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00:00
A trade ad, in other words.
Not corsets. Underpants?
I don't know much about men's foundation garments.
@KitFox Yup.
Hahaha
@Robusto That's short stories?
Children's underwear, to be precise.
@KitFox Yup. A whole book of short stories.
They're all different, yet there is an arc to them.
00:02
I didn't realize. That's Joyce?
@TRiG Oh, like "to get fresh with".
I was wondering.
@KitFox Yes.
If you haven't read them, that's where I'd start.
OK.
@KitFox It actually does make some kind of sense, if you squint a bit.
Joyce is difficult?
Not Dubliners. Very easy.
00:03
I don't know if that matters, but I'm wondering.
It's almost a primer on how to write good short stories.
@Robusto I've never read Dubliners (I really really should), but I've heard some of the stories read on the radio. Absolutely beautiful. The only Joyce I've read is Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, too long ago. I should reread that one.
They start off from a child's point of view and move through young adulthood and so forth.
I've decided to start writing short fiction and trying to get some published.
With the intent of working my way up.
They're amazing. That a young man could produce these stories as his first prose opus. And then to have an old lady who objected to his presentation buy up the entire first edition and have them publicly burned.
@KitFox Good luck with that. Doing a lot of reading first is going at that task the right way.
Ah, I'm giving you wrong information about the burning. Here's what happened:
> Joyce offered to pay the printing costs himself if the sheets were turned over to him and he was allowed to complete the job elsewhere and distribute the book, but when Joyce arrived at the printers they refused to surrender the sheets. They burned them the next day. Joyce managed to save one copy, which he obtained "by ruse".
00:10
Wow, I had no idea.
But I also didn't realize it was a book of short stories or I might have tackled it earlier.
I'm also kind of surprised I haven't thought of it before. I mean, I think the only collections of short fiction I've read are Anais Nin's erotica.
Well, maybe one of what is it? Hugo? Nebula? or something. And the Tales of the Bounty Hunters.
@KitFox I have quite a few collections of short stories.
OK, maybe a few others, but I don't think I own more than four out of the several hundred books I have on my shelves.
But this last bit of flash fiction I wrote, I thought, I kind of feel like I have a good idea of flash fiction sized stories and wouldn't it be nice to get published by someone I don't know?
Well, yes.
00:14
And then I thought, wouldn't it be nice if I worked on some other skill too?
And hey, I haven't really tackled short fiction yet. I bet I could learn a lot about the craft from that.
The nice thing about it is you have to learn how to tell a story quickly, but if it doesn't work out you haven't used a lot of time on it.
You can write a dozen stories, learning from each one.
I mean, I learned a lot from writing two really crappy novels, but I think I could learn to write novels better if I learned to write short stories. Then I would spend less time writing crappy novels until I figured out how novels work.
Yes, that.
You got it.
Somewhere in the last year or so, I stopped worrying about publishing a novel.
People don't realize that the first 100,000 to 500,000 words they write are going to be shit, in most cases, and are about learning more than anything.
I'd like to someday have a book, but it could be a collection of short works.
I think I realized that there's a whole lot more than one story in me.
So I should make each one pretty.
@jsbձոգչ This essay made me think of you.
What is it called when you are found guilty and what they do to you?
00:23
Judgment?
Incarceration?
Sentencing?
Elocution? Adjudication?
I tried to sound it best that I can but I have a speech imperment...
contercessce
Hmm.
Can you explain it more?
Here is a example
00:26
@KitFox Conviction?
what is the contercessce of breaking a rule
Consequence?
Thank you
@Robusto I quite like the idea of writing. I'm not so great at the actual practice.
01:06
@TRiG It's like anything else. If you do it enough you get good at it.
 
2 hours later…
 
6 hours later…
08:45
posted on June 14, 2014 by sgdi

I much prefer signal to noise Signal teaches while noise just annoys A ratio of none Can sometimes be fun But entropy tends to destroy

09:16
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Probably looks smarter than he is.
 
2 hours later…
11:04
@Kit: BTW, this June—Sunday, in fact—is the centennial of the publication of Dubliners. So the book of stories didn't get published until almost a decade after the burning incident.
Another great set of stories is The Book of Sand by Jorge Luis Borges.
You're up early.
Been up for hours.
> The sleeping fox catches no poultry. Up! Up! —Benjamin Franklin
So basically all night?
I slept from 22.00 to 8.00.
No. Since around five.
What time is it now?
11:10
7:10
Lunchtime where you are, I expect.
11:21
Yes, 13.21.
11:55
There is something about using a decimal point to write time that just doesn't sit right with me.
12:08
I don't like poultry and my day is starting poorly in any case.
@skullpatrol because it's not decimal?
@KitFox yep
@KitFox Did you find the answer to the question about using a comma in titles to catalog them?
12:24
@skullpatrol But it isn't a ratio either.
@Cerberus True.
Besides, decimals are marked with a comma...
€9,99.
@skullpatrol no I didn't.
@KitFox It sounds like something they would know at librarians.SE :-)
@skullpatrol I agree. It makes an American think that seconds should be a decimal representation. Eurotrashies don't have that dilemma, though, since they use commas as decimal separators.
Oh, and you've already discussed this. Never mind.
12:34
:D
@KitFox But do you like catching poultry. As a predator, you should know that's what the game is about.
'Cause when they pull the shutters down
and throw up in the dark,
they'll find that all the dogs outside
bite much worse than they bark.
That's true of foxes too, I would think.
@Robusto We prefer the term Euro Recyclable Materials, thank you very much.
12:50
@Cerberus I've seen you guys floating around in the oceans. It's not a pretty sight.
I thought the biggest ocean dump was off your western shores...
I've seen you guys floating around there, too.
The Great Pacific garbage patch, also described as the Pacific trash vortex, is a gyre of marine debris particles in the central North Pacific Ocean located roughly between 135°W to 155°W and 35°N and 42°N. The patch extends over an indeterminate area, with estimates ranging very widely depending on the degree of plastic concentration used to define the affected area. The patch is characterized by exceptionally high concentrations of pelagic plastics, chemical sludge and other debris that have been trapped by the currents of the North Pacific Gyre. Despite its size and density (4 par...
I know. I am joking with you. Apparently I had to say that.
I wasn't entirely sure what you were referring to, but apparently it was just trash in general...
13:02
@Robusto "throwing up in the dark" ... so ashamed.
I thought perhaps there was a little reference to Plato here, en echo of Verdi there...
??
'Eurotrash' is a thing. What kind of thing I don't know.
@Cerberus Rule of thumb: If something I say sounds like it is contrary to the sense of what you expect, please consider that I may be indulging in levity.
!!wiki eurotrash
Eurotrash may refer to: * Eurotrash (term), a pejorative term for some Europeans, or products from Europe * Eurotrash (TV series), a 1990s British TV series * "Eurotrash", a short story in the collection The Acid House by Irvine Welsh Music *"Eurotrash", a song by the Dropkick Murphys * "Eurotrash", a song and album by Zeromancer * "Euro-Trash Girl", a song by Cracker
@Mitch Hello. I thought it was a kind of music.
13:03
Several kinds of thing.
Many of which rotting.
I've only ever heard it referring to... certain kinds of people.
rotting music?
You know Vicky from Little Britain?
Trashy, yes. European, yes. but eurotrash?
The definitive source, wikipedia, is self-contradictory. It says "arrogant, lower-class, and expatriates in the United States." and "those decadent European rich so numerous in Manhattan nowadays"
Eurotrash is a derogatory term used in North America for certain Europeans, particularly those perceived to be arrogant, lower-class, and expatriates in the United States. Among the early printed uses of the term was in the early 1980s, when Taki Theodoracopulos, a wealthy Greek living in New York, wrote the "Eurotrash" column in The East Side Express. In a similar bent, in writing a 1983 article for Rolling Stone, Anthony Haden-Guest described "those decadent European rich so numerous in Manhattan nowadays — 'International White Trash', as the uncharitable put it..." See also * Guido...
Wah! I broke another hammer lever on my digital piano.
Sux to be me.
Mar 25 '13 at 3:26, by Robusto
And another hammer on my piano broke: B-flat 4. I have to stop banging it so damn hard. Lucky I got extra hammers.
This time it's the A4. Funny how that note seems to be in everything I play.
Running out of hammers here.
13:32
@Cerberus Probably.
@Robusto Stop banging on it so damn hard.
i no rite
Looks like we won't be having a primary.
dang
Still only nine. Need eleven.
13:34
But I bought a new dress!
I'll make sure you get to wear it, honey.
preens
what? 11? I thought 10.
oh. one more than 10.
> However, if there are 10 candidates or less, we skip directly to the election phase.
*fewer
ha!
I think it would be the same if there were 9 and a half candidates
13:35
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 It's pronounced fever.
@Robusto I think you mean fervor.
I mean this. ^
All through the night?
What else? It's fever.
It's the flu.
13:38
> Fever, yea I burn forsooth.
> Chicks were born to give you fever / Be it Fahrenheit or Centigrade
So Europeans and Americans alike can have fever.
Europeans get metric fever, though.
The metric system has decimated Europe.
6
With fever.
In the morning, and fever all through the night.
Aww, c'mon. Isn't anyone going to thwack me? Where's @Martha?
Thank you.
feels good and thwacked
And speaking of decimals and Tom Lehrer . . .
Good morning (day, evening for other time zones) !
What is a good way to express "earlier in this paper I wrote about this and this and this" ("now I'm going to show you something even more convincing") in an academic paper?
I'm not sure how to phrase that "earlier" part.
13:49
The word "earlier" works just fine.
"Earlier I wrote about . . ."
"Earlier I suggested that . . ."
"Earlier I offered proof that . . . "
Were you playing "Shot With His Own Gun" when the hammer broke?
@Robusto Hmm ... I'll try that or maybe I'll come up with a more coherent question later
:-)
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 No. I was playing a Bach piece.
OT: is it possible to install custom English spelling dictionaries on OS X? I hate the default one.
Ask on SuperUser or one of the other sites. Or just google it.
13:53
What is OT?
Off-topic.
Oh, I see.
@Robusto Oh yeah?
@Alraxite that's OIC.
I'll just live with it until I finish writing this bloody paper...
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Aye. But I have the music for that song.
13:55
@Robusto And not for Shot?
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Yes, for Shot. That's what I was trying to convey.
@Robusto OIC
guzzles coffee
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I do not.
But I may soon.
13:59
I some how found a copy of that on the clearance shelf at Half Price Books.
I grasped it to my chest.
Hmm, it's getting shit reviews on Amazon.
> This is the worst book on a significant artist ever.
Averaging 2.6 stars.
I ha'nt read it all.
> I'm a big fan of Costello's and was deeply disappointed on all levels, though I now understand why Elvis doesn't often speak with the press.
Well, since you already own it, you can draw your own conclusions.
If you like it, I'll buy it.
I will.
My aim is true.
A recommendation by someone whose taste you trust is better than all the online reviews put together.
I'm flattered that you trust my taste.
BTW, I'm going to a A Very Large Book Sale this morning and will look for Dubliners.
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Nice.
Mine still has all my college notes scribbled in the margins.
Underlines and stars and what have you.
Yes, stars. No unicorns, though.
Of course not. They're not real.
Speaking of coffee, why am I not drinking any right now?
You clearly need some, or you'd know the answer.
I shaved some dark chocolate onto the top of it.
Use upvote as a noun, vote up as a verb. That should be a consideration to the reader. — Kris 35 mins ago
What nonsense.
> Honestly, kiamlaluno, I just wish your English was better.
@Robusto Metric is not just Eurpoe
@JohanLarsson Neither was the bubonic plague. Doesn't mean Europe wasn't affected by it.
14:15
The first part of summer smells so nice
Especially if it rains
I'll see that and raise you Laura Nyro.
Did you come up with a better female voice than Aretha?
14:18
@JohanLarsson You gave me a difficult task.
yes I know
Ella?
@JohanLarsson You did say "better" female voice, and that's the hard part. I think others ascend to her empyrean, but do they go higher? Very hard call to make.
Overall I prefer Ella, I like her effortless perfection
OK. But I wouldn't call her "better" than Aretha.
@Ninja, do you understand all the fancy words he wrote?
14:20
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 We were talking summer-go-out-and-party music, weren't we?
@Robusto of course.
yeah better is pretty dumb in context but I'm a furringer so I don't need to worry about it
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 empyrean The region of pure light and fire; the highest heaven, where the pure element of fire was supposed by the ancients to exist: the same as the ether, the ninth heaven according to ancient astronomy.
@JohanLarsson There's only one word in that sentence you might find difficult, and it's easy enough to google.
!!define empyrean
14:21
@Robusto empyrean The region of pure light and fire; the highest heaven, where the pure element of fire was supposed by the ancients to exist: the same as the ether, the ninth heaven according to ancient astronomy.
Now you see it was exactly the right word for what I wanted to convey.
Again.
I never doubted
who is Vitaly?
Used to chat here. Gone for a couple years now.
Not hot enough here for that, but ymmv.
Is there a better summer song than Bob Marley's Jammin?
This probably doesn't mean anything to you, @Rob.
14:30
First time I've seen it.
That of course is Kool & The Gang's "Summer Madness".
@mitch Hmm what's the contradiction?
Nice win yesterday Cerb
!!shampoo or no shampoo
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 shampoo
14:33
!!afk shower
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Stay safe.
Another take on it.
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 A day without shampoo is like a day without shampoo.
@Robusto Ahhhh, yes.
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Btw, I do know K&TG Summer Madness. But I didn't click on your link because of the Fresh Prince thing, so I didn't get what you were putting out.
Remedied.
@JohanLarsson Now ask yourself what empyrean and pyramid have in common.
@Cerberus would know in a second.
14:38
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Were you bitten!? Strip! Prove you weren't bitten.
strips, takes shower
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Don't tease.
@Robusto country?
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Immediate disqualification for the association with the Chicago Cubs. Sorry. The Cubs ruined a lot of shit for me.
@JohanLarsson Think harder.
Who named the pyramids "pyramids"?
gonna think slower
no idea, the Greeks?
14:40
That's a bingo.
Hmm, I don't agree with Etymonline on this one.
@Robusto Pardon my ignorance but clears throat what's so great about Dubliners?
According to H.D.F. Kitto, noted Greek and Classics scholar, the Ptolemaic Greeks named those large structures pyramids meaning "buns" because they looked like the buns they were accustomed to eating.
@Robusto I actually don't know the etymology of pyramis.
@Mitch I don't have time to argue with you. Gotta take my car in in five minutes. But here's the Cliff Notes: It's an amazing collection of short stories. The End.
Or didn't, until you typed that.
@JohanLarsson Thank you! But what did I win?
14:43
And obelisk because they looked like needles.
@Cerberus He can only be talking about the World Cup preliminary rounds.
@Cerberus you beat Spain humiliation style
Ah, that.
@Cerberus had nothing to do with it. Don't congratulate him. He's a freeloader on the Dutch Dynamo.
I heard some cheering from outside the window.
And . . . I'm out.
14:46
@Robusto Chantraine apparently agrees with you.
Bai!
@Cerberus lower-class vs decadent rich. Which is it? USed as an epithet (humorous of course) it could only apply to the arrogant rich playing around in the US, as opposed to the summer workers who thought they were going to learn English, but instead are washing dishes at the cafeteria for rich 12 year old americans at summer camp.
@JohanLarsson NIce! @Cerb, I didn't know you played! Go Orange!
@Robusto There's no argument. I don't have an opinion the other way, except the usual "I read it in high school, or rather I was supposed to have read it in high school and skimmed it right before class". I just remember there was a cow, and maybe something something walking around Dublin.
Oh and a summary of "A Separate Peace" by a lazy former highschooler: "Two guys in a tree. Did somebody ... fall?"
Canterbury Tales: "A bunch of old medieval people telling stories. A nun told one. A fart joke and something about a woman with a beard"
@Mitch Lower class can be decadent rich.
Hamlet: "What a whiner. Everyone dies at the end."
The most decadent rich are often lower class...
Like Russian tycoons.
@Cerberus not in the US. class = money.
14:57
Nah.
That's just the economic/sociological kind.
If there were no difference between "upperclass" and "rich", we'd all just be saying "rich".
In the US upperclass = rich.
so when euros come over here, and they're rich, they're also -not- lower class. here. in the US.
As always, I do not trust that information.
Because you're not in the US.
19
Q: Does America have its Versions of U- and Non-U English?

CerberusIn Britain and most of Europe, some form of U-speak exists: old-money language has certain features that distinguish it from other language. In Dutch, it doesn't really have a name, but it is still very much alive. I believe the same applies to England. The phenomenon is just very hard to researc...

@Mitch I do not trust you to know this, no offence!
Class is a complicated word with many different meanings.
Many a Dutchman would also give you answers about certain sub-topics like "that does not exist" even though it did.
@Cerberus THat's England, not the US. If there's a difficulty. I'm talking about class in the US (and what eurotrash means to americans) not about England or the Netherlands.
@Cerberus "In the USA, social class is more likely to be linked to income (money, economic class) than anything else." (one of the upvoted answers)
15:04
@Mitch I disagree.
@Cerberus Would you trust me more about meanings of words as used by Americans than yourself?
In general, yes; in this case, not enough.
@Mitch And partly wrong.
@Cerberus What part of it do you disagree with? THat I am talking about americans? Or that as an american I do not understand the american class system?
The latter.
And you understand it better having more experience with class in America than I do?
15:08
I think it is a bit of a common myth among Americans that they only have class in the strict economic sense.
I have seen enough of the other sense wrt. America.
But I have to go now.
15:20
Is there a word in English which describes someone who's from the same place as me?
Same place could mean hometown, country, region, etc.. The point is to express that we have something in common, culturally.
Of course this is easy to describe in a few words, but I'm looking for a word/expression which can be used as a noun, as in "s/he is my XYZ", which expresses that "s/he's form the same place as me". I don't think this exists in English, but I'm asking anyway to make sure.
Sort of how "he's my brother" means that we have the same parents.
@JohanLarsson as in "fellow Englishman"?
Compatriot
Just found landsman.
It'll be a bit humorous to use in this context though
15:25
@Szabolcs yea that was my guess. I don't speak the language though.
15
Q: Word for people who live in the same city

ShayanWhat are the people who live in the same city are called? Any words for that? I want to use it in the following context: I and my ____ are happy.

And the ELL link therin
@Alraxite Yes, you're right. The reason why I don't like it is that is emphasizes on belonging and being loyal to a country/nation (as in political entity).
@Alraxite Thanks, there's enough in there to find the right one.
So what's the difference between ELL and this site? Specifically, what's off topic here that's on topic on the other site?
There must be a meta on this.
21
Q: What is the difference between ELU and ELL?

DigerkamA question of mine has been suggested to migrate ELL site, Why is there two Q&A sites for English language? What can I ask on each site?

15:47
Is anyone else unable to log into meta.elu.se?
16:42
@alx9r Not me.
@Mitch You're thinking of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
17:11
@Alraxite Thanks. I think it's related to the broken SSL certificate stackexchange is using for meta.english.stackexchange.com
17:23
@alx9r I can't connect to it through that link without getting an untrusted connection warning either!
I can, however, connect if I instead use http.
17:34
@Robusto I think that's part of the problem. Didn't make much of an impression.
@Szabolcs Is there a word for those things in your language? Paisano? Copain?
@Alraxite I can't login to meta.english.stackexchange.com without https at all. I can only login to meta.english.stackexchange.com after I've clicked through the untrusted connection warning.
@Alraxite This is concerning because it's filtering users from participating in meta. :(
I get the same thing at meta.travel.stackexchange.com.
Here's the network-wide bug report. meta.stackexchange.com/q/234031/262052
I wonder how many people try to vote on the meta topics and can't.
17:52
@alx9r So what do you get if you use http instead?
@Mitch Yes. You're asking why I didn't use a dictionary. It seems obvious solutions just don't occur to me.
@Mitch no. 8 here
@alx9r Ah, it seems you've answered that in your meta question.
18:54
@Mitch Not to diss you or anything, but it wouldn't make much of an impression on a cave man, either. What I mean is, either you "get" literature or you don't. Sounds like you don't.
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