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3:12 AM
Q: Find the letters that complete these five patterns

Matt MaloneUpdate: I have restyled this puzzle as a multi-puzzle set, comprised of five puzzles of increasing length. Also, a new hint. Complete the last line in each of the following five series: Puzzle 1: "Using" is E "Desist" is I "Visits" is E "Design" is ??? Puzzle 2: "Asia" is H "Cuffs" is S "...

9 hours later…
12:36 PM
12:58 PM
@Doorknob冰 - You're the only mod we haven't heard from since Victor's meta question. Any comments?
Maybe we have to flag some in order to get mods here
or say something rediculously offensive
your arse is hideously deformed, like two badly parked ford transit vans
we could just keep going @Doorknob冰 @Emrakul @Kevin until they come
Are you sure about @Doorknob冰 @Emrakul @Kevin ?
This would call @Doorknob冰 @Emrakul @Kevin all the time...
@Doorknob冰 @Emrakul @Kevin Oi!
1:05 PM
Love is all around again
if @Doorknob冰 @Emrakul @Kevin don't respond, can we grass 'em up for not doing their job as mods?
A Eunuch has more balls that you
green lamea
hurry up @Doorknob冰 @Emrakul @Kevin
@Doorknob冰 was 'seen' 19min ago
they're scared of us
@ae sorry allow me to rephrase. It was an important message and I believe everyone has something to bring to this discussion, but I believe what you should bring, is silence.
1:15 PM
AE is OK
just doesn't realise that sometimes you need to be harsh to get results
The silence of AE ... I mean the silence of the lambs :D
AE is a lamb now?
any words stronger than noob will result in deletion, it would be hard to speak truth and also appease the gods :D
is it possible to put rude words here, or do they get automatically censored?
arse seems ok
not tried any others
1:23 PM
my favourite political video
a verse for each of the Tories, Labour, and the Liberals
the most accurate depictation of politics today Ive seen in a long time
there's also Cassetteboy's video of David Cameron
politician tells truth!!! :-o
these words of wisdom have been on this site for a long time, the mods on a tea brake?
some could be asleep; they're all in US
but @Doorknob冰 and @Emrakul have been 'seen' in the last hour
I bet they loved my riddle where the ONLY solution was AMERICA :D
suprised they couldnt figure it out straight away but I know one of the lines states
1:29 PM
hi @Victor!
join the fun
"Our pride blinds us to stupidity"
1:42 PM
Well, this is the reason that made me post that meta question.
So many puzzles and riddles getting close votes and downvotes, frequently without any comment about.
Sometimes with a comment saying that they are off-topic!
And @Emrakul said that seeing people close-voting and downvoting is good!
But... Is upvoting also good?
Is editing also good?
Is explaining downvotes and close-votes and giving people a fair opportunity to learn from it and/or fixing the problems good?
Or we will continue to get close-voting and downvoting with no comments about?
I feel the community spirit has more or less gone
downvoting and close-voting really bad questions is good, but now there's a lot of it going on without reasons given
I also think there's a lot of ad-hominem downvoting going on
and close-voting anything that looks like a riddle, without waiting to see what the solution is and how well it fits
I belive emrac*** once said that it was because he didnt have time to write a comment on each bad question, since the amount of questions posted are less than 10 a day now. With not all of them being bad or in need to slight amendments. Either he hasnt got the resources to be a mod for this site, or he isnt even tryin to solve the puzzle. Which means he is just being subjective and emotive towards the puzzle. Poor excuse for moderators indeed.
As Oblongamous said, there are people that thinks that every riddle is crappy. And just downvote and close-vote anything in that category with no arguing about. Is @Kevin one of those? I don't know, and it really should not matters if just he is or not. What matters is if people close-vote and downvote everything that has a valid tag.
But if the people that do this have diamonds then the thing gets dangerous. I am not saying that Kevin or any other mods do this, but I am not saying the opposite also, I really do not know.
and if he is leading by example would explain why other shall we say sheepshrooms are just regurgitating what the mods are saying. Perpetuating the ignorance no?
the mods lead by example, but what if their example is bad?
surely there must be precedents for this...
1:52 PM
Holy pings, Batman!
Hello, @Doorknob冰.
as mature an entrance as ever......
Tell us what do you think about that.
@Victor Hang on, I'm reading through the transcript
@randal'thor Yes, not every close-voting and downvoting is bad, surely. If the content is really bad, this is the way to do. But getitng close-votes and downvotes on good quality content is very concerning.
1:55 PM
@Victor Closevoting and downvoting on low quality posts is good. Close/downvotes exist as a mechanism for quality control, and prudent use of them is important for any site in the Stack Exchange network.
@Doorknoob Nobody's disputing that. We're talking about CVs and DVs on good quality content.
@Doorknob冰 Agreed, but the point is that we are getting downvoting and close-voting on high quality content!
@randal'thor / @Victor: Do you mind providing a few examples where you think this is happening?
If you've been following Victor's meta post, you should have seen zlobi.wan.kenobi's recent riddle
hang on, I'll get you a link
I'm not saying it's not happening at all, but specific examples would be useful to discuss here.
1:58 PM
Q: letter from a great adventurer

zlobi.wan.kenobiWho or what is our hero, the adventurer? :) Now extra long and extra easy: Dear friend, I write to you before my great adventure The nature is, as always, on my side. Don’t worry, I am very well prepared, I booked a very talented and clever guide. I’m ready and excited to explore the world’s mo...

read the comments
That has exactly one close vote.
And all users are free to use their {up/down}votes in whatever manner they please (as long as it's not targeted towards a specific user).
@AE - What are you on about?
can't you hold a conversation without using pictures and videos??
@AE they hold little to no comedic effect, and the phrase a picture says a thousand words is a lie, in your case anyway.
@Doorknob冰 - Targeting specific users is another problem which I think is actually going on. Not very long ago, three or four of us riddlers got one downvote on each of our top few questions. We were fairly sure someone was serial-downvoting, just weakly enough not to get caught by the SE algorithm. I raised the issue with your colleague @Emrakul, who promised to look into it but then deleted our conversation and never mentioned it again.
After your big meta decree, there's been a lot of hatred going round this site
as you might have noticed!
2:07 PM
Q: Name that sandwich: Tea father? Drink!

Oblongamous I am a body thats for sure Ire I held for my neighbours,so pure My north teamed up while the south went solo we remember the severe lack of the potatoe My symbol riddled with the need for peace the war of the gods needed to cease green to the left, orange to the right fictio...

this one seems to have a vendetta about it
3 downvotes?! That was a brilliant riddle, with a very clear and unique answer.
Here's another one that got 3 downvotes without explanation and has a nice unique answer:
Q: Conversation between Obama and Netanyahu

pacoverflowI took a contest entry written by Seth Brown of Williamstown, MA in 2003, and I converted it into this puzzle. Disclaimer: Events described in this puzzle are fictional. A White House stenographer transcribed the following conversation between Barack Obama and Benjamin Netanyahu. Obama: W...

And another one (same story):
Q: Beware - this riddle might kill you!

rand al'thorThe answer to this riddle is a single word. It should be slightly harder than my simultaneously posted Riddle with a twist, but still fairly easy. From the middle of the sun through all the rain, Colours stretch from money to money. Between the end of life and the start of death, The first ...

2:27 PM
@Doorknob冰 I think that Oblongamous and rand al'thor already provided some good examples.
Honestly, I'm not seeing a problem with any of these.
You can't control how people vote. So what, three people didn't like your riddle. None of them even have any close votes.
not seeing a problem with the questions, or not seeing a problem with multiple people downvoting them?
And no one posting a comment like "-1, I think that your riddle has this problem: blablabla".
@Victor Yes, it would be ideal if comments such as those were left. However, people won't always do that, and if they don't, there's nothing you can do about it.
(For the record, I haven't downvoted any of the three linked questions.)
Sure, we can't and shouldn't control people will to downvote. The one million dollar question is "how to educate the community to do it in a fair way?"
And this possibly shows a problem that some people do not really knows what they should be downvoting. Or are using ad-hominem downvote.
2:34 PM
@Doorknoob - But we think some people (e.g. Jan Dvorak?) are downvoting and/or close-voting because of your (the mods') meta decree which has never been clearly retracted.
@Victor - Yes, ad-hominem is an issue too. If you sift quickly through Oblongamous's riddles, you'll find that pretty much every one has at least one DV. Usually exactly one, but a fair few with 2 or 3. Is this a coincidence, or does he have an enemy somewhere?
This is the sort of thing we should bring to a mod's attention, right @Doorknob冰?
@Oblongamous - are you still there?
I am, I'm waiting for a response that holds some credibility and not ignorance to the issues at hand
@Victor Agreed, this is a problem. If all we do is recognize that it's a problem and complain about it, though, nothing will change.
So what are the great diamond-wielders going to do about it?
@randal'thor All I can say is that the mod tools do not reveal anything out of the ordinary about votes to or from Oblong.
you have altered peoples perception on the site by trying to ban challenge puzzles, the meta post was then changed but you have not made sure everyone understands this. Thus this has continued.
peoples still think this as true that they are off topic, why have you not rectified the situation with some conviction
2:39 PM
@randal'thor See, if you (the community) aren't going to do anything, then nothing's ever going to change. Stack Exchange sites are community-driven.
if YOU wanted to ban them, then flipflop and say differently and say its all about quality. Define the quality
@Oblongamous The meta post already has a [status-declined] tacked onto it. Have you considered that perhaps the downvotes are because of something else?
@Doorknob冰 - So what should we do about it? Some advice might be helpful. Lots of people ask DVers to explain, but they very rarely do.
@randal'thor You already have the tools: Votes, chat, meta, etc. Use them!
I can make a tag called assholery.... does that make it true
I could write a rather extensive arguement about why your such an insensetive twat and at the end ~statue-declined~. Does that make it ok?
2:42 PM
@Oblongamous - ROFL!
@Doorknoob - So you're saying there's basically no problem that the mods need to resolve? Having caused a lot of damage to the community by your big meta decree, you're happy to sit back and let the community sort it out?
Seriously, what sort of leadership is that?
@randal'thor I'm saying that when we tried to do exactly what you're suggesting we do, you all reacted terribly. We only had to intervene because nobody else was doing anything! The community should be leading the site, and in many cases, we just act as regular users like the rest of you.
Because you intervened once and haven't since, some people are still taking that as gospel. Maybe they don't notice the status-declined tag. You need to say something clearer if you really want to retract it.
I agree it would've been better if you'd never intervened at all, but we can't change the past.
It's a case of fighting fire with fire.
2:58 PM
I think it's safe to say that the site's regulars (those who would even see a remission on meta/chat) already know all about the mod post and its retraction. Whether they agree with it or abide by it isn't something that will change by Doorknob or anyone else posting an additional meta post about it.
@Doorknob冰 - You need to learn that your actions have consequences, and then take the responsibility of dealing with those consequences.
If you can't handle (pun unintended!) the responsibility of being a moderator, you should hand in your diamond and let someone else take over.
@Doorknob冰 Good that you were trying to fix the problem. But clearly in the worst way possible. Lets say that a man is in the hospital infected with bacterias. How to kill the bacterias? Just kill the man and the bacterias will die off too!
@Victor - Great analogy!
What exactly would make you guys happy? A weepy apology post? A total regime change? I mean seriously, the damage is over and done with, yet I constantly see mod-bashing here in chat. Just get over it already.
@Geobits What at least me want is a clear definition about on-topicness and welcomeness of puzzles and riddles, and that was the exact reason that I posted the meta question. Further, the number of upvotes tell that some people agree with me.
3:08 PM
I upvoted, for one. We need some clear statement.
@Geobits And about the mods? Well, their diamonds means that it is their job to lead and guide the community. It is not meant to be silent and passive nor to be dictatorial. It means to be a leader, to guide and help the community to find its our guidelines.
Yes, and a moderator posted an answer that clearly (to me) says that they are on-topic. It's gotten 8 upvotes. So.... done, right?
To continue with Victor's analogy, imagine the head doctor in the hospital decreed the man should be killed, then realised that was a bad idea and went into hiding. Other doctors and nurses keep coming into the man's room with lethal injections ready, or trying to take his organs. His family rally around him to defend him from these advances, while trying to get rid of the bacteria by themselves. They want the head doctor to stop all these other people, but he's always 'unavailable for comment'.
What about them? They tried a course of action when the community wasn't doing a good job of moderating itself. It didn't work. So here we are. Big deal, it happens.
Who's gone into hiding? Emrakul has voiced his opinion, as have Doorknob and Kevin from what I've seen. Judging from past actions, it seems you'd object to them doing more than that.
@Geobits, in fact what Emrakul said is that:
1) the community is in good health.
2) Mods do not sets policy unilaterally
3) The traffic data is not important

Good, now we need back the leading part from mods!

1 could imply vaguelly that they are on-topic, because he is content. But lets suppose (probably not the case, but lets just suppose) that he is confortable with puzzles, but not with riddles. But then 2 imply that he should not tell anything and then we will be just left discussing that blindly.
3:24 PM
To tackle the easy one first, you can't do much (if anything) about "unfair" votes. People will vote the way they vote. You don't even really know that most of them are for "being a riddle". It could be someone thought they were bad riddles. Close voting is slightly different, but it requires five users and can be reversed.
Someone pointed out a lot of DVs on Oblong's riddles earlier, and I'll freely admit that I've downvoted at least one of his. I didn't do it "because it was a riddle", though, I did it because I believed it unclear/ambiguous.
@Geobits, ok but then we get back to the one million dollars question that I said above.
Second, how is this post by SE staff not a clear statement that riddles are on topic? It's an answer to the question "should we disallow them?" that says no. It has garnered over 30 upvotes, and was accepted by a moderator.
So you agree that mods should not set policy unilaterally, yet you want a clear statement from the mods saying what is on-topic? That's a no-win situation.
@Geobits Nice, but we had at least two cases of people telling otherwise, as I said in my meta question.
So what? If someone says otherwise, correct them and move on.
You can't fix everyone. There are still people on SO that close-vote for inappropriate reasons, and no amount of meta posting is going to change that.
@Geobits, at least me, I'm wanting to set something that put them clearly on-topic to avoid having to bash people who said the opposite or are downvoting or close-voting because they are supposed off-topic. And the mods are very important with this. And then, Emrakul posted an answer, THAT IS GREAT, is exactly what I was expecting.
3:32 PM
It would be nice to get Emrakul's answer, or something along similar lines, signed by all 3 mods.
oi @Doorknob冰 - don't run away!
@Geobits And then why I mentioned about "welcomeness"? Exactly because there seems to be unfair downvoting.
Why signed by mods? I thought it was the position of users here that the mods don't matter much when it comes to policy.
@Geobits As I said, people expect the mods to be leaders and guides.
@Geobits - It would be nice to have something we can point to when people like Jan Dvorak say riddles aren't on topic, to be able to say 'yes they are - look!'
@Victor Unfair downvoting happens everywhere, though. I downvote a lot, and I don't always have the time or inclination to comment about it. I can't help that people might construe that as "unfair".
3:36 PM
(possibly off-topic in this conversation, but) Is it ever fair to downvote a riddle without having seen the answer?
Then write that post yourself! Why does a mod even need to get involved? Policy isn't set by the mods, as you seem to agree. Get a clearly written post upvoted and link to it. That's how this is supposed to work.
@Geobits I am not saying that your voting is unfair. In fact, I do not know how do you vote. But seems that there is still some people that are downvoting and closevoting "because the mods says so", even if this is false.
@Victor - Yes! Exactly.
So you have what, one or two users doing this? What makes you think that a mod post would actually change that?
This is an edge case, and you can't please everyone.
(if this is even the reason for the votes)
The whole atmosphere is unpleasant now.
3:39 PM
I've avoided the chat here for a while now simply because of the unpleasantness here. I see much more negativity here than on the site atm, personally.
Maybe this downvoting and bitching at each other is just how SEs always become when they've been around for a while. Most of the top P.SE users are seriously considering taking their talents elsewhere.
The atmosphere on P.SE was much nicer than any other SE I've been to, for a while. Now it's degenerating into bitching and downvoting and vendettas.
Some of us are sure we'd be better off out of it altogether.
Sad but true.
It does seem there's always at least a "phase" they go through at various times (and may or may not come out of), but I think that's true for most any community.
If no reversal is going to happen, we don't want to spend the rest of our lives arguing with Gilles, Josh Caswell, and Jan Dvorak over every bloody riddle.
@Geobits And this was one of the reasons that I created that meta question, to try to fix the things up and fix this bad atmosphere.
Sure, so now that you got a good answer to it (the poll answer seems pretty clear), the problem is solved, right?
What good is it trying to beat the mods into "signing on" to it if the community has spoken?
Especially considering that it's recently been shown (quite clearly) that mods don't set policy?
In short, you have that post to link to now, so it's done.
3:46 PM
Officially mods don't set policy, but anything said by the mods will be treated as policy by some people.
If we want to make it unambiguous, we should have both a community consensus and a clear statement by the mods supporting it.
Then everyone will have to agree to abide by it, whether they respect community rule or they're a mod-arse-licker
That's the problem. We don't need to force everyone to abide by anything. That's not how community moderation works. If someone feels a question should be downvoted or closed, it's his choice to vote on it. There are guidelines in place to suggest how people should vote, but peopel are always going to disagree about what should or shouldn't be on topic.
Closing still takes five users and can be reversed.
@Geobits, And I guess that you just reached the important point here: "There are guidelines in place to suggest how people should vote". Really? Or maybe those guidelines are severely lacking?
And if we are lacking those guidelines, surely the mods should participate.
And an important guideline is "Are puzzles and riddles on-topic? And welcome?"
well, that's a question ... the answer to it would be a guideline ... but I agree with the point you're making!
@randal'thor Yes, exactly.
Why did Doorknob run away? No offence to @Geobits (are you a deputy mod or something?), but we shoud be talking about this with mods!
4:00 PM
No deputy mod, just a guy who likes SE in general, and is starting to like Puzzling.
If you guys want clear guidelines about what's on-topic, though, start a FAQ-propsed if there isn't one to fix this page. Get a consensus and put something there. Then you have everything you need to point to.
I dont get it
@avigrail Unclear what you're asking :P
You know how I feel then
Has there any mod been in here during the last 5 hours?
Doorknob was here for a while
scroll up and you can see what he said
And chickened out?
Fells like people are not listening
4:05 PM
There's this thing called "School;" it's really annoying ;)
Do you expect mods to be here 24/7? I don't.
I hope you arn't serious
So after all community has to look after themselves?
Well, we could do that
Me? Dead serious. SE's moderation policy is intentionally much less strict than most communities because they've given regular users the power to moderate themselves.
It has never been "a mod should always be available for comment".
I see
actually I dont
Now tell me, how can community work out if mods aren't there all the time and at the same time they pop in occasionally and punish people`?
Feels like they are havin fun teasing us
4:08 PM
Sry I cant read
How do you think this will help here?
External links/information are killing a conversatin
I assume you are no mod?
@Geobits - I never said a mod should always be available (I was just too late to edit my post about Doorknob 'running away'), but it seems pretty damn strange that they can be super-active when they're trying to kill the site, then suddenly go dead quiet for weeks
...while the site kills itself because of what they said
I agree
@avigrail I'm no mod. But it lays out the general idea behind mods here. It's worth a read some time.
Well, I dont think so
@randal'thor I think we disagree on the meaning of "dead quiet for weeks" ;)
4:11 PM
Is Doorknoob away?
@avigrail You don't think what? That it's worth reading?
Sorry you are confusing me
@Doorknob冰 - are you here or just lurking?
Geobits you seem to be not strong enough to fight for the mods Im afraid
What is your message? I get a lot of text from you but actually I dont get anything
seems to be the same from the mods too
4:14 PM
Fight for the mods? You could see it that way I guess. Really I'm trying to point out that you don't need the mods to get stuff done, and pointlessly demanding a mod statement for something users can handle is contrary to the idea of community moderation.
You are doing it again my friend
What are you trying to tell me?
You guys should stop reviewing code and learn how to write messages instead
I don't know how to make it clearer than that. This isn't a riddle; I wrote it in perfectly plain English.
if it was a riddle he'd understand perfectly :-p
Well, you are trying to say something
we should be kind and waiting
but how does this help me seriously?
4:17 PM
That is not what I said. I said you should take action as users instead of waiting for the mods.
So you've made up your mind, Im glad to hear this
Now tell me, how can we do that?
@Geobits Out of interest, were you saying the same at the time of the mods' big meta post?
Note that every week there is someone around who is reversing votes
@randal'thor he loves to use external sources instead of his brain
they get waffles or something for reversing votes now :-p
@avigrail A personal attack? Helpful.
4:19 PM
Dont be cocky
@Doorknob冰 Oi, waffle-head!
We are no kids here
@randal'thor I don't remember chiming in much when that happened, as I was new here (and still am, really). My main concern at the time was the very opaque titles on questions.
Let me se if I can search my comments a bit to give something definitive.
Yes, go find some external stuff again
good dog
good crab I should say
Anyway, mr crabs, listen... obviously there is nothing you can do, can't you?
New?! You've been here 6 months and got a gold badge! Avigrail, Victor and I are all newer than you at P.SE.
4:21 PM
@avigrail I'm done talking to you. Have fun trolling someone else.
Now that's funny
ah yes, I remember you ... you were the one who posted that brilliant 'secret admirer' answer!
@randal'thor I've had an account here for 6 months, but my first activity was in late October.
@Geobits - Pssst! Don't mind Avi. He can be kind of abrasive, but don't take it all too seriously :-)
@Geobits What is your intention?
So you have no intention as I thought
4:26 PM
he's gone away; you offended him :-(
Too bad when a code doesn't work
we have 2 new arrivals now
hello @durron597 @goldPseudo
Oh no, not this Jay again
welcome back Oblongamous :-)
Hey buddy ;D
@goldPseudo you look sweet. Say something
Also that @durron597 guy came here to say nothing, good job
4:28 PM
Thought Id grace you with my presence again :D
He also likes fictional novels
@durron597 You look fearsome
@Oblongamous ?!!!
Q: Does writing computer code and letting a machine solve a puzzle really count as solving a puzzle?

wildBillMunsonI was really having a good time trying to solve this beautifully constructed puzzle: fill this grid with water! As with any puzzle, I was working on it manually - running probabilities and trying scenarios - and ruling things out in a logical progression. I was getting close... And then the so...

I meant it in the best way possible :)
oh well that's all right then :-)
4:33 PM
Filthy lurkers come here and show yourselves
they're probably reading our (at times somewhat heated) discussion
They must have learned reading last week
and another lurker
what is this? an intimidation technique?
but @MichaelMyers is more of a regular, I think
is what an intimidation technique?
4:36 PM
plenty of new comers
@randal'thor A regular lurker, yeah
i can imagine them saying OH NO ORIGINAL THOUGHTS!!
@MichaelMyers - Last posted something like 167 days ago?
@Oblongamous They can't intimidate us by just lurking silently
thats all they know though.... silence
we're tough :-)
silence doesn't scare us
4:39 PM
@randal'thor Wouldn't surprise me. I've lurked in the History room since private beta started and I don't think I've said anything in a couple of years
:-o You're one of those people who do lots of editing and commenting but hardly post any questions or answers!
Was anything resolved in the end or was it just geobits giving an irrelevant lecture on how to idly wonder by blissfully unaware of unfair and unproffesional judgements?
Geobits was trying to calm everything now, saying it was all fine and we didn't have to worry
and don't bother the Mods
But he is kind of a soft-hearted housewife
merely a personified pacifier
4:46 PM
even MORE lurkers :-O
Keep it classy, guys.
people are flagging things in here
are you all mods then?
High Rep Chat users
No, but 10k users can also see flags.
4:47 PM
Just spam/offensive flags
And - between us - most people don't seem to know how to view the message in context without joining the room
so do High Rep Chat users have the ability to suspend people from chat?
my pals Avi and Oblong have just been suspended for half an hour :-(
Only if enough of them flag offensive
@randal'thor Not directly. But a few spam/offensive flags on a chat message gives you a 30 minute-ban.
OK, so it happens automatically?
Mods can suspend indefinitely but seldom do
4:50 PM
right, hands up people - who flagged them?
[guilty silence falls]
well, I'm starved for conversation here!
@Victor @Geobits @Doorknob冰 Any of you feeling un-lurkerish?
@randal'thor Erm... I don't really know...
Anything in particular?
@Geobits Not really. You ran off because of Avi, but I wan't rude to you!
Avi is a nice guy really, but he does know how to get people's backs up!
I can ignore obvious trolling. The conversation had just become unproductive so I figured there wasn't much else to say at the moment.
@Kevin Hi!
Do you have anything to contribute to our important discussion?
That wasn't sarcastic btw - if you go back to 11:43 this morning, you'll find lots of important stuff
We want clear statements from the mods ... which includes you, sir.
Emrakul posted an answer to Victor's meta qn (thank you Emrak!). Doorknoob has been here, but is apparently afk atm. That leaves you.
I'd better give you time to read all that stuff first though...
5:27 PM
looks like @Kevin isn't going to say anything :-(
I'm busy working, I'll go back and read when I have some time later
@Kevin Fair enough, speak to you later!
5:45 PM
I popped in because I was being told certain messages were flagged as spam but I don't know why, it's not like I'm a room owner
6:18 PM
@randal'thor chat mods are only those with names in blue
@randal'thor if 5 more people mark an offensive flag as valid than mark it as invalid, then a 30 minute suspension is automatically issued. If the context around it makes it clear it wasn't, the best bet is talk to a mod and see if they are willing to reverse it. Sometimes flag responses by high rep users can be... hasty
but then again, it also runs the risk that if the mod thinks it was particularly valid, they could also always extend it, so...
but in general, flag griefing is a thing and because a lot of people don't look closely at context, sometimes they are validated when they shouldn't be before those who would say it is invalid have had a chance to figure that out
^ This is why I mostly avoid flagging and hit 'skip' when I see one pop up (especially for rooms I'm not active in). Occasionally something pops up that's obvious even without context, but that's rare. Mostly the flag popup dialogs are a nuisance (IMO), even if they do serve a purpose.
@Geobits I don't mind them, I just get frustrated when they clear before I have a chance to look at them and then have to go back and check what happened with them
but I'm also in a position to be able to take direct action instead of just having a vote on it
6:34 PM
True. I'd like to see an opt-out option, to be honest. Dunno if there's been a feature request for that yet.
@Geobits probably not a bad idea, but I can also think of a lot of other things that would be far better to have if we could get some chat improvements
though that one would probably be pretty easy
Yea, it's definitely not a killer feature or anything.
which does bring up an interesting point, they probably should do that feature before they implement any kind of review ban, or we'll have people intentionally doing bad reviews just to get it disabled ;)
I've asked about review bans before on chat flags before for those who clearly don't read context and approve incorrectly
Hmm. That seems pretty hard to objectively determine.
@Geobits yeah, it is, but you get some cases where it is obvious
if you look at enough flags
granted, I also wanted a validate but don't suspend option too
6:46 PM
Seems handy, but probably inconsistent with their stance on mod-hammers on the main site.
I've seen "Can't I just vote like a regular user?" posts denied.
well, mods can delete any message, what I'm not sure about is if all 10k users know that the validation carries a suspension
and they can't just delete a message
it would be good to give 10k's an option to delete or delete/suspend
it would give them more of the options a mod has
instead of only giving them the nuclear option
I knew that "enough" 10K approval meant a suspension, but didn't know the threshold or how long the suspension lasted.
yeah, the balancing act of it is a bit complicated and it isn't that well flushed out or understood
I also had advocated for a short delay before it would take action to give those who do more careful review time to take a look
that's really the main problem with flagging in chat right now
those who tend to approve quickly do so, but those who tend to look at context take longer
and often the former go so fast that the latter don't even get to respond
if there was like a 30 to 45 second delay for votes to accumulate, I think a lot of the bad validations would go away
Does marking it "invalid" even do anything? As in, if 5 people mark valid and 1 invalid, is it sitting at 4, just waiting for one more, or is it triggered?
@Geobits it is sitting at 4 then
so you could have 9 valids and 5 invalids and it would still be waiting for another validation
if it hits 5 more of either, then action is taken
so 7 invalids and 2 valids removes it from queue for example
atleast that's my understanding
also, if at any point a diamond mod takes action, our vote immediately binds
6:54 PM
Gotcha. I assumed it worked that way, but wasn't sure.
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