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8:44 AM
@DamkerngT. Well, that's not why for me personally.
Oh, hello @snailboat!
I remember you told me that before. I really thought I had seen it happened so, I still do.
A: to take a veiled shot at someone - what does this idiom mean and how to use it?

oerkelensDictionary.reference has this to say about veiled: adjective 1. having a veil: a veiled hat. 2. covered or concealed by, or as if by, a veil: a veiled woman. 3. not openly or directly expressed; masked; disguised; hidden; obscure: a veiled threat. 4. lacking clarity or d...

I am a little fatigued from Stack Exchange stuff, is all.
I guessed that might happen.
Well, going off somewhere for a while might help. :)
Or Frozen!
About @oerkelens's answer, I thought he might read the quote the wrong way, but I could be wrong too. I didn't read the whole thing.
When I read "the Committee [...] took a veiled shot at the president’s vow," it didn't strike me that the Committee was attacking the president's vow.
Then again, I didn't read both the original text and the answer in full.
8:51 AM
Committee isn't a person.
The question is unclear because it takes a non-constituent substring from the source
So I'd better not write any comments. :D
Should I write Committee was or Committee were?
I edited the question
> Sen. Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said he was “encouraged” by Obama’s strong rhetoric but took a veiled shot at the president’s vow not to send in combat troops.
8:55 AM
Chambliss was, not *Chambliss were
And not Committee anything :-)
Oh! :D
I think it's not very veiled. :)
I'm sure it was written in a hurry
Q: Single clear word for 'hot food'

Dennis JaheruddinThe question In my native language we have two ways of saying the food is hot. One meaning spicy and one meaning too/very warm. I am now looking for a way to use this sentence: The food is ...{single word here}... I wan the meaning to be clear (the food is warm to the point where caution is r...

This asks the wrong question
8:58 AM
You should focus on how to communicate clearly. Don't worry about whether there's a single word for it. — snailplane just now
Eh, I'll axe that comment.
It's bit too direct, but I think it's a very good point.
I think the OP was trying to focus on how to communicate clearly by using a single word for it.
Which is asking the wrong question :-)
Well, I didn't downvote.
Oh, but he wrote:
> If there is not a single word for this that is also fine, I could then at least start looking for better workarounds.
Hmm, I think his approach is a fine one. :-)
9:02 AM
Well, I didn't downvote, but it'd be a better question if they asked how to express something
Instead, they asked a trivia question
I think warm should work for native speakers.
In the place where non-native speakers were there too, "just out of the oven" might be better, I think.
"Watch out / be careful, it's still hot."
Oh, yes, hot works too.
If it's hot enough that they need to be warned, I would start with a warning.
9:05 AM
You can disambiguate hot any number of ways, too: "It's piping hot" or "It's still hot"
(The latter works because spicy food doesn't gradually get less spicy as it cools :-)
The latter works better, imo, internationally.
Well, in real life, I never say piping hot.
Other people do, but it's not terribly common.
But my personal choice is to lead with a warning any time I'm trying to warn someone.
9:07 AM
A very good approach!
I don't think I would want to say warm personally because it's not a strong enough term
Something hot enough to burn is hot in my book rather than warm
(Excuse my haphazard use of quotes and italics . . . :-)
nods -- Though technically, something warm could harm us too.
Sometimes I spilled very warm tea on my hand.
I'm clumsy. :-)
@DamkerngT. My answer is about veiled (shot), whoever took it at whom. I thought that was also the point of confusion for the OP. How would veiled shot ever be interpreted differently than "(semi) hidden attack"? Unless you mean it was possibly about a small drink over which you had draped a veil. It could be someone toasting in a very ceremonial matter, I guess...
9:20 AM
The first time I saw that line, I took it as, "the Committee took an unclear stance when being asked by the reporters".
However, as I said, I didn't read the whole thing, and it's pretty clear that you're right once snailboat added more relevant context to the question.
I have never seen take a shot meaning take a stance, but that may be me...
Well, I usually try to avoid reading things as someone was attacking someone else when it's rather unclear. :-)
But that's me. :D
@DamkerngT. It is a sad reality that people attacking people is very common :(
Oh, too true, sadly!
Why on earth did anybody approve this edit?????
A normal answer was turned into spam by an anionymous user
and people blindly click the approve-button?
9:27 AM
Undo it!
That edit has been suggested dozens of times.
Wait, I haven't undone this kind of thing before.
I couldn't find the roll back option
I may need other glasses :P
Hooray! It's all good now.
Iiuc, that suggested edit was a spam.
Thanks snail<vehicleofchoice>!
9:31 AM
And it got Jim an extra upvote :)
So the outcome is positive :)
Oh, once again, after seeing ell.stackexchange.com/questions/26705/…, the first thing came to my mind was falter.
falter behind specifically, I think.
> "The colored TV once shined on desolation 15."
@DamkerngT. That's a strange sentence.
I remember that lyrics are off-topic, but practically, I think we're fine with them. -- And yes, I can't really make sense of it, though I can make sense of it word-by-word.
@oerkelens The reviewers need to be review-banned by a moderator
9:39 AM
I'm guessing that desolation 15 could be a place or something.
@snailboat Is that possible?
@DamkerngT. Yes.
But us regular users can't do it.
@snailboat we, the powerless masses :P
@snailboat Strange sentence? The lyrics as a whole sound... interesting, to say the least:
Take 'em outa west, take 'em outa height, take 'em on a sweet ride
Those little angels are numbered nine
The colored TV once shined on desolation 15
They've got it! Yeah Yeah Yeah
Bust 'em in the light, bust 'em in the light, bust 'em in the daylight
They ain't worthy being named as thieves
One of those shorties said hi up to the abbot who died
The rebound, Yeah Yeah Yeah
I didn't read the lyrics.
I would advice nobody to learn English based on that...
9:42 AM
What's the song?
@oerkelens Yep. I had no idea what it was from
@oerkelens Thanks!
I looked up the rest of he lyrics, and honestly, there is not much in the whole song that seems to make sense to me. Don't worry, this is not something that you are supposed to understand as a learner (or native speaker!) of English. I'm not even sure what the excuse is for thinking that writing such a thing is necessary. — oerkelens 42 secs ago
too harsh?
The trees, ain't no doubt about
The seeds, I had no thought about
No, Yeah Yeah Yeah
@oerkelens Is that how it's written?
9:45 AM
Or is it a transcription
I hope there is a sensible explanation :)
It's non-native English, presumably
I'm not even sure it is any English :P
The words are (mostly) from an English dictionary
but I can distinguish very little in the way of English semantics or grammar :P
Yeah, now that I've read the whole thing, it does seem pretty much like nonsense
No, Yeah Yeah Yeah!
9:48 AM
Oh, I got a couple of good crashes.
I don't think the song has meaning. — snailplane 6 secs ago
I may have found a source for nice password phrases
If you tell us your passphrase, it's no longer secure :-)
I'm not saying which line from which of their songs I use :P
:-O don't look now but there's a monkey on your back :D
9:51 AM
It's a Swedish band. I wonder if google-translated back into Swedish, these lyrics make sense...
@oerkelens Yeah, but you could test them all in short order :-)
@oerkelens Not very likely, imo.
@IceBoy yup, and Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey :)
@snailboat True. Darn. I shouldn;t have mentioned it :D
@oerkelens Did you just take a veiled shot? :-)
@DamkerngT. I sometimes wonder is Swedish makes sense anyway :)
@DamkerngT. Na... I just like throwing around Beatles song titles.
9:53 AM
That's rather veiled for me. :D
I wonder if the desolation 15 in "The colored TV once shined on desolation 15" has anything to do with sweet 16.
Maybe in another language.
@oerkelens :D
just to be clear^
7 mins ago, by Ice Boy
:-O don't look now but there's a monkey on your back :D
I know, that was what I responded to :)
For anyone who missed it ("explicit" lyric warning for the "sensitive")... The Lonely Island give you a gangsta take on semicolons:
@IceBoy That monkey was crazy about my nuts!
10:02 AM
@HostileFork I have a hunch that those semicolons will be frowned upon by several style manuals. :)
@DamkerngT. Today perhaps, but language evolves, because not everyone watches videos to the end. :-)
Could be another earworm for me.
L; O; L.
@DamkerngT. The best way to keep worms out of your ear is to not listen to them :-)
True, that!
Q: what is orchard?

user8402Does orchard only relate to apple trees? or can orchard be any kind of fruit trees? Because I looked on Google Images with the word orchard and there are mainly apple trees. And because I can't find the same word in my language, and the closest is garden, which is not the same thing. Can you...

Interesting! I must misunderstand orchard all along.
Hi all
10:10 AM
We have two Ice people in here now. :)
Eerie, like HappySpoon
(who is not me, but wanted to make fun of me)
10:11 AM
@snailboat Oh, no! See what they did to the Batman!
How are you guys?
@HostileFork Oh, I see. At first glance, I thought HappySpoon is another you.
And what's up?
Hi @IceGirl :)
10:12 AM
@IceGirl Monkeys, semicolons and Swedish bands with weird "English" lyrics. And some spam
For the rest, all is quiet :)
That's a good summary.
@DamkerngT. There are other alias-referencing games...most people lose interest after a while and change it again.
Apart from some small drinks covered in thin layers of cloth - but that is @DamkerngT.'s area ;)
Eh? Not mine. :)
10:14 AM
Q: Which's suggested in the article? - Test 3, Q22, by Mark Shepherd

LePressentimentSource: p 145, Mastering the National Admissions Test for Law, Mark Shepherd. Last 2 sentences of para 2: ...Even before this period, there is evidence that the unemployed were more likely to report themselves as retired or permanently sick when unemployment rates were high, as ...

It's very tempting to tag this with [legal].
Wait, it was just edited again.
and again.
It needed some formatting to be readable. All of their "here is a bunch of copy-and-pasted text from Mark Shepherd's book" questions are unreadable
@HostileFork If a spoon is happy and a fork is hostile, what does that make a knife?
Or sporks and foons.
@IceBoy Violent
10:19 AM
@snailboat I almost want Gary Slapper back
strictly speaking, d is correct. However, 1) the effect is smaller than a) (since they can also report as retired) and 2) it is totally outside the scope of the paragraph to consider the number of people that call in sick. It is about unemployment (rates). So even if d) is strictly speaking possible, the fact that you have to choose 1 answer, and a) is more relevant and concerns more people, means you should have chosen a). — oerkelens 2 mins ago
@oerkelens How is d correct, strictly speaking?
To answer the question properly, I think it begs the answerer to read the whole passage(s).
Are legal texts fitting for "English Language Learners"? :-/
"the unemployed were more likely to report themselves as retired or permanently sick when unemployment rates were high" doesn't have an implied "than were actually sick"
10:21 AM
(Don't know how long that is.)
@snailboat Well, if somebody who is unemployed says they are sick, we have somebody reporting as sick that isn't sick. It implies we have more people calling in sick than there really are.
It has an implied "than at other times"
Oh, let me go re-read it with what you said in mind
But actually, we may not have enough information. Maybe people that are sick all refuse to report
It looks to me like the article says
10:22 AM
"people registered as unemployed generally have poorer health and higher mortality than those in work"
In this kind of test, we usually need to drop almost all of our prior knowledge.
"In areas where jobs are easier to come by, it may be largely the more sick people who are left out of the labour market"
I don't think you can claim that unemployed people are by definition not sick
The article says the opposite
@snailboat I only read the quoted passage. These kind of tests seem to focus on the message in specific parts of the text, so I didn't even look at any more context :)
10:25 AM
The test asks about the entire passage
I don't think you can make your assumption from the part the OP quoted, though
Oerkelens i send a message for you in our room come there please
@snailboat Nobody claims that. The point the author makes is that instead of reporting as unemployed, people report as sick. The result being that there are more unemployed people than the offical numbers show.
@oerkelens You said "if somebody who is unemployed says they're sick, we have somebody reporting as sick that isn't sick"
@snailboat It is not my assumption
10:27 AM
That would only be true if unemployed people are not sick by definition
I think this is not really about English, it's about reasoning.
it is answer D that the OP wanted to be correct
@snailboat No, that is also not true
I amended the "it is correct" with a second comment btw :)
@oerkelens You'll have to explain how it works, then.
@snailboat The author mentioned people will report sick instead of unemployed
And I think one point the author of this book (as I've seen in other questions) makes is that "reasoning" and "common sense" or "implication" are different.
10:29 AM
So we have 10 unemployed people and 10 sick people. 15 in total, because 5 are sick and unemployed.
Now we discover that 3 "sick" people reported sick instead of unemployed
@oerkelens They don't.
So in reality, 13 people are unemployed and 7 people are sick
I mean, I don't see it. Where?
English and reasoning are really two different things.
there is evidence that the unemployed were more likely to report themselves as retired or permanently sick when unemployment rates were high, as both an economic and psychological coping strategy.
10:31 AM
It's certainly not in the part the OP quoted.
When you do it as a coping strategy instead of the obvious reasons of being retired or permanently sick, you are not retired or sick.
I agree that the instead of is my interpretation
Ah, I see how you're arriving at your interpretation now
but it doesn't change the fact that it seems to imply more people report sick than really are
It doesn't imply that.
So d is false.
10:33 AM
Strictly speaking, I mean.
it seems, because we do not know about people that are sick. They may choose to take leave instead of reporting sick, fo rfear of losing their job
Also, imply and suggest are two different things.
seems to imply = suggests :)
So it doesn't actually imply that, because we don't know which number is greater.
there is no actual implication
10:34 AM
Seems to imply = appears to imply, but may not actually
@oerkelens The fact that we usually think of them as the same hints that we aren't good lawyers.
The author couldn;t be bothered with the number of sick people. I think that is teh main idea
He's talking in that paragraph about unemployed people :)
And the writers of the test agree with me :P
Well, they might agree with you on part of what you wrote.
Ah, I've read your second comment now
@snailboat I say: d is wrong, a is right.
that is what they say
10:36 AM
@oerkelens Certainly they don't say this
@oerkelens Isn't that the opposite of what you posted: "strictly speaking, d is correct".
I had only seen your first comment while we were talking in here.
You could just delete all your comments and re-post a revised version of the first one.
That is why I mentioned I has written a second one :)
yeah, by now I'd better :P
10:38 AM
That would save some confusion.
Hooray! New comment :-)
I am slowly starting to see sense in those song lyrics...
No, Yeah Yeah Yeah
I say "No, yeah" all the time
I hardly ever type it, but the words come out of my mouth fairly often
"No, yeah, you're right"
10:41 AM
@snailboat That must be annoying for people around you. Even when you sleep?
@oerkelens Bound by pragmatic context.
@snailboat Yeah, no, but that makes sense!
@snailboat :(
I suspect that d) could be true if we were talking about people claiming their health insurances.
Yeah-no and no-yeah are both linguistically interesting
You can even come across Yeah-no-yeahs and no-yeah-nos from time to time.
10:43 AM
I wonder how they would sound like.
I'm more of the Beatles style: yeah yeah yeah. That is why I might get to like that Swedish band
@DamkerngT. I think they'd typically be part of the same intonational phrase
"yeah but no" is common in any languages, I believe.
Anyway, I'm going to indulge in some addictions and sign off for a while... I should be working :)
10:44 AM
@DamkerngT. I think that sort of thing varies.
Even within an individual language.
@oerkelens see you later
See you around!
10:45 AM
I also think "yeah no" is likely to be significantly different from "yeah but no"
Although it's probably very difficult to discuss this sort of thing out of context
nods -- To me, it's difficult without the sound.
As Confucius analayzed, a yes could have a range of meanings: yes, maybe, to no.
The same goes to no, I think.
Oh, this reminds me, why Confucius is Confucius in English. I think his name is nothing like that.
Based on the passage, it might just be that sick people didn't want to report themselves as sick when unemployment rates were lower
10:49 AM
I haven't read it.
@snailboat I think it's better to be employed when it's possible.
> Latinization of Chinese K'ung Fu-tzu "K'ung the philosopher (or Master)"
Interesting! I usually pronounce his name as Kohng Juh.
@DamkerngT. K'ung Fu-tzu is Wade-Giles
It's Kǒng Fūzǐ
The latter is a title
Now I'm a bit curious. Checking some Thai webs.
Oh, Kǒng Fūzǐ is another variant here.
孔丘   Kǒng Qiū
孔夫子 Kǒng Fūzǐ "Master Kong"
10:54 AM
(Usually something like Kohng Fu Juh.)
孔子   Kǒng Zǐ   "Master Kong"
I will never manage to make stuff line up properly in chat :-)
In Japanese, it's this last name that is usually used
The code formatting could help. :D
I think so in Chinese as well
10:55 AM
Maybe in Thai, too?
I think so.
We usually pronounce Kong rhymed with oh, not King Kong.
The length of the vowel is unclear. :)
Technically, it's written as a short vowel in Thai, but people sometimes pronounce it with a long vowel.
Oh, I clicked a wrong one and I heard Kooshi. I think it's in Japanese.
The 日语 ones are Japanese
It was supposed to take you to the 汉语 ones :-)
11:02 AM
I remember that his morals gave him a hard latter-half life.
@snailboat Hehe. They include both, and more!
I'm rather ignorant about 孔子
Let's see
@DamkerngT. 吴语 Wu Chinese and 粤语 Yue Chinese
The Yue Chinese one is rather different
The Wu Chinese one seems to differ mainly in tones
11:20 AM
@DamkerngT. Since I know a bunch of kanji from Japanese, I have an easier time with written Chinese than spoken
I can lean on shared vocabulary much more easily in writing :-)
That's a big advantage!
But I'm really not very good at Chinese.
I guess you could do fine in China. :)
I'm still not sure what would happen to me in Beijing if I hadn't found that nice Hong Kong guy. :)
Have you spoken with many learners of Thai? I'm curious what sorts of pronunciation issues people might have. Maybe tones would be a major problem.
11:24 AM
It's really hard for them to get it right, and I understand that.
However, I think they're relatively very easy to understand.
Somehow, losing the tonal information doesn't have as much impact as we would think.
I can say that even an expat who has been living here for almost two decades still can't get it completely right.
Some people are very good at this, though.
My housemate is really good at mimicry.
Maybe it's true what they say about blind people having keener hearing sometimes to make up for it ;-)
Actually, I think there's research about that.
Oh, hmm, well, probably. I think some people were born that way, with their gifts.
11:30 AM
I think that a lot of gifts are developmental.
Like our discussion of absolute pitch the other day.
Every newborn has absolute pitch.
Hah! I didn't know that.
Every six-month-old can distinguish tones in tonal languages.
And all the phonemes of the world's languages.
11:31 AM
But we quickly grow to be specialists.
It's much harder to become one later in life.
Q: how to solve the ambiguity of "in" in this sentence

user1425We did the task in ten minutes. I am pretty sure that it means 1) It took us ten minutes to do the task. (We spent 10 minutes doing the task) However, I see no obstacle to suppose that it may also mean 2) We did the task after 10 minutes passed. (That is, "We did the task in ten minutes aft...

Oh, this is really interesting!
I didn't think of it as interesting until I really read it.
Me either.
What's that word? Aktionarts?
Lexical aspect.
11:38 AM
Oh, my!
Q: Some issues with the word quite

Lucian SavaI know the meaning of the word quite and how to use it in most of the cases. Yet, when it comes to negatives I am in a state of uncertainty. For example: I’m not quite right. And I’m completely wrong. Are they equivalent? Do they mean exactly the same thing? I don’t think...

Numbers now start at the number you type!!
I'm so excited about that!
No more 1., 1., 1., 1., ...
11:39 AM
Oh, they changed it!?
A: Numbering/bullet interpretation bug?

balphaYou can now start lists with numbers other than 1.; see Can't start a numbered list on a number other than 1.

I'm unreasonably happy about that.
I remember that I had to type &nbsp; in front of numbers to avoid the problem.
12:25 PM
@oerkelens I turned your chat message into a meta question:
Q: Robo-reviewers on ELL

snailplaneOccasionally, Stack Exchange receives suggested edits that replace a valid answer with spam. One particular answer on ELL has received this treatment fifty-two times (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 ...

Though I'm Robot, I'm no Robo-reviewer. :)
Oh, you TMed it!
12:43 PM
"What is this? Oh, my food. MY food. Yippie!" nom, nom
@DamkerngT. Probably by all of them. :-)
One instance that I think I haven't seen it anywhere else was a semicolon after a question mark. :)
Oh? ;-)
If you edited them to get together with no space in between, I would be able to say, I have seen one, from now on. :)
12:54 PM
Hey, all you said was after ;-)
I see. Oh, what a loophole of mine!
I recommend reading the posthttp://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/33174/the-word-spoken-as-an-adjective — rogermue 4 mins ago
I wish I could add a space there.
Very hard to click on.
And maybe a colon before the space.
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