English Language Learners

Anonymous

13:00

@DamkerngT. As much as it's popular to pick on Sk8ter Boi and the like, I think the lyrics suit it pretty well

Damkerng T.

I haven't listened to Sk8ter Boi, but I like I Gotta Feeling. :-)

Anonymous

I think Sk8ter Boi and Friday are probably the two most mocked on that list

Damkerng T.

I wonder what they're mocked about. Word choices? Grammar? Something else?

I haven't heard Honky Tonk Badonkadonk either, but it sounds funny!

I know badonkadonk because of Ellen.

Anonymous

I don't recall where I first heard that word-ish thing

Anonymous

I will admit that Honky Tonk Badonkadonk has lyrics that are hard to listen to with a straight face

Damkerng T.

13:05

Ahh... I suppose so. (Not that I know its lyrics.)

Anonymous

Songs about behinds tend to make me roll my eyes a bit

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

I can't recall one in Thai at the moment. Maybe because they're not to my taste either.

Anonymous

There's lots of them in English

Anonymous

It's presumably a cultural thing.

Anonymous

I wonder if we Americans are the world leaders in songs about behinds

Damkerng T.

13:10

Hehe!

That makes me curious!

Anonymous

There's too much music around the world I don't know much about for me to proclaim with certainty :-)

Damkerng T.

But I assume that it's a tough job to collect the data. :-)

Anonymous

We need a behind-oriented ethnomusicologist on staff!

Damkerng T.

lol

I hope this is not too out of place. However unlikely it is, I remember one Thai girl explained to me why she liked NFL so much like this: I love all those 'behinds' in those tights

"..."

Anonymous

I know people who watch sports for that reason.

Anonymous

13:16

That sort of thing is one reason there are so many female wrestling fans :-)

Damkerng T.

Hahaha!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I don't think anyone really needs someone to tell them which songs have good lyrics or bad lyrics

Anonymous

I think people can come up with their own opinions :-)

Anonymous

And since songwriting is such a personal thing

Anonymous

If you're going to take inspiration, you pretty much have to do it from things which inspire you, right? :-)

Damkerng T.

13:23

@snailboat That's what I thought! I think it'd be better to mention why the author (of that Wikihow post) thinks those song are bad.

(But I assumed that it's a common knowledge among people who're more familiar with the songs.)

Anonymous

Knowledge is generally not countable

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I dunno. I can think of songs with dumber lyrics :-)

Damkerng T.

I can think of songs that I really don't want to hear!

About knowledge, I found that it's a very hard question!

Anonymous

Oh?

Damkerng T.

Yes. It's similar to one thing I'd observed in badminton.

Every time your skill reaches another level, what's wrong in the previous level will become right, and what's right will become wrong!

To an absolute beginner: "Hold your racket high!" (because they're too slow to react to the shuttle)

To an intermediate player: "Don't hold your racket that stiff!" (even when they're holding their racket high, sometimes it's too stiff)

To an advanced player: "Don't hold your racket high!" (because it will become less flexible)

Countability is similar to this sort of thing to me in a way.

Anonymous

13:38

Well, I did hedge and say generally not, though I might dare to say never in the appropriate context, like if we restrict it to Standard Modern English

Anonymous

Historically there were times when it was countable

MARamezani

Pathetic! PATHETIC! Sorry, I can't shout, so I have to shout here

Damkerng T.

@snailboat But even Macmillan still lists one sense of knowledge as singular/uncountable.

MARamezani

PATHETTTIIIIIIIICCCCCCCCCC! They think they teach chemistry?!

Anonymous

But it's true that countability can be a bit tricky because there are alternations between count and non-count in which one is overwhelmingly more common

Anonymous

13:39

@DamkerngT. Let's take a look!

Damkerng T.

Here is one of its example: Candidates for the job must have a working knowledge of at least one European language.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I know knowledge as a non-count!

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani I'm sure you know!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, that's fine.

Anonymous

It's still non-count.

Damkerng T.

13:40

Eh?

Anonymous

You can't have two working knowledges :-)

Damkerng T.

Sure, but it has a, right?!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I remember cases with articles wherein articles didn't count.

As count noun "determiners".

Damkerng T.

Well, I see. Maybe my terminology is rusty. Let's say singular instead.

MARamezani

A similar case is in Persian also.

Speaking of Persian, I blew up the exam.

Anonymous

13:42

If you want to test for count versus non-count, check to see if the word occurs with cardinal numerals:

MARamezani

:(

Anonymous

> a working knowledge

Anonymous

> *one working knowledge, *two working knowledges, *three working knowledges

Anonymous

Note that Macmillan agrees with me that it's non-count (they use the word "uncountable")

MARamezani

@snailboat Good rule of thumb.

Damkerng T.

13:43

I definitely won't say "one common knowledge", but how can I (or any learner) knows when I should say "a working knowledge" or "a common knowledge" and when not.

It's easy to just avoid it, but that's probably not a good idea in the long run.

MARamezani

Hullo @Arau!

Araucaria

@MARamezani Hi!

Damkerng T.

Hi @Araucaria! I saw your recent post. It's still in my reading queue.

MARamezani

Reality check: Have you ever eaten bread with water?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, I'm sorry, my explanation doesn't seem to be good enough so far

Damkerng T.

13:44

@MARamezani Rarely, but it happened!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Doing it now, and they sure put some spices in the bread. Burning to the hell and in the meantime, feeling like a barrel full of water.

I think yogurt is better at fighting a burning mouth.

Damkerng T.

I heard that milk can help. So, yogurt should work too.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I'm not a milk guy. I only drink two glasses every two days or so, and it's because of my parents' insistence.

Not to mention, I drink it in a single breath...So I won't taste it.

Damkerng T.

Oh, is it cow milk or goat milk?

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Milk milk.

Damkerng T.

13:48

Hmm...

Anonymous

What type of milk is milk milk?

MARamezani

@snailboat Milk milk's milk milk.

It's not that creamy though, so it's dishonored from the family of milk milk milks.

Damkerng T.

Okay, I made a decision. I will grow my beard at 70, and I will stroke my beard a couple times every time I say "Hmm..."

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. What good would it do to have a beard in space?

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani I will look a little wiser. :-)

Here on Earth, or in space!

Anonymous

13:52

Plural knowledges spotted! nirakn.edu.au/about-us

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hah!

MARamezani

A robot with beard. o.O

Anonymous

I guess I'll go back to my hedged version :-)

Anonymous

And say "generally not countable"

Anonymous

I always feel safer when I hedge.

Damkerng T.

13:53

@MARamezani Oh, another good thing: I can even swear "By my beard!" :P

Anonymous

Oops, I mean

MARamezani

Trying ~~hard~~ very hard to imagine that profile pic with a long funny brownish cartoon beard

Damkerng T.

@snailboat The National Indigenous Research and Knowledges Network (NIRAKN)!

MARamezani

Somehow lost the order of modifiers in that thing....

@snailboat How do you dare expect me to read three paragraphs to find a knowledges? I wished there was some search function....

Anonymous

If only browsers had such a capability!

MARamezani

13:56

I realize people use how do you dare? just when others have dared or will dare

Anonymous

I assumed you meant How dare you

MARamezani

@snailboat I'm not that old.

And, this ain't D &D.

No idea what that is.

Anonymous

None of what you just said made sense to me

MARamezani

People in Arqade say it much, so...!

@snailboat Good!

Now I'll sleep well at night!

Anonymous

I think all your alternatives sound strange

MARamezani

13:59

Yayya! Someone just didn't understand me!

Anonymous

I don't think it's a matter of age

MARamezani

@snailboat I know, that's the thing.

Just drank two PETs of water now

Anonymous

In the US most people don't know what PET bottles are

MARamezani

@snailboat PET = PolyEthylne Terephthalate

Anonymous

I'm not most people

MARamezani

14:02

If this polymer isn't used in creating water bottles in the US, then that's understandable.

Anonymous

No, the term just isn't used

MARamezani

@snailboat Chemist nerds use it!

Anonymous

Whereas in many cultures it's an everyday term everyone knows

MARamezani

OK, now my stomach feels weird.

Damkerng T.

I think PET is called something else in the US.

(Dunno)

MARamezani

14:05

@DamkerngT. I'm pretty sure it's not called dunno.

Damkerng T.

Surely, what you said is true!

Anonymous

We just don't call them by the material name.

Anonymous

We have lots of PET bottles. We just call them bottles.

MARamezani

@snailboat Well, you definitely aren't material-science enthusiastic kids!

Damkerng T.

nods

MARamezani

14:06

It's just so fancy to use a word that you don't just run into: Tmesis

And phthalate.

Anonymous

Most of the time I run into that word, I'm the one using it, since it's one of my favorite words :-)

Damkerng T.

I remember our government ran a campaign on recycling and promoting PET was part of it. I think most 25+ Thais know PET because of the ads in that campaign.

Anonymous

It's such a rare initial letter sequence!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Heh. It's turned into a boring term in there.

Good thing there are no campaigns here.

Damkerng T.

Oh! How boring is it? Or why is it boring?

MARamezani

14:09

@DamkerngT. :

2 mins ago, by MARamezani

It's just so fancy to use a word that you don't just run into: Tmesis

Or PolyEthylene terephthalate.

Damkerng T.

Should I replace that fancy with dangerous?

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. They aren't that dangerous to a robot.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

MARamezani

I don't understand IUPAC. Should there be a hyphen or space between poly- and ethylene?

O.0

Damkerng T.

I guess you don't need a hyphen there.

Has IUPAC published its style guide?

MARamezani

14:12

@DamkerngT. PolyEthylene makes me uneasy.

Damkerng T.

I bet there must be one.

Anonymous

Tmesis, pshaw, sthick, thwack/thwart

Anonymous

You usually don't capitalize the 'e'

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. What the...? Style guide?

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani A guide about how to write stuff in Chemistry.

MARamezani

14:13

You mean... Nomenclature set of rules?

Damkerng T.

Yes, sort of. (So you can be sure about how to write Polyethylene, if they mentioned it.)

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Of course they have. Gimme a moment.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Reminds me of the Chaos poem!

Anonymous

There's a fair number of ‹phl› words too

Anonymous

Like phlebitis or phlox!

Damkerng T.

14:15

Phlegm is the first word came to my mind!

(I remember that it's in Chaos too.)

Anonymous

If we're going by sound it's less rare, since we have to include ‹fl›, too

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Eww.

@DamkerngT. Well the fastest I could find was the nomenclature of organometallic compounds.

iupac.org/fileadmin/user_upload/publications/recommendations/…

Damkerng T.

That's gonna take a while to load.

MARamezani

Still counts as nomenclature.

Damkerng T.

Judging from other words in that document, I think you don't need either a hyphen or turning e into E.

MARamezani

14:18

@DamkerngT. IUPAC recommends. It's not style guide. It's you-must-do-it-or-you're-out.

Jim Reynolds

count, maybe. But not count count.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Welcome aboard, Houston!

Jim Reynolds

:-)

I don't think I can stay to educate you people, however.

MARamezani

Just about time someone came in and blew our nice chat.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds So it's "sometimes count", perhaps?

Anonymous

14:19

@DamkerngT. Right, it's usually just polyethylene

Jim Reynolds

I don't know. I'm just typing random contrastive reduplicatives, or whatever they are.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I turned e into E, to demonstrate the part that was capitalized.

Anonymous

Reduplication is fun!

Anonymous

It's common across languages, though languages use it different ways

MARamezani

@snailboat It's even fun fun, while most of the ~~stupid~~ grammar isn't.

Jim Reynolds

14:21

O.O

MARamezani

0.O

Anonymous

If I may quote the inimitable Gertrude Stein:

Jim Reynolds

Did MAR just learn how to make strikethrough type, or is it strikeout type?

Anonymous

> I really do not know that anything has ever been more exciting than diagramming sentences. — Gertrude Stein

Jim Reynolds

Which type of type is it? It's not regular type type.

MARamezani

14:22

@JimReynolds It's strikein, You dolt!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I wish to see schools make it explicit that diagramming sentences is part of grammar teaching!

Jim Reynolds

Imbecile.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Maybe the modern sort of diagramming rather than the sort she did, but sure :-)

MARamezani

@snailboat She certainly haven't studied chemistry long enough.

Jim Reynolds

How about the futuristic sort? 0.O

I am Jim Reynolds, grammatical psychic!

MARamezani

14:23

@JimReynolds Oh, you mean psycho?

Anonymous

Some schools still do Reed-Kellogg diagramming, which is a mostly useless skill

Jim Reynolds

In the future, we will refer to everything as the past. O.o

MARamezani

o.0

Anonymous

In fact, learning it might actually make your grasp of grammar shakier than not learning it…

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Eh? Is it wrong?

MARamezani

14:24

@DamkerngT. Not all useless is wrong.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's interesting!

Anonymous

But there are plenty of modern approaches to diagramming which can be instructive :-)

Anonymous

@JimReynolds I already did that, since we were already living in the future in 2015

Anonymous

I can't wait to get there!

Jim Reynolds

O.O

Anonymous

14:25

Poor English tense system. I apologize.

Anonymous

Sometimes I worry I'll break English if I keep bending it.

Damkerng T.

Saying futuristic sort makes me think of bubble sort, quick sort, merge sort, and so on!

MARamezani

In chemistry, a Q with two votes is apparently a hot question. o.0

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, that's interesting! Though the futuristic sort of the past future we live in might be the introspective sort :-)

Jim Reynolds

Not to mention plain ol' sort sort.

Anonymous

14:26

@MARamezani 'Cause it's got at least one answer and it was answered quickly, presumably

Anonymous

Age is a large factor

Anonymous

You can find the formula on meta.SE if you look

MARamezani

@snailboat Have you seen their formula? It's weird, even weirder than them. o.0

Anonymous

That's an odd use of them

MARamezani

@snailboat I remember people didn't pick on that them

Anonymous

14:28

What's its antecedent?

Anonymous

The same as their?

MARamezani

@snailboat SE staff.

Anonymous

Meaning Stack Exchange (staff?)?

Anonymous

It was unclear to me, but I guessed right

MARamezani

J. LS

135 2

Yet annnother chemistry guy in ELL. Dang, what would you do if we weren't here?

Answer: You would've cried...cried I say...

0

Q: Is it correct to use ‘on the 21'st' in this way?

John Smith was born in Netherlands, on the 21'st of May 1981. Is this sentence grammatically correct?

grammar

Now I'm really tempted to ask him why exactly he thinks it would be wrong.

Aren't these kinda Qs off-topic for lack of specified concern?

Anonymous

14:32

Yeah, close for proofreading

Anonymous

Oh wait

Anonymous

They do specify a specific concern in the title

Anonymous

They forgot to include it in the question itself, so I didn't notice at first

Anonymous

But yeah, some elaboration would be good

MARamezani

@snailboat Oh, yeah. I guess titles are more neglected, between great minds.

Anonymous

14:41

@MARamezani I think the month is more often written first, though.

Anonymous

Searching COCA, I find the month is written first 88% of the time, and doing the same in BNC I find 67%

MARamezani

@snailboat May 21st. Yup. That's more soothing to ear and hear.

Anonymous

Just searching for on + month + number and vice versa

Anonymous

So that's not really exhaustive, it's only examining 21 May versus May 21 and the like

Anonymous

But other people have written more comprehensively about date formatting in AmE versus BrE, so I'll leave the rest to what's already written :-)

MARamezani

14:43

Well it's supposed to be the opposite of Persian, and the same as Arabic. Sounds definitely better to have the month at first.

Anonymous

Well, it's not like there's one correct way out of the two in English

user116848

hi

Anonymous

Both the way it's written and the way it's pronounced vary with dialect…

MARamezani

Hmm, this is what a site is telling me about my "personality".

Anonymous

Hello, arrowfar!

MARamezani

14:44

> Like ESFJs, ESTJs value continuity and order. They have outstanding organizational skills, and are meticulous and detail-oriented. Unlike ESFJs, ESTJs are followers and joiners; they are happiest when they belong to organizations, the larger and more mind-numbing the better. ESTJs often have an abnormal obsession with being normal at all costs.

ESTJs thrive in occupations which best utilize their organizational skills, such as driver's license bureau worker, junior bank teller, postal employee, COBOL programmer, or any other profession which involves long periods of mind-crushing tedium,…

@arrowfar Hullo!

Anonymous

Ah, now there's pseudoscience

MARamezani

They're right!

user116848

Hello snailboat!

MARamezani

@snailboat That's why I'm surprised.

Anonymous

With a small bit of comedy mixed in

user116848

14:45

Hi MA

MARamezani

How is it going AF?

user116848

And Hi Damk and Jim!

MARamezani

@arrowfar Interestingly, Majid calls me MA too.

user116848

@MARamezani Same old same old. You?

Anonymous

Just don't call me SB, or people will get me confused with StoneyB :-)

MARamezani

14:47

@arrowfar Baffled by Shrodinger Equation. Yup. Life is great!

@snailboat What's wrong with snailor? I'll stick with it.

user116848

@MARamezani Okay, wow! Like wow! Like wow! Like, like...

user116848

kidding

Anonymous

Yes, unfortunately I threw away my sole bargaining chip when I promised to get your name right regardless of whether you kept calling me that ;-)

MARamezani

German words...Like English didn't have enough hard spellings already

Barauauraurau...

Anonymous

@MARamezani Just remember to type oe for ö

Anonymous

14:49

Schrödinger or Schroedinger

MARamezani

@snailboat Too lazy to find that char in my keyboard.

Anonymous

We English speakers are pretty lazy about diacritics

Anonymous

@MARamezani That's why you type oe instead :-)

MARamezani

@snailboat D'oh, yeah. I just misunderstood what you said at first.

Damkerng T.

Hi @arrowfar!

MARamezani

14:50

Hullo @Fantasier!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Hi!

Fantasier

@MARamezani Yes? Hello!

Damkerng T.

Oh, @Fantasier is here as well. Hello!

MARamezani

How is this possible? There are no first posts to review back at chemistry!

user116848

Hi @Fantasier!

Anonymous

14:51

The umlaut used to be a tiny e

Fantasier

Hello all~

Anonymous

Basically they moved the e of oe over the o

MARamezani

Guess people haven't had chemistry exams for some time.

Anonymous

And eventually it turned into a couple dots!

MARamezani

Or chemistry homework

Damkerng T.

14:51

@snailboat Poor e!

Anonymous

But you can still write oe :-)

MARamezani

@snailboat Now I'm trying to figure out how they crushed e like that.

Damkerng T.

People even skip E in grades!

MARamezani

> holydays

You know, misspellings are a good way to find religious people. :P

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. When I was little, E stood for 'Excellent'

Damkerng T.

14:54

Oh, that's nice!

user116848

I always write "I am". Does it look odd or should I contract it to "I'm"?

MARamezani

Oh, and since we're under some kinda cc, here's the source of the masterpiece.

0

Q: First time and past simple

Can a french man say that: "Is it the first time you came to France?"to english people on holydays in France.I think it is possible because the action of coming to france is finished :they are in France now.Is it better to use present perfect " you have come"

grammar

@snailboat Heh.

Anonymous

@MARamezani It's an etymological spelling!

Anonymous

Like manyfold for manifold

Damkerng T.

@arrowfar When I type I am fine it means that I'm trying to suggest that I'm saying "I am fine".

Anonymous

14:55

There's no reason to suspect that someone who writes holyday is religious, though.

MARamezani

@snailboat OMG, so user5577 is Shakespeare?

user116848

@DamkerngT. Uh huh

Anonymous

@arrowfar I would suggest contracting it in speech any time you aren't specifically stressing the auxiliary (like Damkerng says, "I am fine", emphasizing the affirmative polarity of the sentence)

Anonymous

In casual online chat I would contract it most of the time, but it's not as weird to leave it uncontracted as it is in speech

MARamezani

@snailboat Polarity? You mean... Oh wait a sec. Too much chemistry.

Anonymous

14:58

Polarity: Affirmative ("I like snails") or negative ("I don't like snails")

user116848

@snailboat I see

user116848

Thanks!

Anonymous

If we want to emphasize that a sentence is affirmative, we often stress the auxiliary (and if there isn't one in the sentence, we add do)

MARamezani

@snailboat I know! Wow, in an empty room, the sound echoes nicely

Anonymous

"Here, have some ice cream." "Ahh, no thanks." "What, you don't like ice cream?" "Well, I do like ice cream, but I can't stand mint chocolate chip."

Damkerng T.

14:59

know-- now-- ow-- w-- w...

(I was trying to imitate the wall.)

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