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12:10 AM
@acl I didn't, just got interrupted. My opinion is still that this doesn't need citing, but I did send a book that could be cited on this.
 
acl
@Szabolcs thanks!
 
 
2 hours later…
1:52 AM
I like to see this in a Wolfram Blog post and I already hear the first paragraph: "In the new Wolfram Language we implemented this new kind of thing or as we called it complexity speed-up... the harder your problems get, the faster Mathematica will solve them!" — halirutan 2 mins ago
This question is just too awesome to be ignored
9
Q: PositionIndex is horribly slow

Mr.WizardI do not know how best to formulate this as a question but the new PositionIndex is horribly slow. Using Szabolcs's clever GatherBy inversion we can implement our own function for comparison: myPosIdx[x_] := <|Thread[x[[ #[[All, 1]] ]] -> #]|> & @ GatherBy[Range @ Length @ x, x[[#]] &] Chec...

@rm-rf Do you have an idea whether we should wait for Tim Stone, who probably has much to do, or we ask just SE to update our code highlighting?
 
@halirutan Shog9 has retagged Szabolcs's meta request, so he has seen it. I'd probably wait for a while before bringing it up with them again.
 
@rm-rf Haven't seen this. OK.
@rm-rf You're on fractal flames now? What about the frogs?
 
@halirutan I miss the frogs... I tried to keep it green :/
Maybe I should go back to frogs
 
@rm-rf I got kind of used to it too.
@rm-rf Oh man, you just closed the wrong question. If he comes with his friends, they probably bring even bigger guns.
 
@halirutan Left him a comment. Hope he keeps the guns away ;)
 
2:20 AM
Hi @halirutan
Are you still around I'd love to discuss my gray background issue
 
@JeffDror Hi. Nice that this works out so fast.
@JeffDror OK, I have here the same system: Linux with Mathematica V9 and V10. Let us try some things.
 
Okay, great. Thanks!
 
@JeffDror First, if you create an empty Graphics, is the background still gray:
Export["test.pdf", Graphics[]]
 
No, in this case it is indeed white
 
@JeffDror What about Plot[Null, {x, 0, 1}]?
 
2:25 AM
Now this is really strange. I just realized that on Mathematica V10 the Sin plot isn't gray (and neither is the Plot[null,{x,0,1}]). However, a more complicated plot that I created is gray.
If you don't mind let me try to isolate the problem with the more complicated plot and post back in 5 minutes
Okay, I think I found a minimal example in V10. For some reason a simple plot exports fine. However, when I combine a plot with a legend I get a gray backround.
 
@JeffDror That is weird, because then the gray background must happen during the plot, because no matter what you plot, in the end it is just a Graphics object which is exported. That's why I tried an empty Graphics first. The export command doesn't see whether you plotted something or you typed it by hand.
 
Minimal example is:

ListPlot[Table[RandomReal[{0, 1}], {i, 1, 100}],
PlotLegends -> SwatchLegend[{Red, Blue}, {"a", "b"}]]
Export["~/test.pdf", %]
 
@JeffDror Can you give a very small example so that we can strip..
ok
@JeffDror And this is gray too?
ListPlot[{{0, 0}},
 PlotLegends -> SwatchLegend[{Red, Blue}, {"a", "b"}]]
 
Yes, I just check. it is.
Just so you can see what I mean
 
@JeffDror Can you post the output of the following to pastebin:
empty = ListPlot[{{0, 0}},
   PlotLegends -> SwatchLegend[{Red, Blue}, {"a", "b"}]];

AbsoluteOptions[empty] // Column
 
2:35 AM
Posted. It looks a lot worse in paste bin
 
@JeffDror Mark the cell and use Shift+Ctrl+C to copy code!
 
This is the screen shot in case you want to see it in nicer form
Ah, haha.
Thanks, hold on
There, I think I updated it.
 
@JeffDror Link?
 
Oh, haha. Sorry I'm new to pastebin
 
@JeffDror Mine and yours completely match so this is not the problem.
 
2:40 AM
Oh, that's a nice feature...
 
@JeffDror Can you show me InputForm[empty] on pastebin?
 
@JeffDror And Options[SwatchLegend] gives what?
 
@JeffDror And just to be sure: If you switch Format->Screen Environment to PrintOut or PrintOut gray, the empty graphics is still white, yes?
 
2:51 AM
Where should I make the switch? In Export["~/test.pdf", %, Format->PrintOut]?
 
@JeffDror No, in the menu bar. Just change it for the notebook you are looking at.
 
Hmm
Actually no
If I switch format->Printout the graphics is gray
 
@JeffDror What no? Your graphics is now gray in the notebook?
@JeffDror Nice. That's a lead.
OK, now we check the following:
 
Yes, it is. I do normally use a fancy stylesheet
I don't know if that's relevant.
 
@JeffDror you physics guys.. all of you use fancy coloring. But no, it's not relevant.
 
2:54 AM
Haha, I thougth i was the only one.
This is my printout format in case its of any interest
 
@JeffDror OK, I guess we can solve your problem. I only have to find this specific setting in the style-sheet. Give me a sec.
 
Great, thanks! This is my printout gray if that helps:
 
@JeffDror OK, ready? Go in the menu to Format -> Edit Stylesheet
 
Done
 
@JeffDror On the top you should find a link to Default.nb
@JeffDror And in Default.nb you find a link to Core.nb. Follow them to open Core.nb
 
3:05 AM
Hmm, I don't see it. I see a link to my stylesheet (pastelcolor)
which I changed to my default
 
@JeffDror Give me a sec
@JeffDror Then click on whatever you find at the top.
You will see that they all inherit from Default.
 
Ah, yes. Now I am in core.nb style definitions
 
@JeffDror Open Styles for Mathematica System-specific Elements
 
done
 
Open Default Box Styles
 
3:09 AM
done.
 
@JeffDror Now we need to check. First, open "Local defi for Style Graphics"
Click on Printout so that the cell-bracked is highlighted and press Ctrl+Shift+E
@JeffDror You should see something like this
 
I see a similar but more complicated output:
 
@JeffDror You have to open the Graphics triangle and only select the printout cell
 
Ah, okay
Here:
 
@JeffDror Look which cell is marked
 
3:13 AM
Cell[StyleData["Graphics", "Printout"],
ImageMargins->{{30, Inherited}, {Inherited, 0}},
EdgeThickness->Absolute[0.5],
Thickness->Absolute[0.5],
FontSize->9]
Identical to yours.
In particular I have,
 
@JeffDror Yep. Let us shorten this. First, can you check whether you have a local copy of this by running:
find . -name "*.nb"
in your local ~/.Mathematica directory.
 
I find the following:
./Paclets/Temporary/SearchResults_PrintOut_1653875.nb
./Paclets/Temporary/SearchResults_thread_1457051.nb
./Paclets/Repository/WelcomeScreenNews-8.27/WelcomeScreenNews.nb
./Paclets/Repository/WelcomeScreenNews-8.27/WelcomeScreenNews-zh.nb
./Paclets/Repository/WelcomeScreenNews-8.27/WelcomeScreenNews-ja.nb
./Paclets/Repository/WelcomeScreenSlides-9.0.14.2/WelcomeScreenSlides-zh.nb
./Paclets/Repository/WelcomeScreenSlides-9.0.14.2/WelcomeScreenSlides-ja.nb
./Paclets/Repository/WelcomeScreenSlides-9.0.14.2/WelcomeScreenSlides.nb
 
@JeffDror OK, I'm not sure but the first shouldn't be it. In this case, can you run the following
find . -name "*.nb" | xargs fgrep "GrayLevel[0.5"
@JeffDror in the directory $InstallationDirectory/SystemFiles/FrontEnd/StyleSheets
where it is the install dir of your Mathematica installation.
@JeffDror put the output to pastebin since it is rather long.
 
The Hemingway article time lapse if anyone is curious:
 
3:28 AM
@JeffDror OK, here I don't see a difference. Could you do the following: Open the Preferences and then the OptionsInspector in the last tab
@JeffDror Then try setting the PrintingStyleEnvironment to Printout Gray
(@JeffDror You said that with Printout Gray your graphics are not gray, right?)
 
Yeah, that's correct. For some reason it won't let me change PrintingStyleEnvironment.
Nevermind, I got it.
It worked!
It now printed properly!!!
 
@JeffDror Now we only have to find where this is actually set wrong.
 
@JeffDror Nothing is better than a good old debug session.
 
Haha
 
3:36 AM
@JeffDror Can you paste the complete content of your Core.nb to pastebin so that we can make a diff to my version?
@JeffDror You find it under Mathematica/10.0/SystemFiles/FrontEnd/StyleSheets.
 
I hope I did this right: pastebin.com/bYXzMGc4
 
@JeffDror No, something like (if you have xlip installed)
cat /usr/local/Wolfram/Mathematica/10.0/SystemFiles/FrontEnd/StyleSheets/Core.nb | xclip -i -selection clipboard
and then Ctrl+V into pastebin
 
Hmm, I just ran the command but there is no output
(I install xclip)
 
@JeffDror Just make Ctrl+V into pastebin :-)
It just copies the content of the file into the clipboard
 
Oh, haha. That's clevor...
 
3:47 AM
@JeffDror No difference at all. OK, I guess you have a workaround for now. I don't know whether setting the printing environment to Printout Gray introduces other things. Anywhere in the style system there seems to be this definition that your printed stuff is gray for legended plots.
Finding this without me sitting at your pc could become a bit tedious :-) I guess when I post this as answer, someone with the same problem might be able to find the source of the problem easily.
 
Great, thanks so much for your help! This problem has plagued me for over 2 years now
Who would have thought that changing the printout to gray would change the plot output to white...
 
@JeffDror Did you never ran a mathematica -clean in this time? It destroys your settings, but I really wonder if it solves the problem.
 
I don't think it will work since I've even changed computers and the problem remained
as well as formatted a few times
 
I don't mean to interrupt but you meant typing in a cell "mathematica -clean" and then evaluate it?
 
@JeffDror Really weird.
 
3:52 AM
Haha!
 
@seismatica No, start Mathematica from commandline with all settings reset.
 
and @JeffDror I think you pissed off the MMA god somewhere along the way lol
 
Haha, so it seems
 
@halirutan awesome! thank you so much between this and the Alt+[ tip from your other post.
 
3:54 AM
Well thanks again @halirutan. I can now get back to making proper plots. I am going to head out.
Goodnight!
 
@JeffDror No problem. Good night.
 
@rm-rf I miss your retarded frog!
 
4:32 AM
@acl I have finished the program and the performance is satisfied. However, I noticed while the matrix is copying back at the end of compile, it use 3 matrix memory. Do you know any method to circumvent it or is there a way to use pass by reference?
 
4:48 AM
@hwlau Btw, to say that you want a list of type integer, you can use
cf = Compile[{}, Module[{lst = Most[{0}]},
   Do[AppendTo[lst, i], {i, 1, 10}];
   lst
   ]]
 
@halirutan thanks, acl has taught me already all the basics
 
5:02 AM
I get kernel crashes while running long script and no idea what causes it.
The kernel Local has quit (exited) during the course of an evaluation.
It will be nice if there was a log message that explains the problem. But nothing.
This might be related to
11
Q: Kernel crash after idle in version 10.0

Yi WangIn version 10.0, when I leave the Mathematica section idle for some time (of order an hour), the kernel quit automatically. The syntax highlighting is gone and the variables that has defined before lost their values. There is no error message (tried to launch from terminal and still no error mess...

But in my case, I leave the kernel running a long computation and go away, then come back in 1 hr, finding it crashed.
 
Does anyone have a hint how to improve quality of output for BoundaryDiscretizeRegion[RegionDifference[Ball[], Ball[{0, 0, 1}]]]? I've tried everything obvious and not so obvious I can think of, and results stay essentially the same. That makes impossible to achieve results I would want to see on playing with constructive solids geometry.
 
5:19 AM
@halirutan Do you know how to parallelize the codes inside compile function?
The following simple one doesn't work.
f = Compile[{{NN, _Integer}},
Table[Sin[i + j], {i, NN}, {j, NN}]
, CompilationTarget -> "C", RuntimeOptions -> "Speed",
RuntimeAttributes -> {Listable}, Parallelization -> True,
RuntimeOptions -> "Speed"
];
 
@hwlau You don't parallelize the code inside Compile. This is not possible. What you probably mean is to paralleze several calls.
 
@halirutan Is it what parallelization means?
Can't the mathematica compile it with openmp, and with flag -fopenmp?
 
@hwlau In this very simple example of yours, the following would be threaded over all of your CPU's:
f = Compile[{{i, _Real, 1}}, Sin[i[[1]] + i[[2]]],
   CompilationTarget -> "C", RuntimeOptions -> "Speed",
   RuntimeAttributes -> {Listable}, Parallelization -> True,
   RuntimeOptions -> "Speed"];

f@Table[{i, j}, {i, 10}, {j, 10}];
See the difference! You specify your function for one data-point and it gets automatically threaded over all in the call f@Table....
This is similar to CUDA where you have one kernel which is called for many data-points.
 
Yes, I see. I need to test the performance and memory usage
 
@hwlau And yes, this is what is meant by parallelization if you specify the options to Compile like you did.
 
5:29 AM
Can the function f take more than one parameter in this case?
 
@hwlau yes.
 
@halirutan So can the first one be a list, and the 2nd be other variables
 
@hwlau yes
f = Compile[{{i, _Real, 1}, {a, _Real, 0}}, Sin[i[[1]] + i[[2]] + a],
   CompilationTarget -> "C", RuntimeOptions -> "Speed",
   RuntimeAttributes -> {Listable}, Parallelization -> True,
   RuntimeOptions -> "Speed"];

f[Table[{i, j}, {i, 10}, {j, 10}], .2]
@hwlau See that it threads the function automatically over the Table matrix while it uses 0.2 in all cases.
 
@Rojo @MichaelHale Even better solution: GeneralUtilities`ToAssociations@json :)
 
@rm-rf Sorry, what was that related to? I forgot
 
5:39 AM
@Rojo The Replace/Associations discussion yesterday
 
Turns json into associations?
Ahh
AHHH
Great :)
Sorry, just had a small argument with my former ex :D
 
Still upset with you over the world cup?
 
@Rojo Your ex since the game?
 
@rm-rf Yeah. She doesn't seem to like my frog killing
@halirutan Ex for a long time. But ex ex since the beginning of the world cup more or less
 
@halirutan She's now with Götze
@Rojo ex ex == not ex?
 
5:42 AM
@rm-rf Exactly
 
@rm-rf Who? Mario Götze?
(Remind me to fight @Rojo by changing my avatar t-shirt to German style :-)
 
@halirutan I always keep reading it as goatse, so I got used to appending an -L at the end :)
 
@halirutan Hurry, because my argentine flag is being drowned by my rojo
 
@Rojo (I didn't even watch the game yesterday. Saw in the Battlefield chat window that we won :-)
 
@halirutan It was a nice game, even thought the score doesn't show. Congrats
It deserved more goals
 
5:45 AM
@Rojo I heard today that Argentina played very well.
 
@halirutan It was quite even, perhaps Germany deserved it sliiiightly more. But the fitness was the biggest difference
We missed a couple of chances, the post saved us once
The referee should have shown a red card to an argentine dude but didn't
 
@Rojo I thought you should be better in this climate, no?
 
@Rojo and Higuain loved being offside
 
@rm-rf Yes, but thanks to that he got a clear chance he didn't expect, when the german headed it backwards to him,
Higuain was part of the most debatable play
I think it was penalty for argentina. Clearly it was anything but what the referee decided. Daamn, my English soccer vocabulary sucks
 
@Rojo You mean when Neuer went all street-fighter combo kick on him?
 
5:49 AM
Found a mail from inbox sent last week: "Mathematica 10 is now available, and we would like to provide this upgrade to you free of charge."
 
@rm-rf Right. I had posted an image here. Lets see
 
@Rojo Not sure about penalty... it wasn't deliberate and Neuer was clearly going for the ball
 
@rm-rf I don't think that changes the fact that you can't go knee up to the head. What if basketball players believed that was the natural way to jump for a ball?
In any case, what is hardly debatable is that it was not free kick for Germany. That was weird
 
That, yes.
 
 
5:53 AM
How does shit like this have ~30k viewers????
 
@rm-rf People like us, confused by the title
 
@Rojo @rm-rf Still, for me Neuer was the best and surprising player of Germany. He saved us a lot of times.
 
@halirutan Definately deserved the prize he got
 
And Messi got the Messi of the year award :)
 
5:57 AM
@rm-rf Unfair. He didn't even want it
Dumb argentinians will blame him for getting it. Poor messi
 
@halirutan thanks, do you know how it works for in place function of a matrix? the function map complex # to complex #
 
@Rojo hehe
 
Become the best of the world. What for? So people can hate you if you don't keep it up. Naah, Iḿ hapy being a nobody
A nickname in a chatroom
:)
 
@Rojo I personally find it really hard if a team relies on one specific player which is awesome, but still can have a bad day.
@hwlau you have to explain this a bit more. (although it's already 8:00 here and I haven't slept.)
 
@halirutan Will you have to "wake up" soon?
 
6:04 AM
This would be nice wrap-up... if it had links! wolfram.com/mathematica/new-in-10/for-existing-users
 
@halirutan Neuer was awesome.
@halirutan @Rojo I think Argentina plays a beautiful game, just lovely to watch. Without Di María though, it's too hard for Messi.
 
@MichaelE2 Yeah. There are of course many things to criticize, if one focuses on "how near we were". But overall I ḿ satisfied, it was a great cup, and the winner was clearly the best team overall throughout the cup
even having trouble with algeria, ghana, usa, or whatever
It was entertaining too. The semifinals only had "candidates" by pure chance
I only pity the stupid rivalry between argentina and brazil
 
@Rojo And it's not pretty, Brazil being the host. Tough for them to swallow, I suppose.
Good night, folks. I have to get up early and take my daughter up a mountain. :D
 
@MichaelE2 good luck there. Remember to take her down
 
@Rojo Hehe. Of course.
 
6:19 AM
@Rojo I have to get up at 13:00 lastest because I have a meeting in the afternoon.
 
7:12 AM
Argh. WRI has both Wolfram Programming Cloud and Wolfram Cloud, Wolfram Cloud supposedly (?) being the thing tied to Mathematica. And I see no option to upgrade Wolfram Cloud subscription (whatever that is).
They could be tad less confusing.
 
 
2 hours later…
acl
9:31 AM
@hwlau Don't know off hand, I would need to check (and haven't enough time right now I'm afraid)
 
acl
9:49 AM
@rm-rf they wrote a comment they'd add the data, then removed the comment and didn't add data! haha
 
10:06 AM
This example works: Extract[lis, {{0}, {3 ;; 5}, {7 ;; 8}}] but Extract[lis, {{3 ;; 5}, {7 ;; 8}}] doesn't.
Where lis = Range[10] or Range[100] or whatever. This doesn't feel intuitive to me.
I mean the lists of parts are supposed to be separate, how come {0} affects whether the other rules work or not?
 
@Pickett Extract nothing is supposed to happen there I think. You can crash the kernel with bad syntax there:
Extract[1, {{}, All}] (*crashes kernel*)
This also used to print a crazy message in 9
like: please report this ASAP
 
@JacobAkkerboom What do you mean "extract nothing is supposed to happen"?
I mean, isn't it supposed to extract {3;;5},{7;;8}?
 
@Pickett well, I just think that maybe Extract works by calling Part (or some C function corresponding to Part) and that it is totally unintentional that Extract can work with Span in the first place
By the way it now also works with Association :P
Last@Extract[{Association["cow" -> 2]}, {{}, {1, "cow"}}]
2 (*output*)
 
@JacobAkkerboom I thought Span would be supported in V10, I guess I remembered wrong. Now I don't think I'll report it, since it's undocumented. Thanks for your help.
Nice
 
@Pickett I've reported it before. At least it doesn't print the crazy message anymore :)
 
10:17 AM
OK, slight improvement :)
 
 
2 hours later…
12:06 PM
@rm-rf Good find! I was half expecting v10 Import to do that automatically, but from what I've read here they are still smoothing the edges of Association/Dataset.
 
 
 
2 hours later…
2:26 PM
posted on July 15, 2014 by Wolfram Blog

Data is, by its very nature, an evolving world of consumption and distribution. Conrad Wolfram recently spoke at TEDxHousesofParliament, giving a 15-minute talk about the evolution of data and how current and forthcoming technologies will continue to play a role.

 
2:38 PM
Will be using fewer semicolons in Mathematica 10. Output forms that I always suppressed in previous version of Mathematica now present nifty little pods containing juicy information.
Note there is even a thumb-nail plot
 
3:13 PM
@m_goldberg That thumbnail plot turned out to be much more useful that I would have expected.
 
@Szabolcs. There are quite of few functions that have received this treatment. It would be nice to have a list of them. Don't know how to generate one though. Do you any ideas.
 
@m_goldberg The only specially formatted object I found that didn't receive this treatment was FittedModel. All the rest that didn't display their full contents look like this now.
 
3:30 PM
@Szabolcs. I think it's going end up near the top of the list of best new features in V10
 
@m_goldberg From the top of my head, SparseArray, Graph (with no layout), Dispatch, CompiledFunction, LibraryFunction, LinkObject, OutputStream, InputStream, all colours (RGBColor, etc.), TimeSeries, TemporalData, ...
 
@Szabolcs. BSplineFunction, BezierFunction, etc., too.
@Szabolcs. Do you think that eventually information will become available to let users produce output forms like these?
 
@m_goldberg Probably not officially ... but somebody is going to spelunk it anyway :-) It has always been possible to create things like this, with Format, MakeBoxes, etc. One has to be very careful though not to let the formatting function evaluate anything in the expression that shouldn't be evaluated. DateObject's formatting had some bugs which did this in the betas. (It's fixed in 10.0 final.)
 
fff /: MakeBoxes[fff, StandardForm] :=
BoxForm`ArrangeSummaryBox[fff, f,
Style["\[FreakedSmiley]",
35], {BoxForm`MakeSummaryItem[{"Message: ", ToString[f]},
StandardForm],
BoxForm`MakeSummaryItem[{"Tag: ", tag}, StandardForm]}, {1, 2},
StandardForm]
More off the top of my head: ClassifierFunction, PredictorFunction, NearestFunction, RegionNearestFunction, RegionDistanceFunction, LinearSolveFunction, LiftingFilterData, ContinuousWaveletData, DiscreteWaveletData, ParametricFunction, LinkObject
 
3:48 PM
@RiemannZeta. Very interesting. I like the freaky smiley. Especially as evaluating fff really freaks out the predictive interface.
 
Oh and RegionMemberFunction
 
Got to break for lunch. Bye now.
 
I hope more are made in the future. For example ShortestPathFunction should use this new formatting IMO.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:25 PM
@m_goldberg take a look here:
(I don't know what exactly to make of it either, but the list seems to be there)
 
5:41 PM
Hmmh... how to take uniform samples from a region, v10-style? Specifically, one with a higher-dimensional embedding.
This is not uniform:
Point[{x, y, z}] /.
FindInstance[
RegionMember[
RegionIntersection[Sphere[3],
ImplicitRegion[x + y + z == 0, {x, y, z}]], {x, y, z}], {x, y, z}, Reals, 1000] // RegionPlot3D
Hmmh, that was awkwardly expressed. But the question remains...
 
acl
6:03 PM
@mfvonh a law student?!
 
mmhmm :(
@acl I hate it
 
@acl That caught my eye too, but I didn't ask about it yet :-)
 
acl
You hate it and appear to enjoy programming. So...
(actually don't be an idiot, if I could go back I'd have studied medicine or law, not physics)
 
We also have a law professor here: law.uh.edu/faculty/main.asp?PID=6
 
@mfvonh How does this work in the US? Do you have to have an undergrad degree before you can go to law school?
 
6:05 PM
@Szabolcs Yes. It's a typical 4 year undergrad degree then 3 years for law school.
 
@mfvonh What did you study in your undergrad?
 
@Szabolcs Econometrics. I wanted to do a PhD in econ, but I worked in econ consulting for a couple of years and really liked it. I specifically studied industrial organization / competition policy, and decided to go to law school with the idea of being an antitrust consultant.
 
Econometrics -- now I see where Mma comes in.
 
Actually I just learned MMA in law school, strangely.
I used to use SAS and Python
I have become much more interested in informatics lately
 
hi all
 
acl
6:08 PM
@mfvonh bad timing, no?
although with a bsc already I guess you're more flexible than a law student in eg the UK
 
@acl Well the interest was in response to my experience in law school. Legal information management is incredibly archaic, and particularly in the US a very real consequence of that is shutting many people out because they can't access basic information about the law. Which in theory should be public.
 
acl
@mfvonh When you say basic information, what sort of thing are you referring to?
 
@acl So I have been working on digitizing legal information. I work on some academic projects and am moving that direction professionally.
 
acl
@mfvonh I've always found organizing large amounts of data very interesting, actually
 
@acl "What does the prosecution have to prove to convict me of using a firearm while robbing a business?"
 
acl
6:10 PM
@mfvonh I see, so extracting real information from the "data" so to speak
 
It's a simple piece of information but because most of that material is created by judges, it is buried in prose
@acl Yeah. It also works the other way: "does this judge sentence black defendants more severely than white defendants?"
(The answer is usually yes)
 
acl
@mfvonh yes that sounds very interesting
 
I guess you already know the first Hippocratic oath statement "

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art; and that by my teaching, I will impart a knowledge of this art to my own sons, and to my teacher's sons, and to disciples bound by an indenture and oath according to the medical laws, and no others."
@mfvonh Sorry the prev msg was answering your " but because most of that material is created by judges, it is buried in prose" comment
 
@belisarius Hah that is very true.
I actually gave a talk at school about how the law has a lot to learn from medical information management
I basically got booed off stage
It's just arrogance at this point
The armies of (sociological) rationalization are at the gates :)
@acl So anyway I ended up learning Mathematica because it is pretty much unparalleled when it comes to representing and manipulating arbitrary information symbolically
 
@mfvonh Medical info management is sponsored by the labs. Lots and lots of money there. The law works for corporations but it is (still) not a part of them
 
6:22 PM
If anyone has experience with the new TransformedRegion function would you please look at this? It's a toy solution to this question. If you evaluate it at t=0 it should give a disk. Instead it gives half a disk.
 
@belisarius I would say that legal information management is poor on purpose. Lawyers' jobs are not actually that complicated; the most complex part is searching for information to make sure someone doesn't sideswipe you with something by surprise. This sounds bad, but it's actually good for lawyers (and judges) because it gives them way more room to hedge and argue about the meaning of this comma or that footnote. In the end legal services are more expensive and lawyers get more prestige.
At this point it would be considerably less expensive to manage legal information using standardized forms, etc. as is prevalent in medicine. Much of that is driven by regulation, or by major market players like insurance companies. The equivalent of that in the law is the court system. They can literally make arbitrary rules about whatever they want -- including what color paper you print things on.
 
"prevalent in medicine" depends on when and where. MDs opposition is very strong
I guess the "Common Law" is much worse in that aspect than the Civil Law
 
@belisarius Oh yes I meant specifically in the US. Europe in particular is way ahead of us in this respect.
And yes MDs oppose standardization for the same reason lawyers do. They think of their profession as an art and to diminish it through standard processes and forms and computers and all that threatens their prestige and income. Of course there are also legitimate complaints about hampering needed flexibility in medical choices, but at least here the conversation has not even made it to the point where we are actually discussing those types of issues on the merits.
 
6:43 PM
@mfvonh "Justice is like a snake, only bites the barefoot"
 
lol
Very true
But computers will conquer it! :)
 
I don't like monks,but this one is another thing
 
@belisarius I can get over the monk part :) This part is admirable: "... and spoke out against poverty, social injustice, assassinations and torture."
 
@mfvonh He came from a rich and rightist family. After being elected bishop he "awakened" and turned (somewhat) left, defending the rights of the poor in El Salvador. The poor in El Salvador are 99% of the people
 
@belisarius Latin America is the last place where the Catholic church is still inspiring.
It was about time they got a pope.
they/you :)
 
6:58 PM
@mfvonh Nah, they are being eaten piece by piece by "new" christian sects. They still have a lot of money and political power though
no, not me:)
 
haha
honorary You :P
 
God forbids! :D
 
The Church has an ungodly amount of money lol
 
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