English Language Learners

1:41 AM

The Gang of Four (most difficult things to master in English): articles, tenses, prepositions, modal verbs

(One of the reasons that might make it so difficult is perhaps this: misusing the four usually potentially causes only minor misunderstanding.)

Anonymous

2:02 AM

TGoF! Tricky Grammar, our Foe!

Damkerng T.

Fee! Fie! Foe! Fum!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Remember the book Native Listening I discussed a while back?

Anonymous

The author starts out by saying that just as we are all native speakers of at least one language, we are also all native listeners of at least one language

Anonymous

The author discusses how we train our brains to be as efficient as possible at hearing that one language (or those few languages) at a young age, which is what makes it harder to hear the sounds of other languages (we've learned to ignore things that don't matter for our languages!)

Anonymous

Becoming a listener of a new language is a skill.

Damkerng T.

2:10 AM

nods

Anonymous

But our brains do remain flexible and don't actually lose the ability to pick up the sounds of other languages, as you know

Anonymous

We're just trained to ignore them.

Anonymous

Actually, the author shows that we can adjust quite rapidly.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

If you hear someone say giraffe with a strange f sound, you can pretty rapidly adjust and understand their f, even though it's different.

Anonymous

2:12 AM

And the next day, your brain will still be used to their f if you hear them speak again, no more training required

Anonymous

We do that sort of adaptation all the time in our own languages because speakers all speak differently

Damkerng T.

But that only works well when the strange sound is in (or close to) our first languages, perhaps.

Anonymous

Well, if we're talking about adapting to pronunciation of your own native language, then you have the advantage of being able to fill in the blanks based on context remarkably well

Anonymous

Cutler did some experiments

Anonymous

She had both native speakers and learners identify phonemes with noise without any context to help guess what they might be

Anonymous

2:17 AM

And the native speakers and learners had the same problems

Anonymous

But when there's context, study after study shows native speakers perform quite a lot better at figuring out words

Anonymous

Because they can draw on their experience of phonotactics, vocabulary and collocations

Anonymous

Not necessarily superior phonetic ability

Anonymous

This was with experienced learners of course, not beginners

Damkerng T.

I think she(?) might have overlooked something.

Anonymous

2:20 AM

What's that?

Damkerng T.

I wonder, no I believe, that native speakers can still outperform at the multi-phonemes level.

(Because of the phonotactics, not just only because of the context.)

Anonymous

Phonotactic rules only apply in context

Anonymous

The experiment was designed such that phonotactics couldn't play a role

Damkerng T.

I can fancy an experiment of unfamiliar made-up names. :-)

Names are unfamiliar to everyone, but still sound English-like.

Anonymous

When I say /t/ can be pronounced [ʔ] in English, that's only true in certain phonetic contexts, even in made-up words

Anonymous

2:24 AM

Or if I say /s/ can follow /p/, that's only true in certain phonetic contexts

Anonymous

Of course native speakers have these rules internalized :-)

Damkerng T.

I think that's a big advantage. :D

Anonymous

It is!

Anonymous

You're right!

Anonymous

You know, there are certain allophonic rules in Japanese that I don't think get taught to most learners

Anonymous

2:25 AM

Or morphophonemic rules

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

That I think people should learn

Anonymous

Like, if you hear くっぷく, the vowel at the beginning is pretty much always devoiced, and that's entirely predictable

Anonymous

Because it's a high vowel between two voiceless consonants in an unaccented mora

Anonymous

To an English speaker, it can sound like there's simply no vowel there: k'ppuku

Damkerng T.

2:27 AM

:D

Anonymous

So a learner can hear that and not be able to tell what they heard

Anonymous

And so, not be able to look the word up

Anonymous

Although if you point it out, then it's simple to recognize :-)

Damkerng T.

Unless the (Japanese) teacher speaks in the teacher accent. :-)

(Which would make it very easy to tell, I guess.)

Anonymous

I was imagining that you might be learning a word outside of class and need to look it up :-)

Anonymous

2:29 AM

Now, every student of Japanese learns about some vowel devoicing.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

Like, most students learn that です sounds like 'des' rather than 'desu' (not always actually true, but it's one of the first things most students learn)

Anonymous

They learn that vowel "isn't there"

Anonymous

But vowels are "not there" in countless words, and it's not random

Anonymous

You should be able to recognize the patterns one way or the other, whether it's explicitly taught or not

Damkerng T.

2:31 AM

des made me so uncomfortable when I tried to make out the sounds. "What is this s!?" :-)

Anonymous

Try making the /u/ mouth shape, like you're saying す, but without voicing the vowel

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

You'll notice that native speakers say です differently from one another :-)

Anonymous

It's really not a big deal exactly how you make the 's' :-)

Anonymous

(Oh, and there are times when no one devoices it!)

Damkerng T.

2:36 AM

I think at this point, it will sound a little odd for me if I hear desu instead of des. (Though I know that they are the same thing!)

Anonymous

I lost my voice from practicing speaking earlier

Damkerng T.

Oh, no!

Anonymous

I don't know why, but sometimes I can tell what I think should sound natural but it's harder for me to actually say the way I want until I practice

Anonymous

Like, after I say it, I can tell I didn't do it right

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There are various times you'll hear the /u/ at the end :-)

Damkerng T.

2:39 AM

@snailboat Ah, I think I have a similar problem (maybe even the same.)

Anonymous

Speakers of some dialects always pronounce it (unless they're actively trying not to use their accent)

Anonymous

Sometimes the /u/ is actually emphasized or extended into a long vowel!

Damkerng T.

Oh! That would be quite distinctive!

Anonymous

It can be used to emphasize the positive polarity of the sentence

Anonymous

Or sometimes to be cutesy or . . . Well, I probably can't give a very good description off the top of my head . . . :-)

Anonymous

2:40 AM

There's probably a range of situations

Anonymous

Someone taught me, but I appear to not be able to remember exactly what I learned! Oh no!

Anonymous

I'll have to check my notes later :-)

Damkerng T.

LOL

I hacked a poem after my "Fee! Fie! Foe! Fum!" message. Would you like to read it?

Anonymous

Sure!

Anonymous

ELL poet society!

Damkerng T.

2:43 AM

Okay, here goes!

> Fee! Fie! Foe! Fum!
Ask not whence the thunder comes.
Ask not where the learners have gone.
Nor why the birds have ceased their song.
When coming home, don't take too long.

> The learners of old looked to the sky,
to ask of their Teacher who, what, how and why,
alas, they found no reply.

> The frustrated learners turned to magic forbidden,
incantations of the Dark-Arts they'd hidden.
With seeds they pulled from a magical page,
the learners grew a path-way to seek out their knowledge.

> Alas, when they came to what they thought was heaven's gate,
they met with a terrible, grisly fate.
For between heaven and earth was a perilous place.
Gantua, home to a fierce giant race.
The giants ate most of them, our dear learners!

Ta-da!

See, TGoF got most of them!

Anonymous

Oh, no!

Anonymous

Poor learners.

Anonymous

They took the wrong shortcut.

Damkerng T.

Hee!

Anonymous

It can be hard to know which door to open without going through first :-)

Damkerng T.

3:05 AM

I just saw your lang-8 quote in the other room.

in Japanese Language, 12 hours ago, by snailboat

> Don't worry about mistakes. Ever. Don't be afraid to be wrong. That's the start of studying a language. We can't learn something without mistakes. The number and memory of your mistakes proves how much you've learned and went so far.

I still don't know whether I agree, but I think it sounds great.

Anonymous

Me either. :-)

Anonymous

Although I don't think being afraid of making errors should stop someone from speaking

Anonymous

Everyone gets to make their own choices about how they learn

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I was thinking some more about the people who want to translate する to do all the time

Damkerng T.

3:13 AM

I think I agree that we shouldn't afraid of making errors.

Anonymous

There are sometimes where it really doesn't work very well :-)

Anonymous

銀色の髪をした男　（ぎんいろ　の　かみ　を　した　おとこ） 'guy with silver hair'

Damkerng T.

Being bold helps a lot in first stages, but it can accumulate Unenglish usage at the same time.

Anonymous

If you translated it as literally as possible, it would be "male [who] did silver hair"

Anonymous

Which is silly :-)

Damkerng T.

3:15 AM

Hehe!

Anonymous

Like, what exactly is he doing?

Damkerng T.

He was doing silver hair, obviously. :D

Anonymous

Oh! Good point.

Anonymous

Speaking Japanese without being terribly aware of grammar, I managed to put together lots of sentences, but I also managed to make lots of errors without being aware of them

Anonymous

I think I learned sort of backwards :-)

Anonymous

3:17 AM

But actually, I found that a lot of the errors I made were really common!

Anonymous

After I learned to stop making them, I noticed other learners making them all the time :-)

Anonymous

I'm not sure what lesson to learn from that.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Only among learners, perhaps? Not among native speakers.

@snailboat I think I can get one lesson from that. It's hard to learn a second language right the first time.

Someone upvoted my old question.

I noticed this:

Add more: That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is AND It is true for all that that that that that that that refers to is not the same that that that that refers to — Maulik V Apr 1 at 9:38

I think I can't make "That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is" one good canonical sentence.

So, I think there is no "syntactic ambiguity"; it's (probably) just an ungrammatical utterance.

(I didn't try very hard.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, I meant common among learners

Anonymous

Looks ungrammatical to me

Anonymous

3:27 AM

[ That that is is that that is not ] seems grammatical, if nonsensical

Anonymous

But that can't really be a subject

Damkerng T.

nods -- I went only about that far and couldn't patch the rest to it.

According to Wikipedia, it claims "syntactic ambiguity" and splits the chunk into four sentences!

(It that's allowed, I think I can make any utterances grammatical!)

(By claiming ellipsis and single-word sentences)

Hmm... Looks like claiming just single-words sentences is already adequate. :D

Doge speak: wow really scare very concern so happy wow

Anonymous

I think it's difficult to claim something's grammatical if an educated native speaker can't parse it or has great difficulty doing so

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I suppose so

Anonymous

The types of errors people make are interesting, though

Anonymous

3:40 AM

For now, I should probably still focus on my own errors... :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe! I probably should've done the same.

CopperKettle

11:30 AM

I wonder why exactly we can't use the WILL in protasis in conditional 1: "If I will decide to fly to NY I should work faster."

Damkerng T.

To make sense of the sentence, I have to replace "will decide" with "want" or "wish".

CopperKettle

Good day, Damkerng! Me too, but then how did English turned out to be that way? In Russian, its okay. "If I will go to the movie, will you go with me?"

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I think it's because of the English tense system.

CopperKettle

"If I decide to fly to NY, I'll have to work faster to finish my project before the flight"

@DamkerngT. Because they love to have their tenses ranged in an ascending order?

Damkerng T.

Some people think that future tense is misleading. I also think that present tense is misleading.

CopperKettle

11:38 AM

nods

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Sometimes I think of the present tense as the "plain" tense. And I think in English conditionals, we prefer to state the condition plainly.

CopperKettle

Yes, in the "open" conditional we try to lay down the condition in the "plain'n'simple" Present Simple.

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

"I should work faster" -> "I will need to work faster", IMHO, because "I will have to work faster" is more stringent.. just thinking aloud

On the other hand, "If I will decide to fly" is also plain, because the future-tensed verb "will decide" carries no modal "colouring" in English.

Interesting.

Damkerng T.

I usually think of should as 'd better! :-)

CopperKettle

11:46 AM

Ah, but there seems to be no future-tense form for that (0:

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

CopperKettle

If I decide to fly, I will had better work faster.

Damkerng T.

Interesting. I've never thought of anything in front of had in had better before!

Should is another odd ball, imo.

CopperKettle

Because it goes always after a pronoun.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Basically, I've never heard anyone use it that way before, so it sounds strange to me.

CopperKettle

11:49 AM

nods

I just understood that what she really means is "I need to work faster now in case I decide to fly"

This is not a conditional, or maybe a half-conditional.

Damkerng T.

Ahh -- I think it's better to think of in case as a special construction.

CopperKettle

I need to work faster now, just in case - what if I decide to fly?

@DamkerngT. nods

Damkerng T.

1:24 PM

3

Q: The word "would" usage in present time

From the picture above, I think the use of would in the sentence is correct because would could also be used to express uncertainty, opinion, and hope. Would 5. Expressing a conjecture, opinion, or hope: I would imagine that they’re home by now. I guess some people would cons...

> This post has been viewed 32 times. 3 upvoted it, 1 favorited it, 2 answered, 1 screamed and scratched their heads so hard that all their hair fell off, 1 was laughing so hard that their neighbor sent them to a mental house, a sanity check in progress. :P

I typed that in the comment box and almost pressed Enter. Then I changed my mind, I'd better write it in here, not out there. :D

user116848

2:35 PM

So, no writing exercise yesterday.

user116848

Hi!

user116848

I can even write it today if someone gives me a good topic.

user116848

Although I did my three hours worth of writing in my exam today.

user116848

I hope I clear it.

user116848

It is pretty common to fail these papers. That sucks.

user116848

2:39 PM

Pass percentage world wide is 50%

user116848

So 50 pass and 50 fail on average.

user116848

Bad!

user116848

How do I improve this sentence:

user116848

> When I opened this page again I didn't know you guys were still chatting here.

user116848

I think before would make sense..

user116848

2:49 PM

With when the subordinate clause doesn't make sense to me.

user116848

What do you think? @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

I think it's okay.

user116848

That is refreshing. Thanks. I thought it looked odd :-)

Damkerng T.

(One minor problem is that I can't figure out why again, but I guess that you might have thought of something happened before that time.)

user116848

I can always say it with before too.

Damkerng T.

2:52 PM

(Also, a comma before I didn't know would be nice.)

Eh? I think before and again are different. This confuses me a little; probably because I don't have the same context you had.

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yes. I wrote again because I came in here again yesterday after chatting a bit earlier with you guys.

Damkerng T.

A-ha! Then, it should be fine.

user116848

okay

user116848

I am kinda free today. So I am thinking about picking a good question to answer on ELL.

Damkerng T.

Nice! :-)

user116848

3:01 PM

POI is on a little break. I watched the last episode two weeks ago.

user116848

Next one is on 16 December. Next week.

Damkerng T.

Oh! I think normally series will run without break, except for between seasons.

What happened to the show?

user116848

Yes, they do run like that. It is a little break I guess. I don't know why.

user116848

Many series take a little break after 4-5 episodes. Usually a fortnight break of two weeks.

user116848

My mom gave me tea a little while ago, I forgot to drink it so it went cold. Now she gave me another time after heating it :-)

user116848

3:15 PM

I feel like a bad person.

Damkerng T.

:D

You will feel better after having your tea. :-)

user116848

Oh, I am fine:-)

user116848

Although doctor told me to avoid tea. I still drink it sometimes.

user116848

He said it is bad for anxiety.

user116848

But he didn't forbid me green tea.

user116848

3:18 PM

Who listens to their doctor :-)

user116848

6:54 PM

Sometimes I regret watching Urban Dictionary for a word's meaning.

user116848

They should put checks on the dictionary.

user116848

Something like a smokedetector.

user116848

Many people upload dirty definitions there.

user116848

So, many definitions are fun to read. But others are way too much.

CopperKettle

Good evening, Farooq!

user116848

7:04 PM

Good evening!

user116848

Hey!

user116848

How are ya?

CopperKettle

How was your 10 min writing contest?

I'm fine, thanks!

user116848

There was none yesterday. I guess no one decided the topic there.

CopperKettle

Too bad.. I'll try to take part next time (0:

user116848

7:06 PM

Yeah. This is how that works usually. Anyone can decide the topic and anyone can write :-)

CopperKettle

Oh, so I can walk in and throw in a topic? Nice (0:

user116848

Yes you can

user116848

Always!

user116848

I was busy with studies yesterday that's why I didn't partake.

CopperKettle

oh

user116848

7:10 PM

How is the cold there? It must be very cold at night I bet.

CopperKettle

Today is very warm! I was ice skating 2 hrs ago

It's minus 5 C now

user116848

Rad!

CopperKettle

Cold weather begins around January 15

and lasts until the end of Feburary

user116848

ah

user116848

So by then how much temperature drops?

CopperKettle

7:12 PM

In this town, I remember minus 35 C I guess

This January, I tried to ride a bicycle in minus 30

user116848

No way! That's too much.

CopperKettle

The cold air burns the face, and especially eyes, so it's not feasible for long distances

Because the skiing mask gets foggy

One should wear a skiing mask with some unfogging contraption..

And the feet get cold quick

user116848

Yeah, I hear that the wind after snow is very dangerous for the body if not properly covered.

user116848

But you are pretty near to Arctic circle too.

CopperKettle

But in minus 5 C, its great to ride a bike. I was returning from the rink, and met quite a lot of bicyclists on the way

user116848

7:16 PM

Nice!

CopperKettle

@Farooq No, quite far.. I don't know the exact distance.

user116848

@CopperKettle Ah, I see.

CopperKettle

Yekaterinburg is 56.74 N, and the Circle is about 66 N

My hometown Noyabrsk is 63.12 N, that's closer

333 kilometers from the circle, still very far

user116848

nods - Compared to my geographical position that is pretty far up :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

user116848

7:19 PM

Although we are in the same timezone

CopperKettle

Are you in Islamabad? Excuse me, but I forgot.

user116848

No I am in Karachi.

CopperKettle

oh

user116848

Yeah, that is pretty South :-)

CopperKettle

In my hometown, there's a monument to... Siberian mosquito

google.ru/…

user116848

7:22 PM

Here we get max 5 C (in positive) in winters.

CopperKettle

(0:

user116848

Never snow.

user116848

But in Islamabad and north it gets very chilly.

CopperKettle

That's great, you can ride bicycle and jog each day (0:

user116848

Yes, I can :)

user116848

7:23 PM

I like to jog.

user116848

Especially in winters.

CopperKettle

Me too (0:

user116848

Summers here suck.

CopperKettle

With an MP3 player..

Yes, hot summers are hell

India even had a second capital, Shimla for summer

During the British Raj

user116848

Many people here run with music but I don't :-)

CopperKettle

7:24 PM

oh

user116848

I listen to it but only at home.

user116848

I like it that way.

user116848

Although I have mp3 player etc.

CopperKettle

I find it boring to run without music.. but on a bicycle, its another thing - with music you're on a suicide mission (0:

user116848

LOL - Yes, it is.

CopperKettle

7:26 PM

Meaning, you can overlook a car

user116848

True.

user116848

Running in the open air is fun.

user116848

Many people run in Gyms.

user116848

Which is good when there is summer etc.

CopperKettle

Not me (0:

Yes, in heat I bet it's better in a gym

user116848

7:28 PM

So, in Summers I go in the evening for a run.

CopperKettle

20 million people in Karachi - twice as big as Moscow..

user116848

Yep. The population here sucks :/

user116848

I mean too many folks.

CopperKettle

Yes, I understand. Here, the population is only about 1.5 mn people

user116848

Neat!

CopperKettle

7:30 PM

Yep. (0:

user116848

All over subcontinent and China etc. population is too much.

CopperKettle

nods

In Russia, native population is shrinking

user116848

So believe it or not I avoid all the public places here.

CopperKettle

oh

user116848

I only go when there is a need to go. For example to give an exam, shopping etc.

CopperKettle

7:32 PM

Karachi is a kind of New York, according to Wikipedia: the financial centre

user116848

Yes, it is the port city.

user116848

But less developed.

user116848

Still education standard is pretty good here.

user116848

I mean it is kinda difficult to compete with other students here sometimes.

CopperKettle

That's good

user116848

7:37 PM

Yes, it is.

user116848

I gotta take off. Good night all.

user116848

Ciao! :-)

CopperKettle

Same here. Good night, Farooq!

I was feeling sleepy..

user116848

See ya!

Anonymous

8:58 PM

Green tea can have just as much caffeine as black tea

Anonymous

So it can cause anxiety too

Damkerng T.

9:16 PM

Is I like it here the same as I like here?

(I got curious because I'm watching a movie and when I heard that line "I like it here", I understand it as sort of "I like staying here" plus "I like everything here" [He refused to move when the building was going to be bulldozed soon]. Thai translation simply translated the line as [I-like-here].)

Anonymous

"I like here" is not really the usual way of saying that

Anonymous

But it should mean around the same thing, I suppose :-)

Anonymous

"I like it here" = "I like the living conditions and set of circumstances I am in here", or something like that, I think?

Damkerng T.

I think I like here sounds odd in English. Maybe I like this place works better. :-)

@snailboat In the context, I think so, yes.

Anonymous

You could take it as referring to the environment or situation the speaker is in, not the place

Damkerng T.