EL&U 2014 Election

12:22 AM

@medica I'm not a native speaker and I've been reluctant about answering questions in ELU. Even though I had my post-grad. training in the US, I didn't live there long enough to feel qualified as a really knowledgeable person. However, I came across some very easy questions and tried to answer them. I got immediately downvoted and the comments didn't sound as if I were welcome in that área. Don't you think there should be some guidelines concerning non-native speakers answering questions ?

medica

12:54 AM

Luis, would you be amenable to posting this highly relevant question in Election chat and let all of us address it? I think this is a great question.

OK.

@Luis First, Luis, please accept my deepest apologies for the feeling you have been made to feel.

Seth

@medica This.. is the election chat ;)

medica

It is unfortunately a common experience with newcomers, so please know that you're not alone, and that you're not imagining things.

Before I address it directly, I want to thank you for putting yourself in that vulnerable place and not only going for it, but having the courage to come to someone with the sad result.

You are welcome here.

Everyone is welcome here.

This, unlike other sites, is not a forum for discussion.

It's supposed to be an impersonal question and answer site, one where questions and answers are judged on their own merits without regard for the person asking it;

That is, it stands or falls on it's own merits, equal to every one elses contributions.

We don't differentiate based on Native tongue or proficiency lever with the language.

For that reason, sometimes your answers will not meet the standards of expectations of some on this site.

user116848

It is very funny when people write this ~~janitor~~ Moderator

medica

So, your first problem was how unwelcome you felt, and again I'm sorry.

user116848

lol

user116848

1:03 AM

:)

medica

But you will understand, I hope, that this was no reflection on you, but only on your answer.

Comments, too, are supposed to be friendly.

They are supposed to be helpful and meant to help you revise your answer if need be, or to learn what are good answers here.

That's all that comments are supposed to do.

So, if you had some unwelcoming comments, again, I apologize, it's not supposed to happen.

I'll look at all your posts and make sure to flag for moderator attention any comments that crossed the line.

But we have thousands of members and very little control over what they write. :(

You asked: "Don't you think there should be some guidelines concerning non-native speakers answering questions ?"

No.

I don't.

I think there should be help and guidance from the community on how to help you improve your answer, and to help you learn this site's preferences regarding answers, our suggestions.

user116848

Well I am a non native and I gave some good answers to questions

medica

Kindly kelp and guidance.

user116848

Although I ask questions too

medica

But to have one standard for Native speakers and another for foreign speakers would be to accept questions that were not up a quality expected of all answers here.

It is nothing personal. I hope you understand this.

Here's what I do propose:

Before you retreat (which I hope you will not do, as I have liked your participatio here, and I'm sure others will have also,

Please familiarize yourself with EL&U by taking, first, the tour,

here, and then read in the help center, the section on answers.

That will give you an idea on the types of questions which typically get upvoted here.

user116848

1:16 AM

@medica I have a question

medica

Also, if that seems too imtimidating, there is another site here, our sister site, {English Language Learners](ell.stackexchange.com); take their tour as well, and see if you might be more comfortable there.

@Arrowfar In a moment, please.:)

@Luis From what I remember, you would be fine at either site.

@Luis I've been doing all the "talking"; would you like to tell me what you think about what I've said?

@Luis Are you still here?

Luis

@medica Being a cardiologist, I'm pretty much used to following guidelines. I would find it easier if there were some, but as you said, moderators can do that job too, or even any other member who's been around very long.

medica

@Luis OK, I will repost your question so not only the moderator candidates are aware of the problem, but also that our current moderators are as well.

Yes.

You know, I believe, that I'm a doctor as well (Emergency and Family Medicine).

We are accostumed to having relatively clear guidelines (relatively) for the choices we make.

This is much more ambiguous.

Luis

I've seen there are currently 5 moderators. How many are we going to have after these 3 new have been elected ? 8 moderators ? Or are some of them going to leave the position ?

medica

If you do not find the help section actually helpful, we want to know that.

There will be 8 of us.

So there will be more eyes and more hands.

But as it is now, we rely on the users to do a lot of the moderation here.

That is the stack Exchange model.

It is unlikely to change, but there are some of us who definately believe this can be a friendlier and more welcoming place.

And in fact, are running for moderator on that very issue.

Luis

1:26 AM

That's good news. On the whole, I like the way the site works very much. It's only now and then that I come across something that may read as arrogance or vanity. But then again, written language isn't a good means of communication and very often we misunderstand someone's intentions.

medica

Exactly. Also, what is normal and common in one culture may come across very differently in another.

Luis

Sure, there is that aspect too.

medica

Here, there are English speakers from all over the world.

Some are brusque, some are very polite.

So there's that as well.

Luis

Yes, I've noticed that. The good thing is that the language is alive and I've learned a lot o new things I wouldn't find in books.

medica

@Luis That's great news. That is what makes us happiest.

And that is one of the strongest things we have going as a site: the living language. Idioms, meanings, all kinds of things that are in use now. The history and origin of words. So much to learn.

Luis

1:32 AM

I wish you good luck and, sincerely, I hope you get elected. You've been very active. One last thing before I go (I'm a few hours ahead of you) Why did you change your nickname from Susan to medica ?

medica

Ah, that is a rather personal choice I made. I wish I could tell you, but I can't. Rest assured, there was nothing duplicitous in the change. For several days, just to make sure there was continuity, I answered "a.k.a. Susan."

user116848

@medica How do I tell any specific person to come to chat here?

Luis

I see. Good luck again and good night.

medica

@Arrowfar this is election chat. If you have a question, you can ask it or you can ping the moderator candidates and leave them your question. If you have a general question, ping all of us.

@Luis Is there anything else I can do for you?

user116848

@medica How to ping all of you?

medica

1:36 AM

@Arrowfar :) @medica, @(name), @(name), @(name)... :-)

@Luis Buenos noches, y buena salud!

@AndrewLeach, @MrHen, @Matt Эллен, @Manhax, @Yoichi Oichi, @phenry, @oerkelens, @Fractured Retina. @luis asks: I'm not a native speaker and I've been reluctant about answering questions in ELU. Even though I had my post-grad. training in the US, I didn't live there long enough to feel qualified as a really knowledgeable person.

However, I came across some very easy questions and tried to answer them. I got immediately downvoted and the comments didn't sound as if I were welcome in that área. Don't you think there should be some guidelines concerning non-native speakers answering questions ?

tchrist

2:41 AM

0

Q: How curious are you? — or — Tallied ELU Asking Day Badges Proposal Results

How we fare in the new badge proposal In Asking days badges, there is a proposal to award to create a new trio of badges for asking questions. It revolves around the number of separate days that a user has a positive record of questions and asked good questions on that day. See the link for ...

tchrist

2:55 AM

0

A: Asking days badges

I ran the current criteria against the top 124 users on English Language & Users by reputation, and discovered that this would produce 2 golds, 20 silvers, and 75 bronzes. Here’s the table sorted on N, Reps as described in the original posting: Rank ID Name Re...

 Rank      ID Name                           Reps  N  Bronze   Silver     Gold
 ===================================================================================
   1.    3119 Yoichi Oishi ♢                21468 567 Curious Inquisitive Socratic
  15.    6006 MrHen ♢                       22264  44 Curious Inquisitive
  18.    8360 KitFox ♦                      18359  33 Curious Inquisitive
  28.     300 RegDwigнt ♦                   58211  23 Curious
  31.    3559 Matt Эллен ♢                  19454  21 Curious

Note how @YoichiOishi would be awarded the coveted Socratic gold badge.

Mari-Lou A

4:44 AM

@Mitch I like to clarify my statement "I really hope the downvotes were NOT cast by a single candidate" I did not mean to suggest the six/seven downvotes were cast by a single person. I know (after the first day) that it's one vote per person. I meant the consequent four downvotes, one on the "rankings" question and three downvotes on SEPARATE answers by SK. I did say to look at his profile.

If someone has understood and explained the misunderstanding to Mitch, thank you. If not, and there are people who really think I don't understand the system, then here is my explanation. Spelt (spelled) out.

Andrew Leach

6:26 AM

@medica I concur with your answers to @Luis. Ultimately all voting is subjective, and it's not possible to legislate for it. Some may pick up on non-native turns of phrase; only they can justify whether that makes an answer incorrect or "not useful".

In principle, there should not be separate guidance for non-native users of English, because that enshrines a two-tier system.

(removed duplicate post, just in case you're wondering what it was)

Such guidance as there is applies to everyone. There may be a case for it to be revisited/revised.

medica

6:52 AM

@tchrist has posted (with a link a to meta) on a topic which has been on the minds many of us many for a while: how do we improve the quality of questions? (And hopefully answers.) Is this a way to promote a more interesting and lively ELU?

While initially I was excited to read this, I do have some misgivings (detailed in this meta response). Ultimately, I’m concerned that this will weaken instead of strengthen ELU.

Badges for low-upvote answers might encourage a flurry of borderline questions as well as increase the resentment already common with down votes. Maybe we should try it. Maybe we should wait until we are more welcoming in general. I don't know. But because some don't visit meta, I'm posting this here for your consideration. Thanks.

Andrew Leach

I think it's only indirectly a moderation issue, as it highlights the need to vote down, close and delete poor questions. That should primarily be a community judgement (although I'm not averse to mods acting on egregious examples).

medica

@Andrew - If I interrupted you, I apologize. If this is about @tchrist's post, I agree it is not a moderation issue.

As much as I would welcome another gold badge (or several) for top question poster Yoichi Oishi. :)

Andrew Leach

7:30 AM

No; it was about question badges not being directly an issue of moderation. I guess there's no reason why they should be awardable more than once (get a gold badge and the calculations start again).

Matt Эллен

8:01 AM

@AndrewLeach I agree

Yoichi Oishi

8:19 AM

Mari-LouA. I read your uncomfortable down-vote experience. I also suffered obstinate and pathological down-votes from two users last year up to early this year. They down-voted almost every question I casted. When I complained and asked for highly possible regular down-voters to stop this coward actions in Meta last year, one user nonchalantly admitted that he actually down-voted almost every other questions of mine. At that time someone, (perhaps J.R. , but my memory is obscure who it was now) choke with surprise, and asked the admitted down-voter “Did you down-vote so many of Yoichi’s que…

@tchrist. I know Gold budge is more valuable than Silver and Copper. But I don't know what sub-categories, like curious, inquisitive. pundit, Socratic, notable, popular, publicist, etc. means. What is Socratic budge? Why is it "coveted."

Andrew Leach

8:42 AM

@YoichiOishi Moderators should certainly deal with serial downvoters who target particular users; but this needs the victim to raise the issue, if the automatic anti-vendetta correction stuff doesn't happen.

Sudhir

Hi

How to vote?

Matt Эллен

hi

Andrew Leach

@Sudhir Go to english.stackexchange.com/election?cb=1 -- if you have enough reputation (I think you have), you will get buttons against each candidate.

Sudhir

How much reputation is required to vote?

Matt Эллен

150

Andrew Leach

8:48 AM

I couldn't remember what the nomination/voting levels were.

Sudhir

So this voting is for ELL or ES?

Andrew Leach

For additional moderators for ELU.

Sudhir

@MattЭллен: Seen you after long time. I hope you'd be doing good.

Matt Эллен

I'm fine. Hope you're good too.

Sudhir

Ya. So we can vote more than one candidate?

Matt Эллен

8:51 AM

you vote for your 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice

there will be 3 new moderators by the end of the day

Sudhir

For each user can I cast vote?

Matt Эллен

you can only cast 3 votes in total. Your first choice represents the person you most want to be a moderator.

your second vote represents the person you want second most as moderator

your third vote is for the person you want third most

Sudhir

I don't have much idea about the persons who're electing the contest.

Only 2 people I know well.

Matt Эллен

There is a Q&A post that will tell you more about each one, if you have time to read it!

also, you don't have to cast all three votes. I think you should, but if you only see two candidates you think would be good moderators, then only cast two votes.

Sudhir

Thanks Matt!

Matt Эллен

9:00 AM

no probs

Sudhir

Interesting to see persons having high reputation points are not contesting the elections.

Andrew Leach

@Sudhir Um...

How high is "high"?

Sudhir

I meant top 5.

Andrew Leach

But actually, it's not really about rep. Moderation is about flags and Meta stuff. Some people are interested in that drudge work; others like answering questions; a few do both.

Matt Эллен

exactly

Sudhir

9:03 AM

Yeah! Well said.

@MattЭллен: Is there any limit(repo point) to contest the election?

Matt Эллен

you have to have at least 300 reputation to nominate yourself

Sudhir

Oh I see

Matt Эллен

but nominations are now closed.

Sudhir

I think the idea to combine ELL and ELU would be great.

Matt Эллен

I'm not so sure about that. I find it debatable either way

Sudhir

9:09 AM

I've caste my vote.

Matt Эллен

Some people like John Lawler argue well that separating the sites is an affectation, designed to make people at EL&U feel smart and that the idea is that we are here to help people, not split up questions based on how "simplistic" we feel they are.

Other people, like me most of the time, think that questions that show a desire for hard and fast rules and questions about how to teach English deserve their own site and that EL&U should be about exploration and deeper understanding of what English is and how it came to be.

they're both good arguements (IMO)

Sudhir

Yeah! We're to help people who lacks in grammar portion of English.

Even being a non native speaker of English, I've problem in English.

Matt Эллен

of course, this topic has little to do with moderation. it's very much a community decision.

Sudhir

I guess both are correct, though not sure.

Matt Эллен

@Sudhir OK, if you'd like help with English, I can answer your questions, but we should do it in the main room, so as not to run amok in the Election chat room :)

Sudhir

9:15 AM

ok sure

tchrist

1:07 PM

@YoichiOishi There is a proposal on MSE to create badges for asking good questions. There would be a bronze one called Curious, a silver one called Inquisitive, and a gold one called Socratic. It is a proposal only, and is inviting comments. I ran the criteria against the public database, which does not include deleted questions, so my results may be a bit high, but I’m sure you are our #1 question-asker. That’s what your N=567 meant.

Transcript for