The Whiteboard

describe Hash do
  let(:hash) { Hash[:hello, 'world'] }

  it { expect(Hash.new).to eq({}) }

  it "hashes the correct information in a key" do
    expect(hash[:hello]).to eq('world')
  end

  it 'includes key' do
    hash.keys.include?(:hello).should be true
  end
end

André

Some Employer X is works with BDD, same boat, wondering how hard is picking it up.

Ixrec

though it was one of those things where I forgot all the details a day after reading about it, so I can't say I've ever (knowingly) tried it

BDD is a bit of a buzzword so there's always the possibility the employer's definition is not the same as ours

like how there are loads of companies claiming to be "agile"

André

I enjoyed the part where you can use a ubiquitous language, looks easy to sit with the end user and write the specs

@Ixrec, nods

user55340

@Snowman co-branding with Ubuntu.

André

I will code a petstore with that and see how that goes. By the way, is petstore is still a good toy project nowdays?

user55340

7:25 PM

Go to Ubuntu.com - click Ask in the header.

Robert Harvey

@André To me, it makes much more sense than TDD, since TDD says "Write your tests first," and leaves it up to you to figure out how that's going to work. Whereas BDD not only gives you an ubiquitous language, but apparently a way to code it also.

user114359

@MichaelT that is what I figured, makes perfect sense for vendor-specific SE sites.

André

@RobertHarvey I tried to work a bit with TDD, I thought it was hard, since you end up coding tests to a unknown domain, so you don't really know what to test

user55340

Lots of eyeballs from there. All that is required is make it look like the brand.

Ixrec

@RobertHarvey what is the "way to code it"? I don't remember that coming up during the brief time I googled BDD stuff

André

7:28 PM

@Ixrec look this

Robert Harvey

7 mins ago, by Robert Harvey

describe Hash do
  let(:hash) { Hash[:hello, 'world'] }

  it { expect(Hash.new).to eq({}) }

  it "hashes the correct information in a key" do
    expect(hash[:hello]).to eq('world')
  end

  it 'includes key' do
    hash.keys.include?(:hello).should be true
  end
end

Choosing a BDD Framework for .NET

@Ixrec NSpec is as obtuse as Moq, maybe more so.

'Course, maybe that's because I don't know either very well.

OO developers have become so enamored with objects, mocks and test doubles that they've lost sight of the power of functional composition, as evidenced by statements like "static methods are not testable."

whatsisname

7:45 PM

yeah

it seems to be easy for people to forget that all this programming stuff is a means to an end

enderland

BUT THINK OF THE CODE COVERAGE METRICS

whoever wrote all the code coverage stat generation tools helped create a monster

whatsisname

"clean code" is a means to an end, and all ideas about clean code, or elegance, or whatever, should be tossed when they aren't suiting your purposes

user114359

@RobertHarvey OO is like playing with Legos. The real joy is not only building a huge Lego castle, but then destroying it in a Lego siege. Wait, does that analogy work?

whatsisname

but unfortunately, good judgement proves to be difficult to mechanize

Ixrec

@whatsisname you'd think having an actual job doing programming would make that really easy; it's kind of hard to forget the business objectives when half your backlog comes from clients and business managers

whatsisname

7:47 PM

well, it also doesn't help that many of the requirements of a lot of software are mind-numblingly boring and awful

Ixrec

even the half that is about code cleanliness is mostly "this part broke and our manager didn't like that so make sure it's less likely to break again by adding tests"

ok you got me there

whatsisname

and people scheming up their gloriously configurable injection containers is a much more intellectually seductive challenge

than ensuring form 254 accompanies schedule B in arizona, utah, and vermont, unless there is a form C

Ixrec

either I find finance way too interesting or I have the good fortune to be working on software slightly more fulfilling than that

user55340

When oo is designed well, it is a beautiful thing. When it isn't, programming sucks

enderland

@Ixrec I turned down a job once because that company existed solely because of obnoxious governmental regulation

Ixrec

7:51 PM

actually, yeah, it's probably just me; I'm the guy on the team who understands the difference between 0, -0, - 00, -0+ and +0

and spent way too much time writing a mini-library to help get that right once and for all

@enderland can't blame you

whatsisname

when oo is designed well, by the wellness standards of a lot of folks, it is miserable too

user55340

Note the following is also true: When ${something} is designed well, it is a beautiful thing. When it isn't, programming sucks

2

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT That article never gets old

enderland

@MichaelT yeah this applies well beyond just software dev

user55340

Small projects can be quite beautiful. Working with other people's code and frameworks... Well. They all suck.

user55340

7:54 PM

Large projects inevitably suck.

whatsisname

additionally, that example of the ridiculous bridge design in that article

Ixrec

until you can break them into small projects!

whatsisname

that is how real world meatspace engineering groups work too

Ixrec

then have endless meetings about the interfaces between all of the small projects

user55340

The key to our profession is knowing how to make things suck as little as possible. But they will suck no matter what.

Robert Harvey

7:56 PM

Says the Java factoryfactoryfactory developer.

Ixrec

does he actually write factoryfactoryfactories?

Robert Harvey

It's Java.

Ixrec

that's why I'm asking; it's plausible

(and I've never worked with Java)

Robert Harvey

It's essential.

user114359

No, us Java guys write AbstractFactoryAdapterStrategies.

André

7:58 PM

It's a joke @Ixrec, I never used factoryfactoryfactories, just AbstractFactoryDecoratorBuilder

Robert Harvey

I'm just busting @MichaelT's chops. You can create the same abominations in C#, though I've never actually seen any.

Except by Microsoft.

Thomas Owens

I can write a FactoryAbstractFactoryStrategyFactorySingletonBuilderPoolDecoratorStateVisitorOb‌serverCommandInterpreter.

3

André

@ThomasOwens, that would be great, commit on git, I want to use this on my next project

Ixrec

I think there's an actual VisitorFactoryBuilder or something in one of the core loops of our product's previous version

user55340

I've got two levels of IoC in this code... So that I can test the blasted thing outside of launching tomcat and connecting to a real database.

Ixrec

8:00 PM

though now we're using Javascript so it's all higher-order functions and callbacks/promises

user55340

@Ixrec ... And it sucks?

Ixrec

sometimes

we've gotten good at making it suck significantly less than the previous version

André

@Ixrec, that's a feat

Ixrec

it helps that most of the team is way smarter/more experienced than me

and I learn fast when around smart people

whatsisname

i think C#, being able to see the bad sides of Java's mistakes, made changes that make the AbstractFactoryDecoratorBuilder type things less likely

user114359

8:14 PM

People just don't get this. You have to be paranoid because there really are bad guys trying to get your information all the time.

user114359

> Here are the secret rules of the internet: five minutes after you open a web browser for the first time, a kid in Russia has your social security number. Did you sign up for something? A computer at the NSA now automatically tracks your physical location for the rest of your life. Sent an email? Your email address just went up on a billboard in Nigeria.
Read more at http://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks#wYAg8Cq7g6J6exqx.99

André

8:30 PM

> ERROR: Attempted to parse HTML with regular expression; system returned Cthulhu

haha :'(

user114359

What a way to start a question:

user114359

-2

Q: How to bolster software engineer resume for domain specific position?

I'm a fresh and naked Computer Science undergraduate going into a software engineering position. Within the next 10-15 years I'm going to be expending a great deal of effort into pursuing my dream job: doing systems design work at Space X (I'm sure this will include other software engineering hat...

user114359

fresh and naked!

2

enderland

@Snowman you have no idea how confusing seeing that as the last message from Whiteboard is on the sidebar...

durron597

@Snowman I would think that would mean a different idiom got thrown into google translate, but I'm not confident about that as I don't have 10k rep and can't see the entire post.

user55340

8:39 PM

> I'm a fresh and naked Computer Science undergraduate going into a software engineering position. Within the next 10-15 years I'm going to be expending a great deal of effort into pursuing my dream job: doing systems design work at Space X (I'm sure this will include other software engineering hats).

My question is... assuming I spend the necessary time on learning aeronautical systems, how do I efficiently and effectively spend my years toward creating a portfolio that expresses my mastery of multiple disciplines? What does a career path look like for the software engineers at places lik…

André

I'm pretty sure it means nu e cru

user41796

@André With a less literal translation of ... ?

André

portuguese somewhat translates to that fresh and naked

nu = naked, e = and, cru = raw, fresh

user41796

Damn Brazilians. You lot have all the fun it seems.

user55340

@GlenH7 remind me to find that karaoke game show...

André

8:41 PM

It's somewhat usable, not vulgar, but not formal expression

user55340

It featured brazillians.

André

hahaha

user55340

(Sometimes)

user55340

@André ... Not the nationality.

user41796

@André "bright and eager" would likely be a comparable meaning. But that doesn't have anywhere near the loaded connotation.

user55340

8:43 PM

Killer Karaoke

Killer Karaoke is an American game show broadcast on the truTV cable channel. The series debuted on November 23, 2012 and features contestants attempting to sing in front of a live studio audience while various attempts are made to disrupt their performances. It is based on the British game show Sing If You Can. In the first season, the program was presented by Jackass star Steve-O with Twisted Sister frontman Dee Snider as the announcer. It was announced on September 16, 2013, that the series has been renewed for an eight-episode second season with Mark McGrath replacing Steve-O as host. Season...

André

> Jackass star Steve-O

wasn't he dead?

enderland

I don't understand the Hot Questions List at all

user55340

Killer Karaoke Man Sings Karaoke While Getting Body Hair Waxed

►

user41796

@André apparently not yet

André

> Baby oh nononononono!

evinda

8:46 PM

Hey @Ixrec Could you maybe reexplain me why the following algorithm does not work?
We look at the elements that are at the midpoint of our interval. If v_1[mid]+v_2[mid]+v_3[mid]=0, we are done. If v_1[mid]+v_2[mid]+v_3[mid]>0, we we decrement the index of the last vector as long as v_1[mid]+v_2[mid]+v_3[k]<=0. If v_1[mid]+v_2[mid]+v_3[k]=0, we are done. If v_1[mid]+v_2[mid]+v_3[k]<0, we incremeent the index of the second vector till v_1[mid]+v_2[j]+v_3[k]>=0. If v_1[mid]+v_2[j]+v_3[k] =0, we are done. Elsewhise, we decrement the index of the first vector till v_1[i+v_2[j]+v_3[k]<=0 . …

user114359

@André Not according to the Interwebs:

user114359

Steve-O

You may be looking for another Stephen Glover Steve-O (born Stephen Gilchrist Glover; June 13, 1974) is a British American Canadian actor, stunt performer, producer, comedian, author, musician, and clown. His entertainment career is mostly centered on his performance stunts on the American TV series Jackass and related movies. Steve-O is known for his eccentric character. He has a number of tattoos, which he refers to as "dumb tattoos", including arguably his most memorable, a self-portrait which covers half of his back and sports the words "Yeah Dude" and "I rock!". == Early life == Steve-O was...

user41796

@MichaelT Clearly I'm old as I don't understand why someone would willingly go through that

André

@GlenH7, Money?

Ixrec

@evinda I believe I showed a simple counterexample yesterday, and the chat has transcripts you can search; is there something specific about it that didn't make sense?

Duga

8:49 PM

This might be better asked in programmers.stackexchange.com — Camron_Godbout 15 secs ago

André

Anyone pushed anything to Maven Central?

user55340

@GlenH7 the chance to be on TV and some $

user41796

@MichaelT but it's generally not that much money

evinda

@Ixrec You gave a counterxample with 4 vectors

user55340

Realize how reality show casting is done.

André

8:49 PM

I got the brazilian reference just now @MichaelT haha

user41796

@André Clearly my price tag is much higher than his

Ixrec

@evinda I'm pretty sure mine had 3 vectors...

though all 3 were the same so it would work the same anyway

user55340

You sign up and list the things you want to and won't do. Then they pick a bunch for casting and say "your chance is on this game show... Do you want to go?"

evinda

@Ixrec chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/21684651#21684651

user41796

@MichaelT I think I failed at You sign up

evinda

8:51 PM

@Ixrec so is the first vector the first line?

user55340

@GlenH7 try working minimum wage for a year or two... Or want to be an actor (that implied the former)

Ixrec

there are only three lines of numbers and they're all identical so it doesn't really matter which one is first or last

user41796

@MichaelT Been there; done that; and for many years...

Ixrec

and it's just one counterexample, the point was to show that the exact algorithm you have now can potentially "jump over" a correct solution so something needs tweaking

evinda

@Ixrec Do we have to change alternately the indices i, j,k ?

Ixrec

8:53 PM

"change alternately"?

André

I act as hobby, don't see why I'd go there for a "chance" @MichaelT, @GlenH7

evinda

@Ixrec If v_1[mid]+v_2[mid]+v_3[mid]>0, we we decrement the index of the last vector by one, and if v_1[mid]+v_2[mid]+v_3[mid-1]>0, we decrement the index of the second vector by one and so on... Or am I wrong?

Ixrec

you're getting warmer

user55340

@André live in LA for awhile. Aspiring actors in every minimum wage job (or screen writers). Waiting for someone to notice them do they can be an extra or minor character. Where better to get noticed than on reality TV?

evinda

@Ixrec Do I have to change also something else?

André

8:56 PM

That's ... sad

Duga

@AdamSmith this question is a poor fit for Programmers - it would be quickly voted down and closed over there, see meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/6483/… Recommended reading: What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow — gnat 47 secs ago

Ixrec

@evinda I think so though I don't have a counterexample on me now, either way I have to go do something else now so you'll have to think through the rest

user55340

It's a career path that basically starts out as a lottery.

user41796

And it only gets worse from there

user55340

Note it also has its jackpots - people making millions.

user55340

9:01 PM

Just that there is an enormous talent pool trying to get in the door.

user55340

Reality TV is largely those who want in, or were in and can draw some eyeballs of where are they now type curiosity.

user55340

(Former coworker (now a pm at Juniper) went to live in LA for a year to be part of the heavy metal scene there - tech jobs allow for telecommuting. Was up in SF for a day every other week)

user41796

Music is only slightly easier to crack into as a field as there are many more local venues that you can play.

enderland

it's easier now, because of the internet

you don't need a big record deal to be distributed

user41796

But getting to the regional and national stage is still a lottery

user55340

9:07 PM

That's why he is a project manager.

user55340

He is smart - had a degree (English - started out as a tech writer) in the tech industry to fall back on. Music was fun more than a career focus. Beer money rather than food money.

enderland

that's why I'm where I am, choice of music vs engineering/tech - one has a fallback, the other... eh

user55340

Photography vs programming...

user114359

Why does the system give me a low-quality question to review when I have no CVs, it does not "look OK" and it is impossible to edit it to be on-topic?

user41796

@Snowman It hates us

user55340

9:19 PM

Career advice for new people: have two options that you enjoy. Pursue one to pay the bills, the other for sanity and fun.

Ixrec

@Snowman I have a few CVs left if that would help

user114359

All I can do is downvote, but after -4 or -6 what's the difference?

user55340

Make sure one can pay the bills.

enderland

@MichaelT yup. I worked at a concert venue for close to 5 years in college, loved it - free live music? heck yeah!

user114359

@Ixrec go through the queues before they reset this evening

Ixrec

9:19 PM

probably won't have time for that unfortunately

user55340

If nothing else, hit up low quality posts review.

user114359

@MichaelT I tell people "you know that thing you love? Maybe it should be a hobby and not a career" when they have a B.A. in underwater basket weaving and complain about earning minimum wage at McDonald's or Starbucks.

user114359

For example: I have a Computer Science degree because "sitting on the couch drinking beer and watching basketball" does not pay the bills.

whatsisname

9:32 PM

What do you tell people that have a degree in something more reasonable but are at starbucks anyway?

enderland

@whatsisname depends on why they are there

I know... far too many folks who basically got liberal arts types of degrees and can't get jobs

whatsisname

it's really easy to just blame them for their situation, but a lot of them have been told since they could talk that if they didn't go to college that they'd be a complete loser

and that you're never going to amount to anything unless you go to college

and we get what we have today

enderland

and that "do what you love!" translates to "you will be able to do what you love for a career no matter how economically viable it is!"

user55340

Hmm... Time to hunt up Mike Rowe?

whatsisname

I was never once asked when I was in K-12 "How are you going to pay the bills after you graduate?"

user41796

9:37 PM

@MichaelT probably easier found in chat search

enderland

@whatsisname a huge area lacking is basic money management

user114359

I have sympathy for people with degrees in useful stuff who are not in their field for reasons out of their control (e.g. bad economy). But at the same time, we all need to be resourceful and find a way to succeed, dream up a feasible plan.

enderland

you get 17/18 year olds basically buying houses -- except with no collateral

user55340

freebeacon.com/culture/mike-rowe-on-following-your-passion

user55340

@GlenH7 notably lacking on mobile.

user15026

9:39 PM

I have a useless as fuck English degree because everybody and their cousin, from career services to friends to family to the Internet at large swore up and down I would be able to get a job in tech writing or marketing or all kinds of things. Fat lot of good that did me.

user55340

yellowhammernews.com/faithandculture/…

whatsisname

several years back my cousin was graduating high school, and was telling about how she was going to go to college at UW Milwaukee

user114359

I have had almost zero unemployed time in 15 years. I did take a month off at one point but I had the cash reserves to do it responsibly. I have always been very careful with my career, looking two steps ahead and always having an exit strategy tucked away just in case.

whatsisname

she was going to major in dance

user15026

Which sucks because I even did the work to make sure it was economically viable before I did it.

whatsisname

9:40 PM

and I straight up asked her "how are you going to pay the bills after you graduate?"

user55340

And I think... kqed.org/a/forum/R201412091000

whatsisname

and my aunt gave me this look of death

user15026

@Snowman yeah, but not everyone can be a dev or whatever. There are definitely some pants on head choices, but there is a lot of other things at play too.

enderland

@AshleyNunn the thing is though there are plenty of other jobs that no one has aspirations for because of this "follow your dream" stuff

user15026

So sometimes, the reasonable plan amounts to Oh hey I will take call centre work or whatevet else that pays relatively decently

enderland

9:42 PM

@AshleyNunn one of my good friends had an econ degree and did that about 10 years ago.... though he is now in more ITish types of work

user15026

@enderland anyone who tells me that they have a dream and it will pay the bills needs a hard shake and then a year in food service so they know where they will end up.

user15026

@enderland Yeah, I am hoping I can eventually transition it to something like that.

enderland

colleges should have internships as mandatory parts of the degree program

user114359

@AshleyNunn I know people who started small, working crappy jobs but also not biting off more than they could chew financially until they figured out what their marketable skills are. I respect that: play it safe, don't shoot yourself in the foot, and take the time to soul-search while also being productive in the economy.

whatsisname

I am very lucky to have never had to face that kind of decision, as my talents (engineering) happen to be a lucrative line of work

enderland

9:43 PM

if you can't get one, then that degree probably doesn't lead to job prospects and you shouldn't go after it

whatsisname

if I made the same decisions but didn't have those talents I'd be dirt poor right now

user15026

@snowman I did that for a while post high school til everyone under the sun swore to me I could get all sorts of things if I got the English degree.

user15026

Which, well, I am where I am.

user55340

I was two classes from ~~a philosophy degree~~ working at McDonald's.

user55340

Either that, or bartender.

user41796

9:46 PM

@MichaelT Better yet, both. Two jobs covers the bills better.

user15026

@enderland Yeah, it's frustrating. Because everyone I know is shocked I am still put of work, because I have the degree. Well, if it was as helpful as you all think, I'd be a bit better off. :p

user114359

@AshleyNunn at least you can more easily get a graduate degree in a different field and not waste all that education.

user114359

There is something to be said for getting an education without any of the general ed classes

user55340

It is the structure for learning how to learn and complete something large and multi year.

whatsisname

yeah but then she could also just end up in the same position she is now, but with added debt or more years of no-income/no improved job skills

enderland

9:49 PM

yeah...

user114359

Join the military. With a four-year degree you can be an officer and make decent money. Pretty sure Canada is the same as the U.S. in this regard.

enderland

college is not a "career starter" its a consumer product

plenty of people think it's the former

user55340

@enderland workplace blog time?

enderland

@MichaelT I've thought about writing a blog. SE has taught me very well how to write certain types of content

whatsisname

it is for a few industries

that it is a career starter

enderland

9:53 PM

My wife is a wicked good writer and I think the two of us could do a really neat blog

@whatsisname but not very many, at all

user55340

What I mean is the workplace SE blog.

user114359

Try to become a licensed physician without an M.D., or pass the bar without a J.D. in all but 3 or 4 states.

enderland

@MichaelT eh we tried that a while ago, not enough interest

user55340

programmers.blogoverflow.com

user114359

I have heard from engineer friends that becoming a (mech/chem/elec) engineer without a degree is really damn hard too

user55340

9:54 PM

@enderland one offs from time to time then?

enderland

@Snowman plenty of lawyers are without jobs because they went to law school and there aren't enough jobs

@MichaelT maybe that's not a bad idea? idk

user41796

@Snowman It is

whatsisname

in many states depending on the field it is straight up impossible

user114359

@enderland irrelevant to the fact that possessing the requisite degree is a career starter.

user41796

No degree means you will almost never be licensed as a professional engineer. Plenty of work without that license. But finding an employer will be difficult without the degree

enderland

9:55 PM

@Snowman I guess what I'm saying is more, "degree doesn't immediately lead to job in relevant field"

whatsisname

as I do not think you can get a PE without a degree

right, obviously a degree isn't a golden ticket as many kids are taught

and of course for many jobs a degree shouldn't be a required bar to jump over, either

user114359

Roughly 1/3 of the working population of the U.S. has a 4 year degree or better. I am all for education, but that is probably higher than it needs to be

enderland

@Snowman of course. but again, college isn't an educational thing at heart - it's a consumer product

this is especially true in the USA, not as bad elsewhere

whatsisname

if by probably you mean "without a doubt", then yes

user114359

@enderland depends on the degree program and university. I would argue it is more of a sliding scale, not a true/false thing

user15026

9:59 PM

@Snowman military isn't even remotely an option for me. They'd never take me. And grad school means more money and time, and I won't get into most of those with a non-honours degree anyhow.

enderland

@Snowman not really, most people go to college for other reasons like we were talking about earlier - and colleges LOVE TO TALK TO THEM

user55340

There was a bit on npr a few weeks ago about the university being part trade school, research, and liberal education. That these are all lumped together makes it confusing for all involved.

user15026

(I know full well how bleak my situation is :p}

user114359

I think we really only need professional degrees (MD, JD, D.Eng, etc) and research degrees. Maybe a couple others like STEM. But much of what our workforce needs would be better-served by vocational and trade schools.

user114359

And yes, I fully understand how commercialized colleges have become. Education is far more expensive than it needs to be for a variety of reasons and the system is broken.

enderland

10:02 PM

@MichaelT no kidding. the research vs education aspect blows tuition way up since most professors don't actually want to nor teach often

like I said earlier, I think you could solve most of this problem if you required degree programs to have a paid internship before allowing people to graduate

make that part of the accreditation process

user55340

And trade focus vs liberal education.

Jimmy Hoffa

10:44 PM

they're called cobras... — Jimmy Hoffa Mar 20 at 18:05

What are called cobras? — Btc Sources Mar 20 at 18:09

ah sometimes digging through my old actions is just as fun as seeing it for the first time

user114359

shenanigans

user55340

11:28 PM

In the "Hey mods, please review this historical lock" department - programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/14650 (was wondering if there were any on topic tags for this question for STCI)

Transcript for