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6:00 AM
Thanks for the pdf, @Paul.
 
$\square \!\!\!\! \checkmark$ "Plant seeds" of geometric group theory into @SohamChowdhury
No problem @SohamChowdhury
 
Everything is better with geometry, @Paul. There are no exceptions to this rule.
"A statement that holds for all finitely generated groups has to be either trivial or wrong." - Gromov
I thought this was about topological spaces?
 
Also combinatorial group theory books tend to have chunks about free products and amalgamated products @SohamChowdhury
 
Wow, active chat.
 
@SohamChowdhury I stole that from Gromov
and applied to topological spaces
since it is also true in that context
 
6:03 AM
I need to teach myself more about combinatorics.
It's quite a rich subject.
 
Oh, yes it is.
I think you're doing gfology?
 
I'm currently working on research involving self-avoiding walks, actually.
 
That book started me on "serious math".
@PerplexedGuest must've been some other guy then
 
No, I was also recommended that book.
Let me find it for you!
 
@PaulPlummer I weep with joy at the beauty of the LaTeX in that pdf. God.
 
6:05 AM
As I had a question someone said that book covered.
Ach, I'll just type it out.
 
I'd only done a few chapters. Been a long time, can't remember.
But when you realise that $\frac{1}{1-x-x^2}$ isn't just a rational function . . . you'll be in love. (Results may vary)
 
It was how to simplify this:

$$\sum\limits_{j=0}^{n-2}\sum\limits_{k=1}^m {{k+j}\choose{k}}{{m+n-j-k-1}\choose{n-k+1}}$$
 
I know it is so nice, I am surprised it is not an actually book. It seems like it is just some very well done notes for a class @SohamChowdhury
 
Generating functions feel like magic.
xD
 
I saw that. Yeah, he covers how to solve large classes of such problems.
 
6:08 AM
Funnily enough the above double sum simplifies to:

$$m{{m+n}\choose{n-2}}$$
 
The methods in that book may fail, though. Check out the one on hypergeometric function proofs with computers.
I tried to read *that* book too early - probably accidentally downloaded it when I had first learned in 7th grade what a wonderful place the internet was for "semi-legal" downloads - and settled for gfology instead.
 
Which can be interpreted as the number of self-avoiding walks on an $m$ by $n$ lattice that connect $(0,0)$ to $(m,n)$ which take exactly 1 left turn.
 
Hey, I find it interesting. xD
 
When'd I say I don't?
:)
 
6:11 AM
Maybe one of you combinatorialist can help with this problem here..
Mostly just question "1" is what I am interested in
 
I'm sorry, I really don't understand any of that. xD
 
user147690
Hey @Balarka
 
Surprising that you can have a winning strategy for $F_2$, @PaulPlummer. Very surprising.
 
I have not yet studied math as in-depth as I would like to have.
 
It is basically an OP strategy, the guy doesn't have to do anything :D
 
6:14 AM
What is $F_{2}$? :0
 
Free group on two generators
 
... Yeah, I can't wait to take Abstract Algebra ... xD
 
I have bookmarked your post, @PaulPlummer. I'll read it when I get time.
 
Haha, I was just about to ask if you read it or just saw it
 
Can I get a link to it?
I'm interested.
 
@PaulPlummer I am still pretty sure there won't be any such strategy if you take huge enough groups.
And by huge, I of course mean huge Gromov growth
 
Hmm? what do you mean?
Are you talking group growth (balls at the identity)
 
Yeah, number of elements inside the ball on the Cayley graph centered at the identity element.
 
Free group has exponential growth, and no finitely generated group has growth larger than exponential
 
I'll believe you.
:P
I didn't know that.
 
6:20 AM
Haha. Yah there is polynomial, intermediate , then $2^x$ basically
 
la la la
 
Hi, @DavidWheeler
 
We were just talking about you @DavidWheeler
 
hi balarka
I have been quite busy with work
 
Well, this idea of growth seems quite easy to understand, I guess.
 
user147690
6:29 AM
Where do you work @DavidW?
 
Would I be right in saying that $\Bbb Z$ grows at a constant rate?
 
I work for a truss company
 
user147690
@DavidWheeler Oh cool
 
@SohamChowdhury No, it's not.
 
user147690
$H_3$ has a 4th order polynomial growth rate(atleast in the discrete case)
 
6:31 AM
I mean, if you look at the Cayley graph for a group and see how many elements fit inside a ball centered on the id . . .
@AlexClark what's $H_3$?
 
What if I take the Cayley graph of $\Bbb Z$ with generating set $\langle \pm 1, \pm 2\rangle$ instead of $\langle \pm 1 \rangle$? How can you prove that the Gromov growth are asymptotically the same?
It's nontrivial.
All of it goes back to the idea of quasi-isometry.
 
user147690
@SohamChowdhury Heisenberg 3 group
 
Of course, I'm not saying the entire topic is trivial. You're misunderstanding me.
Does $\Bbb Z^2$ grow linearly (i.e. $O(x)$-ish)?
 
The concept is not even well-defined without the notion of quasi-isometry, so I'd say it's not easy to understand.
 
What of my question?
 
6:33 AM
Well it is not well defined without quasi-isometry, but you can talk about growth with respect to a generating set
 
@SohamChowdhury Well, count!
Draw the Cayley graph and count if you want to.
 
@BalarkaSen I admit, perhaps not in general. But, unlike all your talk of singular homology, this seems at least comprehensible. :P
 
Plus it is not that difficult
 
Sure, you'd be able to understand a lot of it after you learn some metric space theory, @Soham.
 
Is the growth rate $(n+1)^2 - n^2 = 2n+1$ for a ball of radius $n$? @Paul?
 
6:34 AM
@PaulPlummer mehs at that
 
@Paul?
 
@SohamChowdhury That is the difference, you need to calculate the "volume" of the ball, and how it grows
So count all the points in a ball of radius $n$
The growth is quadratic
 
@SohamChowdhury Well, I told you about that one, but you didn't listen :P
I am, personally, fascinated by the theory Gromov developed.
 
@PaulPlummer But in $\Bbb Z^2$ the ball is just a circle.
 
Not ball in R^2-topology, @Soham
The Cayley graph has it's own topology.
And you have to draw the ball in that topology.
 
6:48 AM
So the growth of $\Bbb Z^2$ is quadratic?
 
Which grows quadratically... and it is not a circle, it its own thing, that sort of looks like a circle (especially when looking form afar)
 
@BalarkaSen I must've failed to understand then.
 
No, you're too busy with the resemblance of Cayley graph of F_3 with the meager sponge.
(or whatever it is)
:P
 
Menger*
 
right.
 
6:50 AM
Essentially a 3D Cantor set.
 
anyway, you can see the hyperbolicity from the resemblance with the Poincare disk model.
 
@BalarkaSen Yes, exactly.
 
In another way, take three vertices from the graph of the Cayley graph of F_2
Now join the three vertices from the paths inside your graph.
So you have something like a "triangle" in your Cayley graph with three chosen vertices (formal definition : geodesic triangle)
 
O-kay?
That's cool.
 
If you draw it, and stare at it, you'll see that it's oddly deflated
Like the ones you find when you draw triangles in a hyperbola.
 
6:52 AM
Milnor, I believe, came up the growth for groups, it may have predated him, although I guess gromov did revolutionize it, with his poly growth theorem
 
ah, that man.
 
I was, incidentally, thinking about finding the distances between two points on $\Gamma(F_2)$ in $\Bbb R^2$ a few days back.
 
Deflated is an understatement :D
 
fair enough :P
super-deflated.
@Soham Learn some metric space theory, then we can talk about it in greater detail and more formally.
 
You can check out Hyperbolic Groups Lecture Notes by Howie to get a nice idea of some of this stufff.
 
6:55 AM
the triangle thing I just talked about over there is essentially the definition of \delta-hyperbolicity, once properly formalized.
 
One of my ideas for a post was to talk about the intuition of the Gromov product @BalarkaSen
I actually think it may be my next one, I get to make pictures :D
 
I don't know what that is.
 
@BalarkaSen Just for now, what do you think will be the x-coordinate of $yx^{-1}yxyx^{-1}yx...$? (In that $\Bbb R^2$ representation.)
 
I am not gonna draw it. And define "distance".
You're giving it a metric by equipping each edge with length 1, I presume?
 
Uhm, wait.
I'm just looking at it like $\Bbb R^2$, with the obvious x and y axes.
 
6:58 AM
@PaulPlummer Ohhh, that.
 
@BalarkaSen It was basically used in the original definition for hyperbolic. It is an inner product $1/2 (d(x,w)+d(y,w)-d(x,y))$
 
I just googled. Yeah, I vaguely recall it.
I think it's used somewhere in the definition of boundary of a hyperbolic metric space.
 
then there is a second condtion, haveing to deal with the product
 
Hey @Paul I saw the transcript no Jasper or David
 
to make a space $\delta$-hyperbolic
 
6:59 AM
@BalarkaSen what of it?
@Rememberme he changed his name
 
Who?
 
to user19something
@JasperLoy did.
 
@SohamChowdhury How can you talk about distance without defining it?
 
he does that. i think he's never satisfied with things.
 
@Rememberme He missed david, he came in
Oh no you didn't
 
7:00 AM
I mean, what's the metric in your Cayley graph?
 
Hello @DavidWheeler Remember me?
 
I'm looking at the Cayley graph as a sort of drawing in the Euclidean plane, never mind that it has its own topology and whatnot. I'm just looking at it as a cool fractal-ish drawing.
Now what is the metric in the Euclidean plane? You know, of course.
 
Anyways Hello @DavidWheeler I am Sayan
 
@Rememberme Sure.
 
Then I can't make sense out of your "what's the distance between 1 and [blah]". If you want to retrict your metric to the graph, then the distance is just obtained from squareing, summing, and square-rooting
It's boring, what you're trying to say
 
7:02 AM
Well There is this contest question which has been bugging me since days
Is there any function which plots the smiley face on the graph
 
@SohamChowdhury $d(x, y) = \sqrt{x^2 + y^2}$. To find the distance with this metric, just embed properly, mark the points, forget about the graph , and draw a straightline between them.
 
It sorta depends on what you call "function"
 
Function means
$f(x)=cx+y$@DavidW
 
@BalarkaSen My question is this: if you look at the Cayley graph as a drawing on the plane, what is the x-coordinate of the point corresponding to $\lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} (yxyx^{-1})^n$?
 
Depends on how you embed the graph, of course.
 
7:04 AM
The obvious way, I guess.
 
To make what I mean clear: a circle is not usually considered the graph of a function, but it is the image set of a function $f(t) = (\cos t, \sin t)$
 
Stop playing devil's advocate.
 
Define "obvious way"
 
Please.
 
No, I am not playing anything, it's just that your question is vague.
And I am having a feeling that it's somewhat of a nonsense.
 
7:06 AM
there comes the nonsense!! :P
 
Okay, with $1$ as the origin, and the axes along the lines joining it to $x$ and $y$, respectively.
 
@DavidWheeler So should i consider that as some image set of a function??
 
@BalarkaSen Never mind, then.
 
Not enough, @Soham. Recall that to embed the graph of F_2 you have to shorten your lengths of the edges gradually. How do you plan to do that?
 
@Soham I don't know which group you are taking commutators in.
 
7:07 AM
How are you drawing it in the plane, how long are the edges?
Do they shorten?
 
How much, at each level?
 
That is why I feel its better to use DF
 
@BalarkaSen Enough so that the entire graph fits in a rotated unit square.
 
7:07 AM
@SohamChowdhury Can't say anything unless you give me the lengths of each edge
 
Hm, yes, that is true.
 
Not enough, @Soham.
 
The edge lengths can decrease in any way.
 
I can make the first edge veeery long
And then the other edge veery short
 
Perhaps by half each time?
 
7:08 AM
and so on and so forth
 
That's what I had in mind.
 
@Soham Then it doesn't embed in R^3
 
Halving the edges.
You have to make the edges short exponentially.
 
Yes, so?
 
7:09 AM
That's the whole point.
1 min ago, by Soham Chowdhury
Perhaps by half each time?
 
I imagine it should look like a fractal.
 
^that doesn't work
 
oooooooh.
i understood.
wait, no.
 
OK, correction : it embeds in R^3. Just doesn't fit in the unit square :P
 
For example, let the distance between $1$ and $x$ be $1/2$, the distance between $1$ and $x^2$ be $1/2 + 1/4$, etc. so that the distance between the origin and $\lim_{x\to \infty} x^n = 1$.
Is that not well-defined?
 
7:12 AM
So no unit square, sorry.
 
Hey, look at what I wrote.
 
You have to begin with an edge of length $1/2$, then it works.
 
$2-1=1$ though
 
Now that you have finally formalized you question, I am denying to think about it :P
 
7:13 AM
So? (reply to Paul)
 
I was replying to Balarka
 
Balkara? :p
 
Haha, I think I am going to go to bed in a second
 
@BalarkaSen Anyway, let me properly state the question. What is the x-coordinate of the point corresponding to $\lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} (yxyx^{-1})^n$, when I define the embedding (?) of $\Gamma(F_2)$ into $\Bbb{R^2}$in this manner?
Don't have to think about it, just wanted to make sure my question was well-defined. :P
 
'salright
I don't believe it's hard, though.
 
7:17 AM
You might also be interested in boundary of hyperbolic groups @SohamChowdhury
 
$1/3$, I think, @Balarka.
 
super-cool stuff, @PaulPlummer
 
Ahh... Too many exercises
 
Is sales data for a given time period considered a population or a sample
 
They're just like projective spaces, classifying geodesics instead.
 
7:19 AM
$Int(A∪B)⊆Int(A)∪Int(B)$: takeA=(0,1] and B=[1,2). Then Int(A)=(0,1), Int(B)=(1,2), but Int(A∪B)=(0,2). Remember this question @Balarka I found an example Is this thing right?
 
@Balarka So it wasn't hard at all, just the alternating sum of $2^{-n}$. Anyway. What have you been doing?
 
They are super-cool. Anyways I am going to go read and to bed. See you guys later
 
@Rememberme $\text{int}(A \cup B) \not \subseteq \text{int}(A) \cup \text{int}(B)$
You're misreading the problem.
 
Oh yes sorry i just changed it
Its the other way around
 
Yes. Prove it.
Have you tried to draw anything?
 
7:23 AM
I thought of this example I thought an example might help
But I didnt get anything from drawing@Balarka
 
1-dimensional examples are bad. they won't help
 
Can you help me with the picture@Balarka
 
I don't know what to help with. It's just patently obvious.
Once you convince yourself it is, your job is to translate your intuition into formal mathematics.
 
Is sales data for a given time period, say one year, considered to be a population or a sample when conducting statistical analysis of that data?
 
That's what topology is all about.
 
7:27 AM
Every question I am doing my intuition tells me that it is obvious I always feel it is obvious But I cant write it into words Never happened to me in other parts of maths
 
@SohamChowdhury I have jotted down a few problems I'd like to think about, but haven't progressed with any of them 'till now.
 
@Rememberme if everything were easy, would it be fun?
 
No i am not talking easy Other proofs were damn hard But i was able to write them into words But here it is really difficult to write them into words@Soham
Hey @balarka I thought of a fact Can i use that
$C\subseteq D \implies \operatorname{int}C \subseteq \operatorname{int}D $
 
I guess you can, but I'd prefer if you visualize it first.
 
Fine let me Visualize it again
 
7:39 AM
Why d'you think int(A) \cup int(B) is inside int(A \cup B)?
I mean, why should it be true?
 
Because $int(A \cup B)$ is basically the union of all open subsets of $A \cup B$ and the union will have at least one set which will be in $ int(A) \cup int(B)$ right @Balarka
 
well, you have proved it.
 
What??
 
what you wrote down above is not an intuitive reasoning, but a proof.
 
This is what I have been thinking whole day
And try to find something out of it so that I can draw a picture
 
7:43 AM
not sure what you were having trouble with anymore.
 
Well never mind
@Balarka My friend was talking about some topology prob Mind having a look ?
 
shoot
 
Find the number of topologies on a finite set ...
No idea
@Balarka
 
That's a combi problem.
 
Depends heavily on the set.
Oh, finite.
 
7:45 AM
Its a finite set
 
Well, what @Soham says.
 
Combi means combinatorics?
 
It's just counting.
No need to say fancy words as "topologies"
 
You have cool friends, Sayan.
 
Yes but it will use topology right??
 
7:46 AM
Nope.
 
Nope ? So how do you go about it
I mean solve....
 
How do you solve a combinatorics problem?
Find a generating function
Find a recurrence
Find a combinatorial interpretation
Loads of tricks.
 
Count, Factorials , Binomials, At last logic
 
Do you have Engel?
 
7:48 AM
Engel?
 
Ahh Flipkart
 
Can you solve this problem? "$n$ children sit in a line. If they are allowed to move from their positions by at most one place, in how many ways can they sit?" (Hard version: replace "line" with "circle".)
If not, buy the book.
 
@Remember This, in no way, is a topology problem. You just have to know what a topology is, which I don't think you do.
All you have to do is to count subsets of a finite set.
 
It's very similar to this problem: find the number of disjoint (ordered) pairs of subsets of $\{1\cdots n\}$.
Apparently it's an IIT-JEE problem, but I found it in Engel first.
 
7:51 AM
Ahh Combinatorics Always has been bugging me .....Since I started doing maths
 
hello balarka and soham
 
hello @iwriteonbananas
 
Hello@iwriteonbananas
 
@iwriteonbananas hey
what's cooking?
 
hey rememberme
finishing a bunch of problem sheets
probability theory, integration on manifolds, complex analysis
 
7:53 AM
integrating much?
 
meh
calculating volume of some manifolds
 
Well @Soham $2^n $ will be the normal number of subsets
 
@iwriteonbananas i'm licking some delicious mango preserve off my fingers, so I meant it in a literal way :P
@iwriteonbananas Spivak? Calculus on Manifolds?
 
@iwriteonbananas eh
 
For disjoint I have to think
 
7:54 AM
Think, then.
 
@SohamChowdhury no, im not a big fan of that book
 
spivak is a crappy book, @Soham
 
wouldn't know.
heard a lot of nice things, apparently.
anyway.
 
You recommended me Spivak @Balarka
 
That's the kid one.
 
7:55 AM
Spivak's calculus.
 
btw. remmert is a really good book for complex analysis
 
not calculus on manifolds
 
Oh the Kid one
 
@iwriteonbananas yeah, Pedro likes that book
 
@iwriteonbananas Have you seen Visual Complex Analysis? I'm a fan (from the little I've read)
 
7:56 AM
@SohamChowdhury heard of it, havent used it. have you studied complex analysis?
 
not really
 
but it's what I will use
when I do
it's gorgeous
 
cooleo
have a peak at remmert too when the time comes
 
Well @Balarka Is there any such set such that if i take any point in the set and take a ball of arbitrary radius around the point the ball will always lie inside the set?
I think no....
 
7:59 AM
$\Bbb{R}$
 

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