English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

22:16

Nighty night!

@Fallen I went to bed at 4 yesterday, aren't you proud?

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Woo!

Cerberus

And I plan to go even earlier today! I sort of followed your semi-tip of postponing my real "night" until it became a normal bed time. And naps in between.

And you?

Did you just wake up?

aedia λ

Hello!

Cerberus

Hey!!

How is your lambda?

aedia λ

I am back from the beach tries to shake sand out of mane ...It was awesome!

FallenAngelEyes

22:20

@Cerberus Haha no, just got home. We spent the day playing boardgames at our friend's house.

We meet up every 2 weeks.

aedia λ

@Cerberus I am tired and happy!

Hi @fallen!

Cerberus

Excellent! And tanned?

aedia λ

A little tan, a little burnt.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Ah game nights/days are fun.

@aediaλ The sun makes you a wonderfully deep purple.

FallenAngelEyes

They'd been on vacation for a couple months though and just came back 3 days ago, so we stayed late to help them with jetlag.

Cerberus

22:22

Haha.

Help them.

FallenAngelEyes

Well, help them get over it, haha. Kept them awake.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Aw, thanks.

Bogdan Lataianu

@Jason Arguing about a subject does not mean necessarily a war.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes A noble task that you can be trusted with.

aedia λ

I would show y'all the beach but I still have to get the photos off my camera.

FallenAngelEyes

22:24

Hehe.

Cerberus

By the way, I saw a question come by "what do you call a gay transsexual woman" or something like that. Seemed very complicated.

What beach did you go to?

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus A lesbian

Cerberus

Haha. Well, you answer it.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Cape Cod, MA! Grace's state, I think. My family tries to go every year.

Cerberus

I think that's a popular holiday destination? Even I seems to have heard of it.

aedia λ

22:26

It was a long drive for us, though. Shorter for my family who live closer.

Jez

interesting answers to my question about 'done' replacing 'did'.

Cerberus

As long as you have fun.

Oh?

Jez

so, apparently I'm not mad to think that the guy at my work saying he 'done' stuff just has a rather stupid speech style

i was thinking it may have been creeping into standard usage

aedia λ

@Cerberus It's one of the awesomest places ever! This time we were far out on the Cape, on the bay side, but I also went to the ocean beaches some.

Jez

you were in awe

FallenAngelEyes

22:29

@Cerberus Can't, I don't have more than 10 rep on this site

aedia λ

@Jez Mmhmm :)

Cerberus

@Jez I should hope not!

Jez

@Cerberus I have to put up with it every day though

Cerberus

@aediaλ Sounds idyllic!

Jez

"you done that project didn't you?" "I think I done that" "he done it yesterday"

Cerberus

22:30

@FallenAngelEyes Post an answer anywhere and I'll up-vote it, then you shall have 10 reps!

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus That's cheating! :P

Cerberus

@Jez Isn't it just that they swallow "have"?

@FallenAngelEyes Nah as long as it's an OK answer!

Jez

@Cerberus I don't think so. "I did it" is more appropriate than "I have done it" in these contexts

Cerberus

@Jez Like which?

Jez

"I have done it yesterday" isn't right either

"There's an image there" ... "I think I have done that"

it works, but it's more natural to say "I think I did that"

Cerberus

22:32

Hmm that sounds odd indeed, the yesterday one.

Jez

"have done" gives the connotation that it wasn't necessarily recent

Cerberus

I'm not sure I understand the image situation.

Jez

I'm pretty sure he's just replacing 'did' with 'done'... a strange habit

Cerberus

Could be.

Jez

@Cerberus well, maybe take a coding bug instead then

"This isn't compiling" ... "I think I have done something to break it"

really you want to say "I did something to break it", as you did it recently

Cerberus

22:33

You should be glad you don't speak Dutch, or you'd be suffering even more atrocities.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Most of the questions here are answered much better than I can answer. :/

Jez

but the one thing you certainly don't want to say is "I done something" ;-)

Cerberus

@Jez But if you mean "I have broken it and that's why it is broken now", then the present perfect doesn't sound so strange?

@FallenAngelEyes Search for "gender" and I'm sure you'll find something, hehe.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Ik had het gisteren moeten doen enz.?

Jez

@Cerberus in this context we're really talking about something done recently that has resulted in breakage

Cerberus

22:35

@FallenAngelEyes Ah, yes, that is an interesting phenomenon, past perfect instead of present perfect. Very annoying, that one.

Jez

I'd say "did" is more natural than "have done" because it feels more like it's describing something recent

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Not many people notice that!

Though perhaps that example isn't really bad.

@Jez Perhaps you're right.

Jez

Mind you, this is nothing compared to football commentary. That has its own grammar. lol.

There, it is very common to use the past participle for some reason.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes I was thinking of "ja, we waren gisteren naar het strand gegaan, heel leuk. En toen waren we naar een restaurant gegaan.".

Jez

"He's run up to the goal, he's put in a great pass, and his teammate's scored a great goal."

Cerberus

22:37

@Jez Ugh don't even mention sports commentaries! They suck in Dutch too.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Ah gotcha

Jez

@Cerberus yeah but the commentators probably don't speak that way when describing the past tense in normal speech. I think it's a stylistic thing.

aedia λ

@Jez Here in DC, I hear people say they "done" things where I would say "did" and it makes sense in context, but I can't come up with examples that sound right, since it doesn't occur naturally in my idiolect :( I think it occurs when it's like, something that's actually done-completed-ish.

Jez

it's become 'the way' of describing football

Cerberus

@Jez Could be... but no doubt their language sucks pretty badly in regular speech too!

Jez

22:38

@aedia not an act of somebody doing something?

@Cerberus perhaps

@Cerberus funny to hear the various accents on Gilette Soccer Saturday

in Scottish, "gone to" becomes "gon-eey"

etc.

Cerberus

@Jez Dutch football players always say "you feel angry and you don't know what to do", when they mean "I".

Hmm by Scottish is a tad rusty.

Jez

@Cerberus sounds like English

aedia λ

@Jez I think it's like, "You done your homework?" "Yeah, I done my homework."

Cerberus

@Jez Really, do they do that too?

Jez

@aedia That just looks like they're dropping 'have'

Cerberus

22:40

Oh dear, did that unicorn just moo? Too bad I couldn't understand her.

Jez

@Cerberus Well, "you do" is used interchangeably in English with "one does"

as in, one does (in general)

Cerberus

@Jez So it is in Dutch.

Jez

and one does (in general) can describe yourself

aedia λ

@Jez But I wouldn't say "I've done my homework", like, ever. I'd say, "Did you do your homework?" "Yeah, I did my homework."

Jez

@aedia really? I might say either.

Cerberus

22:42

@Jez But it should be used in moderation. And not when telling a story about something I did in the past; only when you're legitimately emphasising that it would be the same for everyone.

I heard that "did" is more American.

Jez

@Cerberus the other style used in sports commentary, even lazier than using the perfect all over the place, is simply to speak in the present tense :-)

that's very common. "He shakes off two defenders, he hits the ball, and it goes wide of the net"

I suppose it's a style of speech used when somebody is 'replaying' an incident as if it's happening live

a verbal replay

aedia λ

I seldom say I "have done" anything, unless talking about something I did some time in the past: "oh, yeah, actually, I have done the dishes once, it was just a long time ago."

Bogdan Lataianu

@JasperLoy sorry that I bother you but there is a story about a guy who called 911 saying "somebody fell in ice" and the operator understood "on ice". The rescuers were looking in other places so the story ended tragically. The morale: some English problems are serious

Jez

yep, 'did' probably is more American. as is 'getting food', lol. that always cracks me up.

aedia λ

Getting food?

Jez

22:45

for some reason, when I hear "can I 'get' x..." it sounds like somebody is almost embarrassed to ask for it genuinely

aedia λ

Ohhhh

Jez

So if I'm asking for a porn magazine or something I might avert my gaze and say "can I get that mag?"

Cerberus

@Jez Oh, yeah, that's extremely common here. It's also in newspapers all the time, when describing past events: "Bush goes to Yale in 1974 and meets John-John there. They like football so they decide to join the team."

Jez

in the US, you guys always seem to be embarrassed to ask for food. ;-) "Can I ... get some pizza"

Can you get it? I dunno, you try. Try and steal it. lol

aedia λ

@Jez Yeah, I say that. I can't cure myself. "Can I get the bbq special?"

Jez

22:46

logically, though, it's no less sensible than "can I have". just sounds weird in my dialect.

Cerberus

How about "can I get you anything?"?

Jez

Yeah.

aedia λ

I don't notice it, but I do hate "are you still working on that?"

Jez

Also, particularly when paired with "I want", it sounds very trite.

"I wanna get some food"

no politeness in there whatsoever

I suspect that in many US dialects, "I wanna get" is actually considered polite?

here, it wouldn't be

Cerberus

@aediaλ Oh, really? Instead of what?

Jez

22:48

no, not trite.. wrong word

Cerberus

Casual?

Jez

I meant.... curt

FallenAngelEyes

@Jez Saying "I'm going to get lunch" or something is very common even in business environments. It wouldn't be considered "low class" or anything.

aedia λ

@Jez I don't know if it'd be considered polite so much as the "I wanna" just wouldn't be noticed. Or, it's more like a slurred-together "I'm[g]onna get", like "I'll have" or "I will", but the one that's correct for the social register.

Jez

So Americans tend to walk up to the counter and say "I wanna get the special of the day, and some fries, etc."

and in BrE that sounds slightly rude :-)

aedia λ

22:50

@Cerberus From waitstaff instead of them actually just noticing whether you're finished eating!

Jez

@aedia Even those roots are somewhat impolite. "I would like", the subjunctive tense, or something beginning "Please", are the only really polite ways to ask in BrE

Cerberus

@aediaλ What! Do they seriously say that? Outrageous, for several reasons!

aedia λ

Or asking if you need anything else, or some other polite phrase, that a)doesn't make it sound like your eating is work and b)doesn't remind you that their job is actually to turn tables as fast as possible.

Cerberus

@Jez How about "could you give me another napkin?"?

Jez

@aedia I know Americans are workaholics but you 'work on' your food? haha

aedia λ

22:53

@Cerberus Really nice places they don't, but even medium-nice places with otherwise decent waitstaff they sometimes have certain habits like that that drive me nuts.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Exactly! And it sounds almost vulgar, as if they were referring to your chewing.

Jez

@Cerberus Yes, and I'd throw "please" at the end for good measure

If a waiter asked whether I was still working on my food, I'd have to lol

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus It's mostly to do with the difference in culture of eating out in North America. For most in the NA, eating out is about convenience and speed.

Cerberus

In Holland, they keep asking whether you like it. Extremely annoying. Just let me eat and don't bother me! If you want to see whether we need anything, just walk by slowly and smile in our direction, walk along if we don't call you.

@Jez I'd ask him what he meant.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus that drives me a little nuts as well

Cerberus

22:55

@FallenAngelEyes Well, but "working"?

aedia λ

@Cerberus I've settled for being happy if they only ask me once how I like it.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I've actually never thought that sounded odd

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Yeah it is so extremely contrary to etiquette! They think it is polite. Ugh.

@aediaλ You you have this problem too over there?

Jez

@Cerberus Actually it reminds me of the time me, my mum, and brother, went to New York and ate at Planet Hollywood. My mum politely asked whether there were any tables for 3 (I guess the traditional US way would be to say one WANTED a table for 3), and the waitress said "nah, only 2 and 4"

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Really? Brainwashed!

Jez

22:56

we began to walk away, but she was just joking :-)

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Hehe

aedia λ

@Cerberus Yes! They either stop by too much, or they are never available when you really need something important, like the table is missing a set of silverware or something.

Cerberus

@Jez Dear Lord. Perhaps she had just fallen off the stairs and broke her brains?

@Jez Oh, thank God!

@aediaλ Exactly!

But what is even more excruciating is when they insist on telling everybody exactly what they have been served before every course!

Hate it, hate it.

Jez

@Cerberus are you an anglophone living in Holland or a dutchophone (is that a word) who knows English?

Cerberus

The latter.

aedia λ

22:59

@Cerberus I think it is a failure of global waiter education. They do that here too and often can't remember whose is whose.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Yeah I think they are taught to do that on a large scale. But the really, really good restaurants usually won't do that.

Actually I suppose they normally only name every single ingredient of those little amuses that you didn't order.

But even then! Just say it in two words.

Jez

I quite like the newfound phenomenon of waiters asking whether you're ok with your meal

often I use it as an opportunity to ask for another drink or somesuch

aedia λ

@Cerberus When they tell you the specials, do they give it in excruciating detail, even though they should be able to clearly see that no one cares what is in the sauce of the fourth thing down the list they have so proudly memorized? And then can't remember that you want water?

Jez

it needs to be done in moderation

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ Water's not free here. :(

So they definitely remember to give you that €2 tiny bottle of Spa Blauw.

aedia λ

23:03

@FallenAngelEyes Horrors! Really?

Cerberus

@Jez Ugh then you take those waiters! I hate it. Let them just slowly walk by smiling, and walk along if we don't hail them.

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ Really. I don't think I've ever been anywhere in the Netherlands that had free water.

Always bottled. No free refills either.

Jez

►

Penn & Teller charged people for expensive bottled waters that all came from the same tap :-P

aedia λ

I remember that one!

Cerberus

@aediaλ Yes they do that! Though I must say the fault there lies not with the sauce but with the fact that they don't have their special on a blackboard somewhere.

FallenAngelEyes

23:05

@Jez Haha awesome.

I never paid for bottled water in a restaurant before I came here.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes I always explicitly ask for "a glass of water": then they can't give you a Spa.

That's the trick.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus At least in the Netherlands, all your tap water is drinkable.

Jez

@FallenAngelEyes curious. Here, plain water is almost always free.

FallenAngelEyes

City water in the US can be reeeeeally hit or miss.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Must you still pay for a glass of water? Because... that would be ridiculous, right?

Cerberus

23:06

Or "a pitcher of water" ("kan water" in Dutch).

@FallenAngelEyes That is true.

FallenAngelEyes

City water can be way too chlorinated and well water can taste overwhelmingly of sulfur.

Jez

Hah, well water. savages.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Out of habit, I still often ask my b/f if the water somewhere is drinkable and he looks at me funny.

Cerberus

Hehe.

aedia λ

@FallenAngelEyes I'm not too picky, here. City water is better regulated than bottled water in the US so I'm at least sure it's safe ;)

Cerberus

23:07

@FallenAngelEyes Poor American barbarian!

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ Ah, where are you from?

aedia λ

The rural Northeast, but we had village water.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus When I was in university, the water there was awful. Completely undrinkable.

aedia λ

My friends with wells had really sulfur-y water and always would have filter pitchers in the fridge for drinking, though.

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ Ah, I grew up on fresh lake water in upstate NY. :) I got spoiled by it.

I can't stand sulfur water at all.

Gotta love Brita.

aedia λ

23:10

@FallenAngelEyes I still prefer my hometown water to anything else, even though the mineral content is insanely high. My mom is always happy to replace her showerheads and coffeepot because they clog up from mineral deposits (and cleaning with vinegar, etc. only does so much).

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ Yeah, I miss the lake water from where I grew up too. :(

aedia λ

I didn't like my water that much when I first moved down here but it's ok. To me, all the water in the DC area I've tried kind of tastes the same. A little bit too chlorinated.

@FallenAngelEyes I wish I lived by a nice lake, or river, or ocean. I miss the beach already.

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ Same. :( Honestly, I don't like living far from the water at all. Our apartment overlooks a tiny canal that runs along our street, but it's not the same.

Living below sea level doesn't count. :P

Jez

yeah in the southeast of England we have hard water

loads of limescale buildup

but i guess we get used to downing the stuff because we just tend to drink tap water

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus My brain is running out of my ears from playing board games all day, so I can't think of a question I could ask here that hasn't been asked. >_<

Cerberus

23:20

@Jez Very nice. Some people are just so crazy.

@FallenAngelEyes I know, asking questions is hard. But answering is easier...

@aediaλ Hmm chlorinated doesn't sound great. They have that too in areas of France and Italy.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I hold myself to a high standard of answering. I don't like just throwing more answers on a question when it either already has an accepted answer or has answers I think are thorough enough that I can't add anything helpful.

Cerberus

Yeah I understand.

Bogdan Lataianu

a wrong perception can be created that there is privacy on SE . However, there are scripts that show who favourited your question, who voted you down etc..

FallenAngelEyes

It's why I find it difficult to participate here. I don't have enough expertise to offer any helpful answers nor ask difficult questions, but my English level is high enough that I don't often need to ask about something like definition clarification.

Cerberus

@BogdanLataianu Oh, really? But how do they access that information?

@FallenAngelEyes Don't worry, you don't have to.

If you happen to browse the questions and find an interesting one that lacks a definitive answer, do your thing.

FallenAngelEyes

23:27

@Cerberus I want to! But you guys are too smart. :P

aedia λ

@FallenAngelEyes You can search open ones that don't have accepted answers by putting hasaccepted:0 closed:0 in the search box :) ... I don't find the "Unanswered" tab very helpful 'cause it only shows the ones with no answers or no upvoted answers, but sometimes the existing answers aren't very good, still.

Cerberus

Meh.

What she said.

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ Oooh, okay. I went to the "Unanswered" tab as well and was surprised to see nothing there.

Bogdan Lataianu

@Cerberus see this .

aedia λ

Well, if we're talking about favorites, everyone's favorites are available from their profile, so that's no secret. Just without a query or script, would be hard to track down everyone who's favorited a question of yours.

FallenAngelEyes

23:29

@BogdanLataianu That's not downvotes though... I thought downvotes were completely anonymous?

Bogdan Lataianu

right sorry I assumed you can make all kinds of such scripts

Cerberus

@BogdanLataianu Interesting script. But what your favourites are is publicly available; how about what you have upvoted?

Jinx!

Bogdan Lataianu

but when one day one guy asked me why I flagged his question-I wonder how he knew it

Cerberus

He probably just guessed.

FallenAngelEyes

@BogdanLataianu Was he a 10k user?

Cerberus

23:33

Can you see flags on your own posts as a 10k user?

I have no idea.

FallenAngelEyes

Hm, I'm not sure.

Bogdan Lataianu

@FallenAngelEyes i will try to find him, he has a gravatar withthe image of an upvote

aedia λ

@Cerberus I think someone said yes, but I don't remember when, so I have no hope of finding it in the transcript.

FallenAngelEyes

Oh, @Cerberus, I learned a new Dutch word today: Ontginnen.

aedia λ

For some reason I remember discussion that the standard flag reasons were visible to all 10k+ users and the custom text ones, only to mods. But, I could very well remember wrong. I've got vacation brain and now I've been consorting with @Cerberus, he of excellent memory ;)

Cerberus

23:38

@aediaλ OK.

@FallenAngelEyes Excellent!

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ I've got "I've been playing strategic board games all day" brain, so it is also melted.

Cerberus

I have no idea what that would be in English. "Reclaim" isn't quite the same, nor "cultivate".

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I was actually pondering that and wondering if it would be a good question, but figured it would be more appropriate for a Dutch site.

My b/f and our friend had trouble coming up with an equivalent as well.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Heh you caught it too? I really have no idea. And it isn't the kind of information I would remember, because eh...it isn't at the very top of my list of interesting things!

FallenAngelEyes

It came up in a game of Agricola, specifically the expansion "De Veenboeren." :)

Cerberus

23:40

Haha. That sounds exciting.

To be frank, I don't even know exactly what it means.

FallenAngelEyes

Most of the board games we play are German-style strategy, so the instructions and game are either in German or are translated Dutch versions.

Cerberus

I'd guess making uncultivated ready for cultivation, including drainage.

FallenAngelEyes

Google translate offered me "develop," which I think works-ish.

Cerberus

Yeah agricultural vocabulary probably isn't high on you rlist!

FallenAngelEyes

From what I understand of the word at least.

Haha, definitely not something that comes up every day.

Cerberus

23:42

Develop, yes, something like that.

But in my mind there is some drainage involved.

FallenAngelEyes

Develop, to make fertile...

Cerberus

Could be contingent.

aedia λ

@FallenAngelEyes I love German-style strategy games! I haven't tried Agricola yet, though.

Cerberus

ontginnen (overgankelijk werkwoord)
1
met betrekking tot gronden
reclaim
develop
cultiveren cultivate
2
met betrekking tot mijnen
exploit
3
(figuurlijk)
explore
develop
context
nieuw terrein ontginnen
open up / break / develop new ground

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ It's very good! I enjoy it a lot. I have no idea what any of the English names for cards are though, haha.

Yeah, my b/f mentioned the mining aspect as well.

Bogdan Lataianu

23:43

@Cerberus but he knew I flagged it even before the question was closed. He's "Louis Rhys" and not 10k

FallenAngelEyes

So in Civilization games, "Ik ontgin de heuvels waarop ik een mijn bouw"?

Cerberus

B) Eene zaak niet in haar geheel laten, maar integendeel haar losmaken, er eene sneê in geven, er eene opening in maken.
3. In toepassing op den grond; nagenoeg de eenige waarin ontginnen in Noord-Nederland nog wordt gebezigd.
a. De bovenste laag van een grond losmaken of wegnemen; in Zeeland b.v. als benaming voor het eerste omploegen van den akker na den oogst; dit ploegen gaat ondiep.
ᴁ— Ook in de veenderij.
Den veengrond, door middel van schuppen, van zyne groene weiden of beteelden grond te ontblooten; 't welk men noemt een Veen insteeken, of een Veen ontginnen, BERKHEY, N.H. 2, 55…

This is from the WNT and it sounds right.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus WNT?

Cerberus

gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/…

Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal.

The biggest dictionary in the world, they say, if you count the number of pages.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus It's because of all your little extra words, like "te"! :P

aedia λ

23:46

Woordenboek is a pretty word.

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ Haha, you think so?

@Cerberus This site is neat, thanks!

aedia λ

Nicer than "dictionary", isn't it?

FallenAngelEyes

@aediaλ "words book," I dunno...

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Hey you have "to".

@FallenAngelEyes Every word also has a link to the etymological dictionary, which is supposedly not publicly accessible. Look under "koppeling" at the top right of the article.

Wordbook?

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I've never quite understood why you add "te" though when "to" is already part of the verb definition.

like with the "om"/"te" pairing

Cerberus

23:51

In what kind of sentence?

FallenAngelEyes

"Ik gebruik een spons om de borden af te wassen"

Cerberus

Well, that "te" is the same as your "to". It is "om" that comes extra.

Cf. "in order to".

It's not entirely the same.

FallenAngelEyes

Hrm.

Man I'm way too tired to be thinking about this right now.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…