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12:04 AM
Good morning @Matt, was having some mouse issues.
Yes, like that, exactly!
3 hours later…
3:07 AM
"It's true for everyone." This is not really correct. Different people learn in different ways. Though hands on is the most common effective method in the general population. haygroup.com/leadershipandtalentondemand/ourproducts/…ReallyTiredOfThisGame yesterday
^^^ +1
3:18 AM
Yeah, reallytiredofthisgame posts some great stuff
4:14 AM
quiet in here tonight...
6 hours later…
10:09 AM
Q: applying for PG after mbbs in other country

user26016i am an Indian citizen doing final year MBBS in Russia.Do i have to pass MCI compulsorily to do pg in other countries or i can skip MCI and straightaway and apply for pg in other countries

2 hours later…
11:53 AM
Dagnabbit, is there a way to edit your edit and have it not go back into the queue? I totally just did a codeblock format only to forget to delete the ` tick marks the op used. (my boneheaded edit should have been declined, imo)
12:11 PM
@Bmo If you paste the link, someone can accept the edits real quick.
12:23 PM
hey Jmac, can i ask a quick question?
12:36 PM
@acolyte Sure, what's up?
(bear in mind that I am generally awful at answering questions)
I was wondering whether past familiarity with a hiring supervisor would make a more informal cover letter appropriate.
I pointed you out specifically because i remember you from Beta days, and i know you have rep for days. So i figured you'd have a decent opinion.
@acolyte How familiar? And is he an informal type of person?
Also, do you have his contact info/kept in touch with him since you first met him?
Well, I worked at this company for my final co-op cycle while at Drexel. I graduated back in June (so i worked there last summer, essentially).
Hey @Yannis.
@acolyte, is this for a publicly displayed position? Or are you more sending a resume as a probe to see if they have something for you?
and it was always an easy relationship with the team. My boss included. Weekly Game of Thrones episode discussions and such. But i'd most likely be submitting this app via their online portal, which includes a place to paste a cover letter.
Publically displayed.
12:48 PM
What I'd suggest is attach a formal cover letter that clearly states you worked for them that summer because if it's sent through the site, you can't be sure the hiring manager will be the one looking at it.
In addition, I'd send the hiring manager an e-mail on the side saying that you've applied for the position, and that you hope you will be able to work together again soon
(the e-mail can be informal)
that wouldn't be seen as a bit presumptive? the whole "hope to work together with you soon" part
@acolyte It's true, right?
If it's true, that's not an issue. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, but no harm in showing a bit of enthusiasm and saying that you hope that's what happens
hmm, A'ight fair enough. Thanks
If you want to make it weaker, feel free to. Saying, "I hope we get a chance to work together again" is fine too, or even weaker if you want.
1:10 PM
hey all
i guess I'm misreading this
Good morning @Matt.
is this not a "what should I do?"
Q: What to do when I can't do the work?

newbieHere is a bizarre situation I am in. I hold advanced technical degree, recognized as a talented person. So far, all I did is research, and then decided to enter the industry. A company hired me after grilling interview. I did well. I could answer most of the questions, and although the technolog...

@MattGiltaji It looks like it is to me.
I could have sworn there was a question just like this a few weeks ago.
@Bmo The site is littered with the corpses of that question asked over and over.
1:15 PM
@bmo, yeah, me too
where is @enderland to find the dupe?
Closing as a dupe if there is a good one is fine, or closing as 'what should I do?' is fine if they're not.
He is napping. He must hibernate to gather his power lest he get elected.
I has potential though, I mean that's a good topic. "What to do when you're out in the weeds and missing deadlines"
nearly identical
Q: Got in over my head on a project, how do I tell my boss I can't do it anymore?

Matthew VerstraeteI have been working as a Jr. Developer at my current job for about a year and half. After been at my job for about 5 months I volunteered to do complete rewrite of a very old system that the company had. At the time I said I would do it I was confident it would take a few months at the most, but ...

@MattGiltaji Well then the one I was thinking of was a dupe of that! Good gravy!
flagged and commented
but not sure how effective it is because it already has answers accepted... :/
1:26 PM
Flags flags everywhere
so is this how the site looks to a mod?
@MattGiltaji Something like that. Only more flags.
ooh, found a better one
Needs more flagz.
throw more flags, more flags, more flags...ok, stop flags
1:33 PM
50 rep minus.
If you post in the right place, there is no way to get from the chat, to the middle, into the meta section
its not even remotely imaginable
Just checked with the 'job' tag and the message is The tag 'job' is not allowed. However it looks like the burninate detection is looking for an exact match as it didn't flag "jobs" as too close. — Matt Giltaji 10 mins ago
@Matt, we can create open-ended ways to stop tags too I believe.
ooh, that would be cool
i think everyone on that thread is down with burninating, just trying to figure out the details
BTW, for those wondering what BMO and I are talking about, here is the link (NSFW):
The one that is there is ^(job|work)$ so, I think that's regex. Or something. So I assume that doesn't match jobs. I don't know regex.
@jmac yep thats regex
1:39 PM
So I think we just add to that list, or something. By 'we' I mean 'someone who actually knows what they're doing'
it will match exactly job or work
can you specify the message too? or just the regex
like could it pop up, the XYZ tag is not allowed, see this thread (link)
I don't know. I don't see the message, so I assume that is done somewhere else.
probably hardcoded hten
However, what you can do, is write a to explain why it's important.
ooh, MSE points
1:41 PM
And then I can take that feature-request, research how hard it is to change, and determine whether or not it is worth poking a dev about.
Doesn't need to be MSE, can be Meta TWP. Whichever. All the same to us.
MSE has reps :D
But yeah, since it would likely be a network wide change, go ahead and do it on MSE if you would prefer.
and might have similar features that have been declined
i'll research it
@jmac the surgeon general warns that poking devs can be hazardous to your health.
Bear in mind I will be on vacation for the next week, so I may need a reminder when I come back.
@Bmo They always get more budget for better poking implements. How could I hope to win?
1:42 PM
congrats on your vacay, anywhere exciting?
Is that exciting?
(it is incredibly exciting to me)
I'm jealous.
i'm jealous too
that sounds awesome
As well you should be!
It looks amazing.
It's on my top list of places to go. There and the Maldives.
1:45 PM
Last year I visited, I stayed here
I'm not even going to look at it.
that looks incredible
It's a stupid expensive tropical resort.
did they float flowers in your bath like some of the pics? (not able to link for some reason)
I do not reserve these places, as that requires me to cry over how much it costs. I let someone else reserve it for me, and just turn a blind eye to price so I can enjoy it.
Most places do that. Yeah.
Plus all the Mangosteen and Dragonfruit and whatever you can eat. Whatever is in season.
I cannot wait.
2:03 PM
hmm, is it considered bad to put down a reference from the company you're applyingto?
*applying to
@acolyte Why would it be? Though I'd ask the reference to make sure it's cool first.
I don't know...i'm new to this stuff
i graduated in june, lol
2:50 PM
Sometimes companies have an "internal referral" process, where the employee fills out a form and basically acts as a reference, but it has a higher weight than a plain old reference
3:39 PM
Can anyone think of a way to make this question on-topic for the site?
Q: Is it expected to have side projects/work related hobbies in IT?

ChrisI will soon have my masters degree in Computer Science and will start applying for jobs. Recently I read an answer to a question about what companies expect from a fresh graduate, where someone said they expect the graduates to work on private projects to show the future employer you have a lot...

since it seems to be specifically seeking answers from hiring managers, it almost seems like it could be on-topic here
I was considering editing out the gender-specific stuff and voting to reopen, as it seems like a decent software-industry tagged question for hiring managers
4:06 PM
@Rachel, we definitely have had similar (do I need side projects?) questions in the past.
May want to search for dupes and figure out how/if those ones worked.
And with that I'm off for vacation.
@jmac Thanks, and enjoy your vacation!
ahh I see, if I edited it like that then it would probably be a duplicate of this one :
Q: How do side projects influence a hiring manager's decision when hiring new developers?

user99244I am going to graduate from college with a diploma in May & I will be completing my last internship in April. I plan to start applying to full time jobs in a few weeks and I really want to stand out. Moreover, I know I will not get a job right away but I do want to utilize that time to make mysel...

hrrm or perhaps not
4:35 PM
I think I remember a highly-voted one with a good answer on it @Rachel, maybe it didn't use 'side project' but something similar.
I looked around for one, but can't find it anywhere
oh well, I made an edit which I hope will be enough, and have cast the 2nd reopen vote
personally I think it's a good question, and one many new IT graduates would want to know the answer to (I wanted to know the answer to that when I first started)
now if we can only get her to accept a different answer, or get the gender stuff out of the accepted answer....
so we removed the gender portion of the question and invalidated the majority of the answers?
I wouldn't really say invalidated since most of the answers look like they tried to address both questions
Personally I thought the top voted answer was the best, and don't think it has any gender reference in it
and the accepted one really doesn't focus onthe gender issue, however it's confusing at first because of the way the OP's introduction is written
hrm maybe I'll edit that one a tiny bit to clarify
true, the top voted answers focus more on the side projects and less on the gender, but many of them still mention stuff about being a woman... a visitor from google might infer that they mentioned it because the poster was a woman rather than that she had specifically asked about women vs men
but I can't really find a similar enough dupe
there are lots of questions that ask "how do I include my hobbies" but not why hiring managers would want to see it
4:51 PM
Personally I think it's a good question for the site - its one many new IT graduates have
it just needs to be cleaned up a bit
I don't have any problem with the question either
think we could get a few more reopen votes?
I edited the accepted answer too
@enderland In reply to your question about being a woman in the IT industry... I actually feel it does make a difference. However how much of a difference depends on the company and can't really be quantified by a set of statements :)
To companies/hiring mangers that care about gender, I feel like it's more of an advantage here in the US as they're more likely to try and be politically correct and balance genders in a team. But in other cases, I get the feeling I am scrutinized more than males simply because I'm an abnomally for the person interviewing me, so they take note of me. More often than not its not a conscious decision.
However the majority of times (especially with larger companies), my gender has no basis whatsoever in how interviews and/or job offers play out
that's the painful part about bias, its very difficult to find a neutral ground
there are some people who will go too lenient
or they will go too harsh to prove they are not playing favorites
5:06 PM
I remember a study I read about once.... doctors were given pictures of patients and a description of what the patient said was the problem, and were asked what they would diagnose/prescribe
and it was found that doctors would often make subconscious decisions based on the person's appearance and/or race
none of the doctors would have said appearence/race mattered to them, and if I recall correctly almost all were very surprised at the result
hrm wonder if I can find that study
but the point is, often people do unintentionally discriminate based appearance, gender, religion, etc without even being aware of it
hrrm maybe it was this one
very interesting
> Indeed, unless we intentionally go out of our way to learn about and become aware of our own bias, it is likely to spill out at the most inopportune time, like during a stressful traffic stop (in the case of a law enforcement officer) or during a medical emergency in the ER. As powell observed, “when there's tension between conscious and unconscious drives, the unconscious usually wins.”
yeah, I heard about it on the radio one day by some guy who studies social psychology, and found it very interesting too
my wife has a doctorate in psych, so I hear all about this kind of stuff
@jmac, did you go on your flight yet?
5:20 PM
@MattGiltaji 9 hours or so.
i found this
Q: Allow adding a specific message / guidance to blacklists

Shog9We don't always blacklist problematic tags or terms, but when we do it's because they've become such a nuisance on a site that we can't control them any other way. Vague / meta tags that keep coming back, domains or urls that we really don't want links to, etc. When someone tries to use a blackl...

I am on vacation though.
puts up sign: gone fishin'
so is this a functionality that we have but are not using?
@Matt, post on meta! "How do we do this thing Shog talks about?" and then someone will talk to someone, and BOOM! answer.
5:22 PM
(not from me though)
(I am on vacation)
Leaving in fact. See you in a week and change!
see you
don't forget to vote for enderland!
5:37 PM
A: software-industry tag discussion

Matt GiltajiAgainst a foe with multiple heads, we must strike from multiple directions! If we cannot burninate software-industry because it will rise again, then we need to stick its disembodied head on a spear outside the front gates, as a warning to all others! (apologies for the imagery, I've been watch...

6:04 PM
@jmac Well you were not wrong! A wild Shog appeared!
First off, someone needs to write a really good justification for why y'all don't want or need this tag or others like it. Then you do any preliminary cleanup that's needed (closing / editing / deleting questions so-tagged). Then I make it so the tag never existed. Then I blacklist it with a link to your post explaining why the problem you think is special to the software industry isn't and you should feel bad for thinking it was. Then anyone trying to re-create the tag gets a link to your post and feels bad and doesn't use it. — Shog9 ♦ 15 mins ago
yay, cleaning up 477 questions!
or actually, just the ones where bad tags are the only tags, so 17 by BMO's chart
A: software-industry tag discussion

RachelI like the software-industry tag To me, tags are filter mechanisms that allow me to filter questions for ones that are most likely to interest me, or that I feel I would be uniquely qualified to answer. I do not know of any other way to filter the posts for ones that are specific to just the s...

always the contrarian :p
> (As a side note, I fully support industry-specific tags providing there is something unique about the question/industry that makes it different from a general generic answer that would apply to every single industry)
6:11 PM
well yeah
imagine when TWP gets huge
the problem as I see it is that the vast majority of the software-industry tags do not have something unique
we could have huge subsections dedicated to specific industries, like Stack Overflow does with lanauges
people may not want to browse anything outside of the [software-industry] tag because that's what they work in
and are uniquely quallifed to answer in
and imo, most industries are unique in some way
just pulling from the most recent examples
Q: Is a certificate of experience valid after the organization has closed down?

Rajaprabhu AravindasamyI am from India and I got an offer from a software company here. The human resource team of that company asking me to submit evidence of 36 months of valid experience when joining. I have that, but 9 of those months were with a company that has closed down more than 2 years ago. The company is no...

VERY relevant what industry that is from
how would the answers be different if this wasn't a software company?
6:14 PM
I think the biggest problem is that the software industry overlaps...just about everything.
different creditting agencies, different turnover in credentials, etc
sure there's some overlap with other industries, however there probably isn't a generic catch-all answer for all industries
I think @IanHolstead once mentioned he works for an insurance company. I work for manufacturing but our companies are not, technically software industries.
its true, but your job is with software development isn't it?
i work in IT for financial service companies
ie. the software industry
6:16 PM
To a degree.
I work for financial services, however most of my workplace experience is with the software industry since that is the industry of jobs I apply to
the point is, tags are here to catagorize and filter posts for users
right, so if they are not properly filtering
and I find the software-industry tag very useful for users to filter down to just questions that are relevant there
then they are not useful
If the tag is over used it's not useful.
Oh drat...slow fingers.
6:17 PM
I'm pretty sure every question with the software-industry tag has been asked by someone working in the software industry or seeking answers from someone working in the software-industry
Q: How do I learn without being annoying to the people around me?

Jonathan StantonI am not new at what I do but I still have a lot to learn. When people ask me for help I am generally really happy to share my insight. When people critique my work it's hard for me to swallow but getting defensive at people for pointing out my flaws wont make me a better person or win any frien...

again, hwo is this limited to only the software industry
aside from the tag, there is nothing about software
to work int he software industry, you need to be constantly learning
it's not a set of skills you aquire once, and you're good for life
financial regulations are always changing
learning is very important to any software developer, and it is frequently part of our job
market conditions are always changing
you need to keep learning in every industry
6:19 PM
the same could not be said of other industries, such as factory workers or sales
sure it is
people don't pay you to work at mcdonalds so you can learn or invent better techniques for flipping burgers
they pay you to flip burgers
but you would need to learn how to cook the new items that come out
the monthly specials and such
sure, that's what training is for
lol mcdonalds monthly specials....
Well, what if we keep it contained to 'professional jobs'
6:21 PM
you trying to say fast-food workers aren't professional?
I dunno, what does "professional" mean....
A career job is what I meant.
of, relating to, or connected with a profession.
"young professional people"
synonyms: white-collar, nonmanual More
antonyms: blue-collar
(of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.
"a professional boxer"
or to quote wikipedia.... "A professional is a member of a profession" :)
I could see a question along the lines of "I'm having trouble getting the chef to teach me how to cook the new SuperBurger, how can I learn faster"
and I would vote it as a dupe of the question i linked earlier
sure, then it's a question about interpersonal relationships at work, how to get your boss to teach you something
6:23 PM
there's nothing wrong with closing an industry-tagged question as a duplicate to another industry-tagged question providing that the answer for both is identical, and there are no other angles to consider for one profession or the other
Well I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything.
@Bmo, type faster :p
Q: Can a "not-so-good" project on a resume hurt my chances?

ZaenilleI'm currently working on a website that's not-so-good. It has been for years and I'm hired as a contractor to improve it for 3 months. What I'm worried about is when I do put it on my resume, even though I would have improved it by the end of the contract, it would still be an overall bad site d...

I'm over-analyzing my statements now.
what if this was about a carpenter that made a poor quality table?
and what if it was a job for a cashier at a grocery store?
once again, there is no one generic catch-all answer, so I think an industry-specific tag is fine here
if a carpenter posts the same question for the carpentry-industry, and the answer is the exact same with no other information, then close it as a duplicate
that said, I doubt a carpenter will have the same question :)
6:26 PM
but why is software-industry special in that it gets to be the catch all?
its not, its just the first one posted, and typically newer questions get closed as duplicates of older ones, not vise versa :)
also currently I think it has the largest industry-specific user base :)
hrrm I forgot this is why I quit places like TWP... too distracting from work :)
was always way more interesting to talk to people in chat, or work at cleaning up questions, than it was to work
.... takes me instantly back to the internet of the 90s....
Lacking <blink>s
haha yeah @Bmo I was just thinking that
6:31 PM
its microsoft, not geocities or angelfire
True, true.
i remember I was doing a report in school about the american civil war back in the day
stumbled on these geocities pages with rotating confederate flags... very creepy
Lycos? Dogpile?
and the <marquee>... so much <marquee>
lycos, go get it!
someone emailed me the old code for a website I did back when I was like... 13 or something
and I didn't even recognize it as mine
black background, neon fonts, flaming orange/yellow graphics...
I can't imagine designing something so bad nowadays
6:35 PM
What's funny is I spent some time last year on a project making a database fed text crawler in jQuery and I'm like...marquee, so we meet again.
(From scratch because, screw black boxes amirite)
yeah i think my geocities page was #ff0000 on #000000 background
but at least I didn't do marquee or blink
some code i was working on recently was "optimized" for users with 56k modems
remember java applets?
7:14 PM
I just want to say.... I was highly amused by browsing the Careers.SE front page and seeing the picture of a box of "Super Dickmann's" on the front page :)
@MattGiltaji @Rachel @Bmo Wow that conversation turned quickly!
I'm bored at work, what can I say :(
I actually clicked on the link by accident, and I"m like "hey Vancouver, I grew up there!" so started looking at photos
I wasn't actually looking for a new job or anything :)
ah I got it, these are stock photos, rearranged at random when the page loads...
maybe its just me having a dirty mind, but it seemed funny to have a picture of "Super Dickmanns" right next to pictures of an apple, hotdog, and banana
(on the original tag topic) I think you all make valid points (even if it takes @Bmo longer to make them) but I feel like your relying too much on confirmation bias to make your arguments. Yes there are questions tagged software-industry which shouldn't be and there are questions which are tagged software-industry which majorly change the question and answer. Example of questions which prove your point dont really matter when there are 400+ plus questions with the tag...
Sorry if I come across as condescending or offensive I dont mean to be! I just dont think that it gets us any closer to a resolution...
@IanHolstead no you are dead on with confirmation bias
if burninating is too harsh, what we need to do is retag the questions that are better left as generic
and leave it in place on the ones which do deserve it
like questions about code questions during interviews, etc
@MattGiltaji I'm thinking that is the the right idea, but I also have a few others
7:25 PM
@IanHolstead maybe edit the meta post then?
Im thinking that maybe we should (slightly) embrace the job related tags
@MattGiltaji im going to post an answer :)
like software-dev instead of software-industry?
yes, but also other jobs like hr-professional
limit them
so we can have predefined tags for jobs (like having existing tags for software-professional, hr-professional) and require people to post in the meta if they want their industry added
otherwise the post should be retaged
BTW off-topic for this meta discussion, <rant>I spent the last hour trying to make some javascript and html5 work in chrome, only to discover it is firefox only</rant>
@IanHolstead I'm not sure if we can limit the tagging
to ahve it blessed first
that way industries are not excluded (because all industries have their own issues)
@MattGiltaji Im hoping that if we have a meta post with the blessed tags and feature it for a while, people will just be trained to retag or meta propose on sight
if we indicate that removing a unholy tag is a valid edit, then why not! its an easy edit and free rep!
@MattGiltaji I feel bad for you son...
7:31 PM
@IanHolstead them's the dangers of new semi-supported tags. caniuse.com is nice but not perfect
@MattGiltaji yeah. Its also why I run screaming from front end
I let some one else do it for me #twitter-bootstrap
hrm I like the idea of just removing the tags if they are not relevant at all to the context of the question or answer
but I don't think I like an "approved list of industry specific tags" meta post
way too much work, and SE has no way of supporting it
@Rachel mmm I guess.
@Rachel But it feels wrong to ONLY have a tag for software-devs why are we so special?
If I worked in HR and wanted to find helpful advice for the workplace which was special for my job, well, it would be challenging to impossible
It kind of begs the question, what is a tag for?
@IanHolstead maybe we need to market to get more non-software-industry users on TWP
@MattGiltaji can we make posters? :D
7:36 PM
I'm sure we'd have industry-specific tags for other industries if the need arises
its just that we're primarily from the software industry here
or the HR industry
Q: Community Promotion Ads - 2014

Grace NoteYou guys have gotten your own design! And with that, you now have the opportunity to setup Community Promotion Ads! We're still pretty fresh into 2014 so not much lost ground here. What are Community Promotion Ads? Community Promotion Ads are community-vetted advertisements that will show up on...

@Rachel hmm maybe I will try and find industry specific questions this evening
I would love to see a system which is long(ish) term sustainable rather than a temporary solution
I know things will change with time but still...
@IanHolstead rep up to where you can retag freely 2k, eventually retagging inline at 10k
@MattGiltaji (sigh... but its hard!)
7:51 PM
anyone know if ther's a shortcut to workplace.stackexchange.com?
(shorter url)
8:41 PM
I think I finally found a question where the tag would finally apply and still be on-topic...
Q: What is the professional thing to do with money I found at my new desk?

jmorcI moved desks and now I sit in a desk that previously belonged to a contractor. The desk had been vacant for a few months, since the previous employee was fired. While rummaging through the drawers, I found some money - about $50. Should I present this money to my manager, the contractor's f...

It's actually closed right now, but in the reopen queue. I edited it a bit to try and fix the "what should I do" wording that caused it to get closed, and it needs 1 more reopen vote
2 hours later…
10:36 PM
11:16 PM
A: Are Ethics part of our purview?

jmort253In many cases, the ethics questions seem to have more than one dimension to them. Take, for instance, the question Should I tell my employer I'm in school? This person seemed to be asking about this from an ethical perspective, but I answered it from a logistical and strategic perspective inste...


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