The Whiteboard - 2015-02-09 (page 1 of 2)

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Simon André Forsberg

12:43 AM

Ah, a golden message you folks just missed!

You know Sparky, I'm not really all that interested in you telling me what you're NOT here for, I'm more interested in you telling me how I can get help. In other words, where can I find the PHP that will complete the task I've explained here? I'll remind you that the vast majority of programming languages, such as PHP, AJAX, PERL, C, C++, Ruby, JavaScript, etc. are being used by people who are non-programmers, like you, for example. The bottom line is, people "borrow" various programming to meet their needs. Just like I'm trying to do, Sparky. — user1641354 8 mins ago

calling AJAX a programming language!

user20683

@SimonAndréForsberg I should really get around to making a programming language called Ajax, just to confuse people

1:20 AM

@JimmyHoffa with how close the crowd is, I would venture a guess that projectiles are disallowed, yes.

Hey, anyone know of a javascript/jquery calendar system that takes in ics links? I'd rather not use google calendar and use an iframe.. I want it to be completely customizable

3 hours later…

4:20 AM

This showed up on reddit earlier today: The Parable of the Two Programmers

3

Also, Evening @MichaelT!

how goes the new digs

7 hours later…

11:00 AM

@Eliran, you may want to go investigate the other 6000-odd questions on {big-o, complexity-theory, time-complexity, space-complexity} to see if they need closing as well :-) While it may be a CS topic, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't belong here as well. Complexity analysis of algorithms is of concern to programmers, at least those that want to write efficient code. — paxdiablo 1 min ago

2 hours later…

Simon André Forsberg

12:42 PM

in Duga's Playground, 4 mins ago, by Duga

In that case programmers.se might be a better place, but check their help center first.... — rene 1 min ago

2 hours later…

2:28 PM

@Ampt I feel way better about myself after reading that :-P

@Duga The issue is that a lot of questions on complexity are simple, or somewhat easily answered from textbooks, or somehow repeats information that is available elsewhere. That is, unless StackExchange aims to become a Wikipedia or something...

@rwong Duga is a chatbot... meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/7154/…

3:03 PM

Ad: www.caesars.com/TheLINQ

I'm a PHP programmer and use Symfony2 most of the time, I'm trying to follow PSR rules and have this doubt round my mind all the time, how many lines of code should a class|file have? 120? 150? infinite? Lets said I have a file Product and have CRUD operations, should I separate functions on C and R and U and D files or should have all the function on the same file?

@ReynierPM You are missing the forest for the trees

user41796

27

Q: How many lines per class is too many in Java?

In your experience, what is a useful rule of thumb for how many lines of code are too many for one class in Java? To be clear, I know that number of lines is not even close to the real standard to use for what should be in a particular class and what shouldn't. Classes should be designed accord...

java programming-practices refactoring

Organization exists to serve you, not the other way around

user41796

0

Q: How should I organize a file with many functions in it?

I am writing a web app using PHP and JQuery. I have a file full of functions to access the database. I have function names like createUser, createRole,getUserByLogin, setSOMETHING... Is there an accepted convention, or a compelling reason to choose how to organize this file? (alpha by name, grou...

code-organization

user41796

3:08 PM

0

Q: How to divide OO project into packages?

I'm a hobbyist programmer working on my own projects. I use Java. Until recently my average project was only 1000 LoC. My latest project however is bigger and is starting to exceed 1500 LoC. I estimate it will reach about 2000. I've never organized my classes into packages. All of them were alw...

object-oriented organization packages

@durron597 thanks let me take a look to those ones

@GlenH7 In Soviet Russia, Organization serves YOU!

user41796

Some of those are java focused, not PHP, but the general guidance is still applicable

@GlenH7 yes I can see but that works for me I got the big idea

3:33 PM

@Ampt let's be honest with ourselves- anybody who's worked with a junior programmer knows that a junior doing things in less code, that's more easily readable than what any decent senior does is utter fantasy, a soothe-saying ego stroke for juniors suffering dunning kruger before they've had enough experience to realize how inadequate their skills were

@JimmyHoffa Not all "senior" programmers are created equal

@durron597 that's why I qualified it as decent

there's plenty of "seniors" we've all worked with who've repeated their first year ten times...

I think @Jimmy said "Decent senior", which, to me, means they showered, and put on something other than just a pair of underwear

@JimmyHoffa It's obvious to me that Alan, in that story, is not a "decent" senior.

user41796

@rolfl The Workplace: How do you tell a senior co-worker that they need to bathe more often?

3:44 PM

Oh, that's easy, you tell them that "Bob" the DBA like his grungy look.

@durron597 I figured it was relying on the average senior and average junior because the parable isn't about the individuals skill but the way experience and industry shapes people, the moral it seems to be trying to sell is that the extraneous we end up with after years of being trained not to follow our instincts is of typically worse results and overly-complexifies (yes I did just use that word) shit that following a simple uneducated mind wouldn't cause

but I think a better lesson I've learned over the years is: Process, approach, experience, all of these things pale in importance compared to individual ability. 4 people who are good at this stuff will do good work no matter how bad their process, approach, or how minimal their experience. 4 people with tons of experience, the best agile tooling, processes, highest pay and best environment who are bad at software will do shit work.

Also, time to introduce the difference between IQ and SQ.

@JimmyHoffa I agree, but I think ability is a continuum, and I also think that good work environment is multiplicative with ability

Some people start out pretty decent and become quite good, some people require a bit of mentoring, some people start out decent but never get better and some people start out awful and no amount of mentoring helps. I have absolutely no idea what makes one person good at any of this vs. another, but the results speak for themselves is all I've come up with.

Most people are aware of IQ, and how it relates to 'smart' people, but few people know that SQ is orthogonal to IQ.

Stupidity Quotient is the propensity for people to do stupid things.

People can have both a high IQ and a high SQ.

3:48 PM

haha that's awesome.

The problem with groups, is that the IQ is additive... so, the intelligence of a group is proportional to the sum of their IQ's....

but the group SQ is multiplicative.... the product of the individual SQ's

@durron597 I'm not saying these things don't aid good folks to do better, just that good folks will in my experience figure out how to do good work regardless of the failings they're surrounded with, and shitty people will fail no matter how effective their environment should be at causing success.

It's where mob mentality comes in.....

How to get really smart people to do stupid things, is to get lots of smart people in one place, and then let the SQ factor overrule....

@rolfl haha this is a line of argument I've never heard before, and is awesome. I'm going to have to make sure I remember this...

@rolfl Like the mensa episode of the simpsons ;)

3:51 PM

So, sometimes, it's not about how smart the people are that work for you, but how not stupid they are.

just a whole 'nother way of saying, none of us is as stupid as all of us.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! I am!

@JimmyHoffa so you don't think that there was ever a problem made larger by someone who didn't understand the problem, and in doing so made their work more impressive?

@Ampt Derek Jeter

One of the worst fielding shortstops ever due to low reaction time. But he made it look amazing ;)

user41796

Vincent Edward "Bo" Jackson (born November 30, 1962) is a retired American baseball and football player. He is the only athlete to be named an All-Star in two major American sports. He was named the greatest athlete of all time by ESPN. While at Auburn University, Jackson won the 1985 Heisman Trophy, annually awarded to the most outstanding collegiate football player in the United States. In 1989 and 1990, Jackson's name became known beyond just sports fans through the "Bo Knows" advertising campaign, a series of advertisements by Nike, starring Jackson alongside Rock and Roll Hall of Fame musician...

3:53 PM

@GlenH7 fieldingbible.com/jeter.asp

user41796

Bo was amazing to watch

@Ampt no that's not my point my point is that juniors do shit work, and sometimes the fantastical rock-star nonsense and buzz about the quality of young inexperienced guys banging out tons of code get's under my skin because it's as nonsensical as the whole "We have an open office plan, doesn't that sound fun?" marketing companies do (NOBODY LIKES OPEN OFFICE PLANS, WHY IS THIS A MARKETING LINE???)

@JimmyHoffa I think the story lost you when you got to junior vs senior. I think the story holds if you make them both senior devs, and opens up more discussion on how we measure effort of work in our industry

Is it lines of code? Man hours spent? Artifacts made? Problems solved?

Anybody who's worked with many juniors knows, they do incomprehensible things just because they haven't built up good habits yet, they write ncubes like it's the only way to code and if (something == true) when you can just if (something) and endless reams of stuff like that which always makes their code larger than anyone who's done this for a while and become any good

user41796

I like the days where I can measure productivity by lines of code removed.

3:56 PM

Or maybe worth is measured by how much you're needed to maintain the crap program you wrote so no one can get rid of you unless they are willing to take over that rwaponaibility

@Ampt yes. If it was both seniors it would make a lot more sense. I do understand the moral (I think), as I described above:

> the moral it seems to be trying to sell is that the extraneous we end up with after years of being trained not to follow our instincts is of typically worse results and overly-complexifies (yes I did just use that word) shit that following a simple uneducated mind wouldn't cause

if they're both seniors it changes to like you said - overhead and metrics and approach rather than how approach is colored by years, which is what it seems to be trying to tell right now

Nah, I didn't like that moral. I think it's more about how one person is about solving problems with thought and the other with a well trusted toolbox of software development

I took away from it that the problem wasn't easier for one person, just that one person understood it better

The guy with the team and the project timelines didn't understand it as well and therefore built a larger application to cover his unknowns

@Ampt this is a much better moral.. true years do color our approach and tend to make people go from critically thinking about their problem to using a toolbox of design patterns writing factory^3s

but I'd rather take years out of the equation because factorycubes are better than the ncubes juniors write

it still holds that the one who understood the problem better got he worse review because of how he tackled the problem

@JimmyHoffa What are factorycubes and ncubes?

4:00 PM

I just felt that it was an interesting story worthy of a little discussion :)

Not saying that our industry is horribly broken like some people

@durron597 things to be avoided

@Ampt and this is something I'm watching right now: A team here is terribly past their deadline and the result so far? They've been given free lunches to help them keep at it and all kinds of things, I know when they finally get done they'll be heralded for clutching success from the jaws of failure, when the truth is what they're doing should have been done ages ago and they're just terrible.

that does happen, and it is shitty and irritating

@Ampt I gathered that

On code review we see a lot of new-to-programming issues.... some are real head scratchers.

So it becomes a question of how do we measure success? Obviously right now it seems very tied to effort

Only a skilled dev can truly measure the quality of code for solving a problem

To a manager more loc=better

@Ampt yeah, it's one of those reasons you're always better being at a company that's managed by technical people, it takes an understanding of the technical challenges to evaluate these things

4:03 PM

Some days I wish you could just turn your code into a physical being

No one has a hard time estimating the value of a building

Are the windows installed? Do the lights turn on?

@Ampt and suddenly you're applying for japanese software companies?

Sometimes I feel like people are valuing your software like its a car. And that car is in a garage. And they are locked outside

You can describe it to them, and they judge you on that

@Ampt Are the AC ducts properly sealed so you won't get mold in the walls in a year or two?

@Ampt see but it's not that easy - I don't know enough about a building to look it over and tell the difference between the one with shoddy wiring where the lights work, but in about 3 months it's going to start a fire or intermittent blackouts will start occurring vs. one that will be fine forever

"Well Ampt claims he spent 40 hours this week polishing his car, it must be really nice! A+"

4:05 PM

but I can look through a code system and estimate it's maintainability. Understanding of the specific technical challenges is key I guess is what this fact points out

@JimmyHoffa the fact that you know that makes a difference says a lot about he difference between our industries no?

I hate open office environments

The fact is that people spend their lives and money on buildings day in and day out

They are innately aware of what goes into making and maintaining them. Software - not so much, yet.

ah I suppose that makes sense. I can presume all sorts of things that could go wrong in a building, but outside of software folk no one can presume any of the things that could go wrong in software...

Sure there are things you probably aren't aware of in a building like sizing gas piping for an rtu

But you'll notice when the ac goes out, no?

Nowadays if an app crashes you say "huh.." And open it again

4:09 PM

Plus it's "just code, how hard can it be"

@enderland chambers round

@JimmyHoffa my time spent googling factorycube and ncube has revealed nothing useful

@durron597 that's because I made the terms up.

N^3 parsing

Jan 2 '14 at 20:03, 3 minutes total – 15 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Apr 24 '14 at 16:08 by Jimmy Hoffa

^-- ncube

Great weather we're having today!

factorycube refers to the AbstractPersistenceFactoryManagerFactoryAdapterFactories that design patterns nuts are so fond of

@Ampt pretty sure by now everyone knows this

4:14 PM

@JimmyHoffa it's why we love you!

user41796

@JimmyHoffa At least most of the regulars do

Also, I'm gonna hop on insurgency for a bit tonight, you in?

@Apmt - it could be worse:

user image

@JimmyHoffa Thanks

"Freezing Fog", my new favourite meteorological term.

4:15 PM

@rolfl -40 C = -40 F

Yup, and both are crazy cold.

I do not believe my car would start in that weather

At least not without a block heater

@rolfl just tell people 234.15 K, they won't know

234 degrees?!?!? THATS HOT

user41796

does -40C === -40F evaluate as true or false? IOTW: Are they of the same type?

@GlenH7 False. They aren't the same object reference

4:18 PM

Ugh. Triple equality? What does it even mean

Triple equal, all the waaaay

2465

A: Does it matter which equals operator (== vs ===) I use in JavaScript comparisons?

The identity (===) operator behaves identically to the equality (==) operator except no type conversion is done, and the types must be the same to be considered equal. Reference: Javascript Tutorial: Comparison Operators The == operator will compare for equality after doing any necessary type c...

Reason #7495728 I dislike JavaScript

@GlenH7 Aw, my renewed hatred for javascript star went off the list

user41796

@durron597 I didn't think it has to be the same object; just the same object type

@GlenH7 I'm a Java programmer.

user41796

4:21 PM

For example, the number 1 and the string "1" will evaluate as true with 1 == "1" but will be false with 1 === "1". Or so I thought.

Also in other fun office politiics, got the go ahead from all my org managers to basically say "sorry, not on this project anymore" to my previous project

Which was about perfect timing since they scheduled a meeting today

@enderland Are you going to go to the meeting to tell them the bad news? Or just decline the invite

I'm not sure. It mainly is annoying the language my previous colleague uses which is like, "I need you" rather tahn "can you"

Like, "ok, just impose on my time when I'm off your project because you all failed to plan for a longer term support for the project"

@Ampt likely. It's become my go-to time-waster between couch time and reading in the evenings

Is it "I need you" as in "I need you. Please!" or as in "I need you to come to this meeting today"

4:26 PM

@durron597 the latter

definitely the latter

133

Q: How can I prepare for getting hit by a bus?

As a member of small teams, I had significant responsibility. Whether driving progress by organizing meetings or maintaining/creating/understanding a large percentage of specific technical information, I often had such responsibilities. Sometimes I was the only person working on technical aspects...

work-environment team resignation knowledge-transfer

Yeah sounds about right @GlenH7

user41796

@durron597 Ender definitely ought to read up on that one. :-)

@durron597 maybe a bit of predicting the future...

user41796

@enderland I couldn't get the patronizing tone quite right though....

4:28 PM

Technically it's because they can't fund it, but basically same thing

@enderland I notice that question has no accepted answers :-P

All the answers are software specific to other software devs

> Do NOTHING differently. Work as though you are NOT going to be "hit by a bus" tomorrow.

The "hit-by-a-bus" problem is an organizational problem and not something that needs to be explicitly addressed in your own work-objectives.

Your co-workers and management should be thinking about it, but I think it is too much to expect individual contributors to work as though they might literally be gone tomorrow. If management is oblivious to the potential problems here, it means they're totally out of touch or maybe you're not as indispensable as you thought.

I guess that's what ended up happening :)

Nah I told them about it, they damn well knew the problem was coming

@enderland You could just forward all emails from that team to your new boss

Just blindly and without comment

4:30 PM

@durron597 lol

Oh, you said the other day you didn't want to burn bridges. Never mind

I'm going to have to burn bridges though, my previous coworkers have unrealistic expectations for how much previous employees support their previous work

:19977672 well that's awkward. I think they could pay me overtime right now if I wanted

but I just got married. F that, I don't care about 1.5x pay right now

@enderland Are you not full time?

@durron597 my company has options for paid overtime for salaried people

user41796

@enderland I'd echo that ordering of priorities.

4:33 PM

Right

I'm single, please forward ALL THE OVERTIME!!!11!!!!1!

I really want a permanent position where I'm currently at, though, so I can tell them completely "f off" basically - right now they might be able to create a FTE and have me back on it

@Ampt lol

user41796

@Ampt The funny bit is you're working for a company that used to be (still is?) notorious for OT

@GlenH7 as with all things: depends on the project

user41796

@Ampt apropos of nothing; how bad was your pct util for last year?

4:35 PM

Oh it was 0%

user41796

ouch

It's a long story about sliding Evan periods and blah blah blah but basically it didn't count

@GlenH7 Another term I don't know what it means

Eval periods*

Nah, it's all good. No one got evaluated for those 3 months.

Is that a consulting term for usefulness of time or something?

user41796

4:36 PM

@durron597 percent utilization. The metric by which all consultants' career live and die by.

user41796

@durron597 More appropriately, percent of time spent billing a client.

I'm here and the client loves me so I'm sitting pretty

@Ampt Do you have a company laptop yet?

user41796

@Ampt And the on-site Partner is happy with you?

(It helps that the client moves so slowly that I just caught up on a weeks worth of work over a morning coffee)

@both yes.

4:38 PM

@Ampt How long did it ultimately take?

user41796

@Ampt I sometimes miss working at clients like that

1.5 weeks

user41796

@enderland You should get the current group to convert you instead. :-)

@GlenH7 I had to take a week off because of the death of a family member and I'll be damned if it didn't work awesome for me

user41796

@Ampt Oh! so they escalated that for you

4:39 PM

Convert me?

As in permanent??

Oh please no

@GlenH7 working on it. VERY MUCH working on it

I get no codez here. Send halp

user41796

@Ampt My comment was to enderland. And he'd like to be converted.

Doh. Reading is hard.

user41796

@Ampt You just need some extra helpings of OT then... :-)

4:40 PM

I'm on my phone so...

Client laptops are more observant than my employer

Tried to go to gmail and got an emailed warning...

user41796

Why hasn't Java stolen the idea of wrapping getters & setters on a declared property like C# does?

user41796

The mindless boilerplate Java still requires....

Luckily it was only week 2 and therefore I hadn't gone through orientation so "I didn't know" worked

@JimmyHoffa they have the matchmaking system down to a T. There's almost 0 downtime unless you want it

Opposite of payday where you play for 1/4 of the time and try and join matches for 3/4

user41796

PvZ:GW has a decent matchmaking system but is a bit slow. Then again, I'm horrifically impatient.

@GlenH7 That's what an IDE is for. And because operator overloading is worse

4:43 PM

@MichaelT someone said IDE. Now's your chance!

@Ampt To pimp IntelliJ?

I'm starting to think you guys have a contract with jetbrains

Ugh I wish. I would buy so much coffee with all those nickels

@Ampt Just brew full pots instead of K-cups and Starbucks

@enderland "I am but I'm looking for 50% more money than I was last time we spoke"

Lol that's how it always works!

Ugh how do I star on mobile

@Ampt I didn't even know you could chat on mobile

user41796

4:47 PM

@durron597 it's painful

@Ampt You use chatsey (on android)

@durron597 he wanted my salary expectations

user41796

<cue Austin Powers Beeeelion dollars quote/>

@Ampt there's tons of public servers, it doesn't look through their lot of hosted servers unlike payday. any games based on the steam engine will be this way because it's so easy to host steam servers tons of people do it

And a coworker says there is an internal need for a person from his old team

man today is just nuts

4:58 PM

17 mins ago, by GlenH7

Why hasn't Java stolen the idea of wrapping getters & setters on a declared property like C# does?

AND I got an email friday from a previous person I interviewed with internally saying "you interested in jobz? maybe we haz position"

@GlenH7 In a sense, it has.

All the IDE's can infer the boilerplate for you and add it with a almost single key-press.

16 mins ago, by durron597

@GlenH7 That's what an IDE is for. And because operator overloading is worse

ahaha.... yea

There's something about writing a Java container class like:

public class Person {
    private final String firstName, lastName;
    private final Phone cell, home;
}

then just pressing the button to create the getters, and the constructors that populate them.

@durron597 perfect example of people not noticing technology failures because of tooling they helps them work around it, instead of solving the root problem.

5:02 PM

even with auto generated code, the C# way of properties is still a lot nicer when using autosense

@JimmyHoffa The root problem cannot be solved because every time someone uses operator overloading, God kills a kitten

user41796

C# makes it super simple:
public class Person {
public int MyProperty { get; set; }
}

@durron597 ... that's a very strange allusion. Not sure I follow your deduction, or even know what it's supposed to mean

user41796

Stupid formatting...

Every time you masturbate... God kills a kitten

"Every time you masturbate… God kills a kitten" is the caption of an image created by a member of the website Fark.com in 2002. The image features a kitten (subsequently referred to as "Cliché Kitty") being chased by two Domos, and has the tagline "Please, think of the kittens". == Origin == According to a New York Times Magazine article on Domo-kun, "Any major exhibition on the history of clowning around on the Internet would have to include [this image]". An article from ICv2 stated, "This phony [Public service announcement] is quite out of character with Domo's image in Japan." The phr...

user41796

5:05 PM

And you can apply public | private to the get & set statement. Public get and private set for instance.

@durron597 I understood the result of your statement, just absolutely no clue how or why you got there or stopped at operator overloading from properties...

because foo.x = bar should not have non-obvious consequences EVER

(in this conversation, we are overloading "=")

@durron597 uh then you shouldn't write imperative programs, side effects are the way of the world in Java and C# and stateful imperative OO languages like them

@durron597 that shit has side effects throughout Java and C# programs all the time...

All of the side effects in Java are done by the compiler and VM, they aren't modified by the user except via nasty reflection hacks

go work in an immutable language where there's no such thing as assignment, only definition, and then the equals sign no longer causes shit to break in non-obvious ways

5:08 PM

give me an example where = has a nasty side effect in Java that doesn't involve someone being really stupid with reflection

@durron597 uh, setting a field on an object will most definitely have side effects on the system.

I don't like my language making it easier to do stupid, unmaintainable crap

@GlenH7: of course it wasn't always that way, IIRC

@durron597 Then go write Haskell...

user41796

@whatsisname Nope. Changed around .NET 3.5 or 4

user41796

5:10 PM

And then they saw all the useless boilerplate....

@durron597: any language worth using will make it easy to do stupid, unmaintainable crap

it's a fact of life

any language that makes it impossible to do stupid, unmaintainable crap, will in the same stroke make it impossible to solve challenging problems

If you don't understand how changing the value of a field can have side effects throughout a system, just think on it for a while I'm sure you'll come up with something.

@whatsisname trueish...

the curve between safety and capability is not linear, there are optimal data points in it, though true, none are without drawbacks.

definitely

@JimmyHoffa I work really hard to make my code encapsulated

The only time I ever have public non final fields is if the class has NO other code except maybe a dumb constructor

0

Q: How to be sure that other programmer in my team won't steal my project?

I am working on a hobby game project which might be profitable in the future, for that I am not working alone, there is a 2D artist and a composer and am currently looking for another dev. I want to use something like dropbox or other tools to simplify file sharing, but I am afraid that the othe...

project-management teamwork

"you can't"

5:21 PM

using a .setFoo( setter makes it very clear that there are other possible consequences. but = does not

There's still no way to ensure .setFoo only does a set and not other stuff though

@durron597 so no true scotsman allows the = sign to do dangerous things, but amongst operator-overloaders all true scotsman blow up the world with their horribly unsafe language?

@durron597: until 99% of the .setFoo's you see in the wild have no other consequence

then it might as well be =

@whatsisname In my own code I try to avoid even .setFoo

why? so anyone using it has to guess your unique paradigm?

5:23 PM

@durron597 you just said you use fields in a safe way so = cannot do unsafe things, then said = can't do unsafe things. These statements are opposable, if you didn't protect yourself from the dangers the assignment operator presents, then it could do unsafe things, you recognize this otherwise you wouldn't be careful with how you implement your fields.

@whatsisname My paradigm isn't unique. The idea is that if one class is managing another class, then why isn't that code in the managed class? Unless the managed class is just a data structure

So is the reason you don't do
myFoo.Foo = 3

to avoid someone having overloaded the equals operator?

@enderland I think Java programmers are just afraid of symbols. = isn't even a letter, you have literally no idea what it might be doing... ;P

@JimmyHoffa isn't even a letter? o_O

@enderland letters aren't technically symbols, that's why it's safe to use tons of them, in all sorts of strange combinations like FactoryAdapterManagerAbstractStrategyRepository

5:26 PM

I find object.method().anotherMethod().yetAnotherMethod().doSomething() just as offensive as AbstractPersistenceFactoryManagerFactoryAdapterFactories

I think we can all agree

that java just straight up sucks

@durron597 ;D I wasn't presuming you write fcubes, even if it is fun to make jabs at the zeitgeist of The Java Programmer, presumably if you're around here you likely know better

@whatsisname truth be told this is far from agreed upon, strange I know, but there it is.

lol

@JimmyHoffa I know you weren't, I was saying that I don't like set for the same reason as other law of demeter and SRP violations, a class should be responsible for its own data

encapsulate a class's behavior so that it can only do legal things and nothing else

speaking of C#, is mono any good? honestly my biggest gripe with C# is that i hate winblows

all this property disagreement aside

mono is neither "good" nor "bad"

5:30 PM

@durron597 which is a completely unreasonable gripe :P Professionalism should dictate subjectivity be thrown out, I'm baffled by some of our PHP web guys who literally hate the idea of .NET just because they believe MS is evil

it fulfills a particular purpose, and if your c# program lands in monos target area, it's good

otherwise, it's useless

Coders should choose technologies based on technical merits not personal biases against companies or cultures

professionalism does not mean act like a robot

@JimmyHoffa If it makes you feel better I hate PHP too

and being concerned about .net because of MS is a legitimate concern

5:31 PM

Also, I hate MS for professional, technical reasons, not because I think MS is evil

the fact that it's not utterly obvious to people that this should be all they look at in making decisions, is baffling to me.

I think, as a corporation, Apple is more evil than MS

being beholden to the roadmap of MS is a technical decision

@durron597: these days, no doubt

@whatsisname yes! I agree. But this is not why 99% of people are against MS products

@JimmyHoffa Consider me in the 1% then

5:32 PM

@JimmyHoffa: personal affinity for a language is important too

I have never had anything but bad experiences with MS Server, with IIS, with SQL Server, with Exchange, etc.

@whatsisname Sure, but if one language is clearly more meritorious than another, doesn't it seem logical that your affinity would change as such? I mean I know people love their old clunker cars sometimes, but only the dumbest of them turns down a free Lexus for their 80's crappot.

I know that many people use these products and they are fine

But for production anything, give me *ix any day of the week

@JimmyHoffa: it depends. Even if a one language/platform is significantly better than another on technical grounds, my enthusiasm or familiarity for that other platform may easily exceed any technical advantage of the "proper" choice.

The IT department on the other side is all windows based. And the main IT guy has told me so many exchange horror stories

he can barely figure out how Microsoft DNS works. And I taught myself bind9 and got it working on my network in less than a day

and I have a lot of respect for this guy, I don't treat this as a guy who such things reflect poorly on him and his ability

user55340

5:39 PM

@Ampt doing well. Interesting big projects. No chat on desktop - constrained to mobile during day, hence terse.

> Linux malware includes viruses, trojans, worms and other types of malware that affect the Linux operating system. Linux, Unix and other Unix-like computer operating systems are generally regarded as very well-protected against, but not immune to, computer viruses.[1][2]

There has not yet been a single widespread Linux virus/malware infection of the type that is common on Microsoft Windows; this is attributable generally to the malware's lack of root access and fast updates to most Linux vulnerabilities.

@whatsisname sure, but these are objective points, that's all I'm saying, people use subjective garbage about culture or corporation to make decisions all the time rather than looking at the relevant points like you are bringing up.

@MichaelT Now that you have the new job do you still plan to throw your hat in the ring in the next Progs moderator election?

@whatsisname if somebody tried to swap my car for a leer jet I'd throw a shit fit because I don't know how to nor do I want to fly, regardless of it's superiority to driving. But I wouldn't turn it down because Jet's are only for stupid jerks

@JimmyHoffa s/leer jet/ferrari stick shift/ s/fly/drive a stick/ <-- better analogy

5:44 PM

@durron597 c'mon, who doesn't know how to drive a stick? I would take that in a heartbeat.

@JimmyHoffa Who doesn't know how to program in Java? :)

user41796

@durron597 I've known people who quit their jobs after being made Exchange admins.

I'd turn both the leer jet and the ferrari / sell them

the maintenance costs would be awful

@GlenH7 Not surprised. Of all my complaints about MS products, Exchange is without a doubt the worst one

user41796

@whatsisname I was wondering about that the other day. Just how much does it cost to maintain a ferrari or lamborghini?

5:46 PM

@GlenH7 all the money.

user41796

@durron597 Just seems like such a "kiss of death" admin role

@durron597 I know how to program in much better languages though so I would gladly choose something else :P

@GlenH7 Depends on how much use you get. My Boss^^^ races each of his. And his two porsches

@GlenH7 pshaw, worth a mint, just a miserable job. Though in all reality, exchange for your email from the consumer side is simply the best. We already had a discussion here where I challenged you guys to point me towards another product that fulfilled exchange's abilities and basically came up totally dry.

but the server I've only heard horror stories about setting up and maintaining those things

same goes for most MS servers that aren't developer based (SQL Server and IIS are typically very well received by people who've basic training in them)

user41796

@durron597 My problem in answering that is I don't currently know anyone who owns any of those. And I would image racing would have higher maintenance costs than average street driving

5:48 PM

@JimmyHoffa How about a product that doesn't store all the email in ONE GIANT FILE

@GlenH7 I don't know anyone who owns those and uses them for only the occasional Sunday drive

@durron597 how about - who cares about the flaws, when nothing else meets its featureset? A featureset basically everyone uses... this is why office is rolling in dough. People bitch and moan but nobody has created anything that can compete in featureset (...because office has like a 20 year headstart on EVERYONE anywhere near the market these days)

I do know that at the level of wear Boss^^^ puts those cars through they're constantly in the tire shop and the mechanic

@JimmyHoffa Office is not rolling in dough because of feature set. Office is rolling in dough because Worse is Better

user41796

@durron597 If I were ever able to afford one, I'd want it to be a regular driving car. Not something cooped up in a garage waiting to get out.

... I like how you didn't even try to argue my point, just stated something else with no explanation

people who are really good with excel know all the keyboard shortcuts, for example, and use them at the speeds that other people type English. The cost to retrain them to use LibreExcel would be quite high

5:52 PM

(yes I know the article, I'm quite familiar with it and it's follow-up)

As an Excel wizard, I will say that ability is quite beneficial but also reasonably translateable

@JimmyHoffa People don't pay for Office because it has more features. People pay for Office because it was first and people are trained in it, and Microsoft packaged trial versions with their OS

Being really good at excel works well in, for example, google spreadsheets too

And because large corporations are slow at changing things. And because Microsoft has done some brilliant business strategies like auto renewing maintenance contracts (to automatically upgrade people's versions via inertia)

@durron597 true, I meant my argument regarding exchange; I have long used open office myself with no noticeable difference

5:54 PM

I can't speak to Exchange's features beyond normal email server features. You may be right but I don't know enough about them to be able to take a side.

exchange is one product I've yet to find anything that can compete with. Hellish as it's configuration and support is

user55340

@durron597 still possible. Evenings need to settle out a bit.

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