English Language Learners

Anonymous

02:04

@DamkerngT. I would remove the comma after please and change closing to being closed

Anonymous

Also, instead of a parenthetical (see here), you should just hyperlink "proofreading is off-topic"

Anonymous

And "indicate what difficulties you find in your text" could probably be rephrased more naturally

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ahh... That's even better. A shiny new perfect response for ELL!

How about "Please edit your question and be more specific about the difficulties you find in your text"?

user4550

04:31

@CocoPop helo?

Please answer me in the question thread about would have

Damkerng T.

07:34

@Jim But M Swan in the practical Englsih usage says that with a verb reffering to an action, will you + infinitive usually introduced an order or request. So I guess the future progressive is common in the case. — Dmitry Fucintv 2 hours ago

But M. Swan says that the future progressive is also used to refer to future events (without progressive meaning) which are fixed or decided. — Dmitry Fucintv 17 mins ago

Those three canon posts would be handy, if they existed.

Jul 28 at 3:02, by StoneyB

You know what we need? Three Canonical Posts: One on How to Use the Dictionary. One on How to Use English Textbooks. And one on How to Use Real Grammars.

Couldn't agree more.

Anonymous

08:35

@CopperKettle Thank you for fixing my typo :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I admit that I'm fairly confused after reading that comment

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Reference grammars like CGEL aren't really designed for learners to use, although of course it's certainly possible

Anonymous

Well, I shouldn't paint all "reference grammars" with a broad brush.

Anonymous

Everyone who writes a book on grammar, I think, has their own intentions

Anonymous

One of the main goals of CGEL was to create an explicitly theoretical framework for English, one that's valid synchronically but not diachronically

Anonymous

08:41

It's not really designed to teach learners how English works

Anonymous

I think the authors hoped it would be helpful as a reference for, for example, creating pedagogical grammars like Swan's.

Anonymous

And in fact, Swan's grammar is based in part on CGEL.

Anonymous

(Yippee!)

Anonymous

Although I think he discarded a lot of what might be called theoretical baggage... :-)

Anonymous

Huddleston has a number of theoretical principles he sticks to pretty firmly

Anonymous

08:43

I do like, though, that CGEL sometimes gives alternative analyses some attention where they have descriptive value, even though the authors always pick a particular analysis as more theoretically valid

Anonymous

The example that comes to mind is the catenative auxiliary analysis (in "will have been being", the first verb is a predicator taking a non-finite VP complement "have been being", etc.) versus the verb group analysis ("will have been being" as a group is a main clause predicator)

Anonymous

They think the former is more theoretically valid, but present the latter anyway

Anonymous

Some people are particularly uncompromising when it comes to theory versus pedagogical needs.

Anonymous

I'm gradually learning to be more compromising. :-)

Damkerng T.

09:02

It just occurred to me a few days ago, that probably, I can think of English without thinking of tenses.

(I went from lots of tenses to two tenses and then to no tenses!)

Anonymous

To think of English as tenseless is to make a grave error.

Damkerng T.

No, I think it works fine.

Anonymous

Wow, it's hard communicating in tenseless English :-)

Anonymous

I got that one sentence down and gave up

Anonymous

It sounded so hoity-toity, too.

Anonymous

09:12

D'ah

Anonymous

Is!

Anonymous

I failed even on that one sentence.

Damkerng T.

It really works indeed. It's just a viewpoint shift. Let me explain.

Sounded is not past tense, it's just the past form.

Anonymous

I guess all I can do is communicate with minor sentences and fragments :-)

Damkerng T.

Sounds is not present tense, it's just the present form.

Anonymous

09:14

What does that mean?

Damkerng T.

Thinking of it this way is exactly the way Chinese (Mandarin, for example) and Thai work.

Anonymous

But a tense is a form.

Anonymous

So you'll need to explain the difference to me

Damkerng T.

In Chinese and Thai it just happens that present, past, and past perfect forms are identical.

Anonymous

Oh, you're positing wide-scale syncretism…

Anonymous

09:15

Some people do that for English, too.

Anonymous

They'd say English be has six subjunctive forms, be, be, be, be, be, and be

Damkerng T.

I think, internally, we can think of events in any time spheres roughly equivalently, in any languages.

So, internally, our brains operate roughly the same.

Anonymous

Oh! You've reinvented Chomsky's Universal Grammar.

Damkerng T.

But syntactically, the language we use at that instance forces us a bit to make our expression conformed to the language's syntax.

@snailboat Hah!

Anonymous

But we communicate quite different things semantically.

Damkerng T.

09:19

Yes, sometimes the external has effects on the internal too.

So, it's just roughly.

Anonymous

Well, good luck with your new Universal Grammar :-)

Damkerng T.

Externally, everything would be identical. (Or at least should be) :)

user4550

@snailboat

Is it possible to say "father and son were on good terms with each other"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Chomsky at one point posited "deep structure" and "surface structure"

CopperKettle

@snail

Anonymous

09:21

@user4550 It is possible but ungrammatical

user4550

books.google.com/…

CopperKettle

@snailboat: no problem! thank you for not downvoting my erroneous answer (0:

user4550

what about in this case?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat A-ha! Nice terms! Thank you.

Anonymous

But most linguists have abandoned deep structure as unnecessary

Anonymous

09:22

People say things like "underlying" and "surface"

Anonymous

I believe these are still useful metaphors, from time to time

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think it doesn't change what we speak or write much, no matter how many tenses we think there are in English. However, I think it could reduce the effort we need to learn English as a L2.

user4550

@snailboat "If I had been in the normal state of mind, I would have had to avoid talking to strangers." this has the "cannot help but" ring to it, except in the subjunctive mood?

Damkerng T.

(My metaphor is multiplication. There are many ways we can do multiplication. Output of all methods are the same, the differences seem to be the amount of effort needed to accomplish the task.)

Anonymous

I don't understand what empirical motivation you have for abandoning the notion that English has morphological forms whose primary purpose is to locate the speech in time

Damkerng T.

09:27

I didn't. Forms is exactly my word choice. It's the word tense that I choose to exclude it from the forms.

Anonymous

Oh, then how you define tense?

user4550

@snailboat Please...

Anonymous

Because that's how I define tense.

Damkerng T.

Tense = thinking of time

Tense != form

Anonymous

Oh. I'll continue using tense to refer to forms associated with time reference.

user4550

09:30

@snailboat...please don't ignore me

Anonymous

I'm not ignoring you.

Anonymous

I'm doing multiple things.

Anonymous

And you're a help vampire, so you're low on the priority list

Anonymous

But I'm not ignoring you

Damkerng T.

Let's consider: "If I had been in the normal state of mind, I would have had to avoid talking to strangers."

Anonymous

09:31

@user4550 Utterances have context. When we make judgments we have to supply a context, even if unconsciously, if none is provided

Damkerng T.

I'd say it's easier to think of had been and would have had to as forms separately from their meanings.

I think I should restart my browser.

Anonymous

Right, grammatical form is distinct from (but related to) semantics.

Damkerng T.

nods

user4550

3

Q: What is this "would have had to"?

This stranger talked to me. Usually, I would have had to think something bad would happen. But I followed him. (One Day in NY) BY Pat Mathew What is this "would have had to"?

grammar

i was talking abou this

Damkerng T.

I don't have enough information to conclude that that person wasn't "in the normal state of mind".

But I guess your interpretation is passable.

Anonymous

09:37

I follow Huddleston in distinguishing tense (a grammatical form) from time reference (a type of meaning). Tense, then, is a grammatical form whose primary (but not sole) purpose is to express time reference

Anonymous

And in that framework, we can say that the past tense is used for other reasons than past time reference

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, I like that idea.

But then, it must mean that Huddleston also thinks of the perfect as a tense too, besides the present tense and the past tense.

Anonymous

That's true.

Anonymous

It wasn't always. He originally wrote that we have two tenses, present and past, much like McCawley.

Anonymous

But between English Grammar: An Outline and CGEL, he came to the conclusion that perfects should be considered a type of secondary tense

Anonymous

09:41

And so the latter says that English has two tense systems: present versus past, and perfect versus non-perfect

Anonymous

Which of course overlap, giving us four grammatical categories of tense

Anonymous

(Although the perfect is expressed through an auxiliary rather than a morphological change in form, so that requires rewriting the definition to say "grammatical" rather than "morphological")

Anonymous

@user4550 I saw that question

Anonymous

This use of "I have to think X" means "I must think X [because it is so likely to be true]" = "I think X is very likely to be true"

Anonymous

It's somewhat informal, stress on have

Damkerng T.

09:43

I think they seem to try to separate forms from meanings, but the separation is not as clear as what they did in categories and functions of parts of speech.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. They set up grammatical categories and semantic categories, and then explain the relationships between the two

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

So "future time" is a semantic category which can be expressed, for example, with auxiliary will or with gonna or with an adjunct of time ("I leave for Japan on Thursday") or without any overt grammatical marking

Anonymous

Etc.

Damkerng T.

My thought experiment was about trying separate verb forms from their time spheres and once I did that, I found that I don't want to call tenses as tense anymore. They're better simply called form, imo.

But I'm okay to understand tenses as they are used in other frameworks.

Anonymous

09:47

Form is quite general

Anonymous

I think the desire to come up with more specific categories of form is natural, because it saves us work

Anonymous

That is, we don't have to say "the choice between the present and past forms" all the time, we can just use a single word

Anonymous

(This, of course, requires understanding how the present work defines that single word!)

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Speaking of tense:

Anonymous

09:49

0

Q: Explanation of the usage of Was And IS

Says i have this sentence: The Jolly Roger flying from the mast of the approaching ship indicated that it was a pirate ship We use was here because the ship can no longer be a pirate ship in the future And this : The voice of the aprroaching person indicated he is my father I'm ...

british-english

Damkerng T.

Wow, that's very new!

I think it supports my idea that it's better (easier to grasp) to separate forms from meanings.

I guess F.E. would love that question. :)

Anonymous

0

Q: "I like him" or "I liked him"

I often use this: I like him/her But sometimes, I hear people say: I liked him/her But the person referred to is not dead/deceased, so why use the past tense?

tense

Damkerng T.

Eh? Two in a row!

Ah, I see. The comment in the old answer pushed the OP in that direction.

Analyzing short sentences out of context is rather dangerous for me.

I'm sure that I will have something left uncovered.

Anonymous

Lascivious Grace uses dashes to introduce block quotes.

Damkerng T.

I haven't noticed that. (I didn't see any of his uses.)

Anonymous

09:56

They edited the OP's colons to dashes. I put them back (I had other stuff to edit, so why not?)

Damkerng T.

Oh! Well, hmm... that's weird.

Anonymous

And they use dashes in their own answers

Anonymous

0

A: One-word synonym - follow up

"Check up on". Even though the original meaning of "Check up on", as per MacMillanDictionary.com is- check up on - definition PHRASAL VERB [TRANSITIVE] check up on someone to find out information about someone, especially secretly It does fit in with your sentence- Seeing a...

Anonymous

I was thinking of editing this since there are other things to fix

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Oh, "as per MacMillanDictionary.com is- " makes it rather obvious.

I think check up on always means spy on to me.

Anonymous

10:00

I think it can have more innocent uses

Damkerng T.

Maybe some sort of background check?

Anonymous

> My beloved husband died about a month ago, and since then I have a fairly steady stream of people who are checking up on me.

Anonymous

They're seeing how she's doing.

Damkerng T.

Sounds like spying on but in good faith! :-)

Anonymous

I do think those two meanings are rather close, but I would say they're distinct

Anonymous

10:06

One is innocent and well-meaning, the other is usually unwelcome

Damkerng T.

Maybe checking up on is more neutral, while spying on always sounds negative.

Anonymous

Checking up on and spying on are distinct, I think.

Damkerng T.

Ahh...

I still don't like checking up on as an alternative for the OP's context anyway.

Checking up with might be okay. I don't know.

Anonymous

I don't like it in that context either.

Anonymous

It sounds impatient.

Anonymous

10:11

Follow up has a more neutral connotation. I think it's more tactful.

Damkerng T.

nods

I don't know how often it is, but I think it's very often to see an ELL question asking for an alternative of what already is the natural choice.

I'm not sure about their reasons, though I can speculate a few.

Anonymous

Single word requests are off-topic on ELL. We should focus on how to express something naturally, not how to express something within arbitrary game-like limits such as "the expression must be a single orthographic word". — snailplane 5 secs ago

Damkerng T.

Umm... Migrate to ELU, perhaps? :-)

Anonymous

Hehe.

Anonymous

I wonder where L.G. is from

Damkerng T.

10:15

They say Ohio, I think.

Anonymous

Yes, but they're not from Ohio, they're in Ohio

Anonymous

(Or else they've put a great deal of effort into writing like someone who's not from Ohio, but this seems less likely to me :-)

Damkerng T.

I guess they probably moved there from South Asia.

Anonymous

I saw that comment.

Anonymous

They do write several things much like another user on ELL

Damkerng T.

10:18

There are more than one country in South Asia, but not too many, just a few.

@snailboat Oh, I haven't noticed that. They are still too new for me.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. They don't seem like the same person.

Anonymous

But I noticed similarities.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

Which made me think they might be from the same place.

Damkerng T.

Strange. I think I haven't heard or seen Hong Kong people or Singaporeans say or write per before.

Anonymous

10:25

I didn't say who or where! :-)

Damkerng T.

I wasn't being specific; I meant it in general. :)

Anonymous

Actually, many Singaporeans have good English, since they speak Singlish natively, which has sociolectal variation from basilectal to Standard English

Damkerng T.

(I brought up South Asia myself, and I tried to recall if I've ever heard per from Far East before.)

Anonymous

Asia has very disparate linguistic communities

Anonymous

What do you think as per makes obvious?

Damkerng T.

10:28

According to my memory, as per is used only in BrE and InE, and in BrE, they usually use it with care.

Anonymous

Not true.

Anonymous

I use as per.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

Just, y'know, not nearly as much :-)

Anonymous

corpus2.byu.edu/glowbe/?c=glowbe&q=32404467

Damkerng T.

10:29

I bet: only in formal contexts?

Anonymous

Oh, certainly.

Anonymous

Searching informal chat logs though, I can find some instances as per written by American chatters

Damkerng T.

How should I interpret those numbers?

Anonymous

Those are normalized per million

Anonymous

So they're relative frequencies.

Damkerng T.

10:31

Ahh...

Anonymous

An example from chat logs, written by a male American in 2012: "the japanese girl really messed up, and after she threw the weights down, she just smiled and waved *really cute*, and so everything was ok and everyone smiled and congratulated her anyway" "as per japanese custom"

Damkerng T.

I guess they wouldn't say "as per my opinion".

Anonymous

A different male American chatter in 2013, talking about ant poison: "hmph, maybe i need to sprinkle some of the bait around a bit" "i'll wait and see if they grab it anyway, as per the directions"

Damkerng T.

Hmm... They probably would.

Anonymous

I can find some instances by female chatters. They look like they're lower in frequency, but I don't have enough data to come to that conclusion

Anonymous

10:34

It's uncommon, in any case

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hmm.

Anonymous

Seems like a strange phrase.

Anonymous

(in AmE, not InE)

Anonymous

It would probably be "in my opinion"

Anonymous

Which is a common enough phrase that it's often abbreviated to "IMO"

Damkerng T.

10:36

nods

user4550

so it is like mandatory? @snailboat

Anonymous

@user4550 Is what like mandatory?

user4550

is it like "that question.

would have had to do

Anonymous

It's a figure of speech.

Anonymous

It's not a literal obligation

user4550

10:37

This stranger talked to me. Usually, I would have had to think something bad would happen. But I followed him. (One Day in NY) BY Pat Mathew

Anonymous

Say, where do you find these books, anyway?

user4550

is it like " i cannot help but do this?"

from libraries

Anonymous

Your library has an eclectic collection.

user4550

and not necessarily books

short stories in dead magazines

Anonymous

By the way, when someone asks for a cite, they aren't generally asking for a link

user4550

10:39

i see.

Anonymous

Links are very helpful if they're available, of course

Anonymous

But just being able to find out a minimum about the source, for example when it was written, would be helpful

user4550

i see.

thank you

"I cannot help but do this " is the nuance there?

Anonymous

Well, I was using the simpler example "I have to think X"

user4550

If I had been in a different situation, I would have had to check around for suspicious signs.

Anonymous

10:41

This is "I would have had to think X"

user4550

what about that sentence,...is it "I would have found it necessary to do ..?"

to check out fro suspicious signs.?

to paraphrase.

Anonymous

I'm going to let someone else answer your question

user4550

but Cocopop never replies to me

why not help me when you can...

Anonymous

Answerers are under no obligation to help anyone. They choose to spend some of their time, their mental energy and other resources to help people, and that choice is entirely up to them

Anonymous

Obviously every answerer has other things to do, so they're making decisions about all sorts of trade-offs

Anonymous

10:44

"Do I want to go make food? Or do I want to go type up an answer?"

Anonymous

"I have a headache. Do I really want to put the energy in right now?"

Anonymous

Answering always has a cost, and no one owes you a thing

Anonymous

So it's not fair to ask the question you just did.

user4550

ok sorry

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Thanks for pointing that out about "as per", by the way.

Damkerng T.

10:47

Eh? Umm... I think it was you who cleared things up for me. :)

It should be me who thank you.

Anonymous

I wouldn't've thought to do that search for as per if you hadn't said it made something obvious.

Anonymous

I thought, "What does it make obvious?" :-)

Anonymous

I didn't realize (for example) InE use was so extensive

Damkerng T.

Oh! I thought it was obvious to everyone. :)

Anonymous

Well, I'm used to as per in AmE

Anonymous

10:48

So it doesn't stand out to me, but certain uses of it certainly do (as per my opinion!)

Damkerng T.

However, I didn't expect that AmE also uses it too.

(Browsing through those examples, I think the way AmE uses as per is quite similar to in BrE.)

Anonymous

Sounds reasonable to me. It looked like the frequency was higher in BrE, but I wouldn't guess that the kinds of uses would be different

Anonymous

Of course, I could be wrong since it's a (relatively) low frequency item and I'm not exposed to BrE as often

Damkerng T.

I never tried GLOWBE before! This could be fun!

Anonymous

11:03

Shall we reopen this?

Anonymous

0

Q: discrepancy vs ambiguity

Blockquote Which word is appropriate for the blank at the end of this sentence and why? The question of forgery in photography has lately become nontrivial. Prices for vintage prints (those made by a photographer soon after he or she made the negative) so drastically ballooned in the 19...

word-usage word-choice

Anonymous

GloWbE is often capitalized like this ←

Anonymous

Like NaNoWriMo

Damkerng T.

Hehe. Thank you!

Anonymous

But Nabisco rather than NaBisCo

Anonymous

11:05

When I was young, I didn't realize there were acronyms that took multiple letters from a given word

Damkerng T.

Thanks guys,it was due to all of you I reflected what went wrong and found that I hadn't included my thought process, as it was indicative of my own research. Now I had included the part on how I approached this question. It also resulted more thorough researching about this site. — arijitpal2009 Aug 6 at 20:59

Maybe reopen is unnecessary.

Anonymous

But there are many: SONAR is SoNaR

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. After it was closed, they thought about the problem more and edited more research into their question to make their problem clearer

Anonymous

Then they left that comment

Damkerng T.

My favorite: cepstrum

Anonymous

11:06

I do not know this word

Anonymous

Oh! Signal processing

Damkerng T.

It's an invented word, and the reversed-spelling is intended!

Anonymous

Hee.

Damkerng T.

(They also have quefrency and rahmonic. :-)

Anonymous

I wonder if that's one of the many things I've learned and forgotten.

Anonymous

11:08

Stupid brain.

Anonymous

I hate being ignorant in areas of interest to me, but I never seem to stop being ignorant ;-)

Anonymous

I'm doomed.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, I misunderstood the comment.

Hmm...

> The meaning which fits here is the difference between conflicting facts and claims, which is clearly the case here. Again the meaning of ambiguity is here. In the last meaning it is given that an expression whose meaning cannot be determined from its context. I can also extrapolate this definition to fit in this particular scenario here.

> Why this vintage prints were sold at such high prices against the non vintage ones itself couldn't be clearly understood! So I thought that both the words have a chance in this blank and hence having a confusion.

I reread this, and it sounds more like the OP tried to explain what they thought (maybe before asking the question), and after reading the answer, they understood it, so they came back, added their own idea to the question, and left the comment. -- They're nice!

Anonymous

After the question was closed, the OP explained their research and thought process. Since that's what we asked for when we closed it, why don't we reopen it now? — snailplane 9 secs ago

Damkerng T.

Wait, you mean reopen it for new answers? I think the OP already understands their own question now (and that's why they came back and added those information, maybe for our readers in the future).

Anonymous

11:20

Doesn't matter.

Anonymous

We asked for details, they gave details, we should reopen.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I get your point now.

Anonymous

But it's not clear to me that they do understand now.

Damkerng T.

I noticed that they wrote everything in the past tenses in their edit and comment.

Anonymous

I think their idea of how time is expressed in English is wrong.

Anonymous

11:22

So I tried not to read into that.

Anonymous

But I noticed it too.

Damkerng T.

I think the OP can handle the simple past and the simple present rather well.

But I'm okay to reopen it for the other reason.

It could even get some new answers. :)

Anonymous

It could!

user116848

18:53

in English Language & Usage, 8 mins ago, by Arrowfar

Man, I hate gold digger chicks. Not that I am rich or anything.

user116848

in English Language & Usage, 3 mins ago, by Arrowfar

►

user116848

19:28

►

user116848

20:14

The same thing happened to me :) I was studying at some Institute where this very good looking girl started talking to me and I thought she was nice and all. But after some time when she discovered that I am not some rich kid she started avoiding me. Funny, right? So I did some research and found out (by her actually!) that she thought that I was some rich kid which I am absolutely not. I still find that very funny experience :D

user116848

LMAO

user116848

But I guess I 'look' rich. Hmm, yeah.

user116848

See ya guys!

Damkerng T.

21:15

Ahh... Sad things happen.

user116848

I know, right :)

user116848

Hello! Damks

Damkerng T.

I hope you will find the right girl for you. No, scratch that. I'm sure you will.

Hello @Arrowfar!

user116848

haha. Thanks.

user116848

@DamkerngT. So do you have anyone special in your life Damks?

user116848

21:19

Except your pet I mean :D

Damkerng T.

Maybe. :)

user116848

okay. Don't know don't tell, right? haha

user116848

Do you have a pet cat or a dog? I can't seem to remember

user116848

Or a robot? :)

Damkerng T.

Hagu is my cat. He's a fat lazy cat, but he's my cat.

user116848

21:22

I see. Hagu---->meaning?

Damkerng T.

(Somehow I always worry about his weight. :-)

user116848

So he eats too much? :)

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar It's something I made up in a few seconds. The vet needed his name. :)

user116848

Oh, I see hah

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar He's definitely not the fattest cat, but he's quite something when it comes to weight. :)

user116848

21:24

Then he must look creepy :)

user116848

I feel kinda scared by fat cats :)

Damkerng T.

Well, people say he is adorable. :)

user116848

I am sure he is.

Damkerng T.

I posted his photo once (or twice?), let me find it for you.

user116848

I think I saw it in the past though :)

user116848

21:27

A lot of people share their their pets photos here I have noticed.

fahdijbeli

hi

user116848

hi

Damkerng T.

I just found it. (My browser crashed three times. :) It's here: i.sstatic.net/9aoxt.jpg

fahdijbeli

kitten haha

user116848

@DamkerngT. Hagu is adorable! I don't think he looks fat :)

Damkerng T.

21:31

@Arrowfar The angle helps. :)

fahdijbeli

Damkerng dont feed him haha

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yeah. But when I look closely, then yes haha

user116848

He has a large tummy :D

fahdijbeli

by the way he is handsome :)

Damkerng T.

21:33

Thank you!

That's true! He has an extra belly pocket too. (I guess it's his species thing.)

user116848

@DamkerngT. I thought you must have a robot pet :)

Damkerng T.

I thought of that once too, but I changed my mind once I saw the price!

user116848

^ sentence grammatical, right?

Damkerng T.

I think think is safer.

user116848

I see. But I know you have a cat. That's why I used "thought".

Damkerng T.

21:38

I'm not the best judge around here to judge this kind of thing. To me, it's okay. But I would avoid that in my writing.

user116848

right

user116848

snailboat isn't here today

Damkerng T.

nods

By the way, I think these verbs work differently: say, think, know, etc.

user116848

If she were here then I would ask her

user116848

Nods

Damkerng T.

21:40

:D

Hello @F.E.! @Arrowfar, you could ask F.E. about that line; F.E. is with us now!

user116848

@F.E. Oh, Hello! Mr FE :D

F.E.

@Arrowfar That's fine. :) -- "thought" is good here for that's the use of a preterite for politeness. Not only do you think that now, but you had thought that before in the past, and so, the preterite (past-tense) is usually the preferred. It is softer on the ear.

user116848

I pinged Damks

Damkerng T.

Ahh... A neat explanation!

user116848

@F.E. good explanation!

F.E.

21:45

3

Q: Why is "herself" required in this particular sentence?

Why is a reflexive pronoun, i.e. herself, grammatically required in the following sentence? I gave Susie a picture of herself. Compare with: I gave Susie a picture of her. This sentence doesn't seem to be able to mean I gave Susie a picture of Susie. It means I gave her a ...

grammar grammaticality pronouns reflexives

This is a neat thread, for its grammatical questions. :)

> Do it yourself.

Damkerng T.

Herself is more specific, I guess. (I haven't read the answers yet.)

Oh, there are three different cases!

F.E.

(cont.) That one will probably cause a lot of confusion. (The #3 "Do it yourself" question.)

@DamkerngT. Yes, using "herself" gets rid of the ambiguity. :)

Too bad the OP didn't number the 3 example questions.

Compare #3: a) "Do it yourself"

to b) "You do it yourself"

to c) "You, do it yourself"

I'm going to number the subvariations, that'll allow use to "chat" interactively. :)

What is interesting is if those were compared to: d) "Do it, you!"

to e) "You, do it!"

and to a non-standard: f) "You do it, you!"

What ya all think? :D

Damkerng T.

a could be read as either b or c, depending on the tone; c is clearly a command, but b isn't; d ~ e; f could be read as either a command or just simply as a statement

F.E.

Yes, both "d" and "e" use a vocative "you".

They are similar to: "Do it, Tom!" and "Tom, do it!"

Damkerng T.

I should've used a) instead of just a.

F.E.

21:56

These are all interrogative clauses, and let's assume that they are all commands/directives, and they are all in "written form" (not verbal/spoken form).

So, they are all basically mean the same, though the syntax and functions of the parts might be slightly different.

And that's where the fun comes in: in identifying the syntactic functions of the various parts! :D

Damkerng T.

Then I guess a, b, c aren't much different from each other; the same for d, e, f, I'd think. -- nods

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