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8:02 PM
hi there
it's the 2nd time I come here for advice :)
anyone willing to spend a few minutes to clear out my doubts regarding .NET - beginner stage?
It's no technical question - I need professional advice
@Kapol I've got a clean and simple solution for your woes; learn Haskell and all will be made visible.
...ok now that that's out of the way; what did you actually come here to ask?
oh hi
I'm a guy learning .NET
oh hi
I'm a guy writing .NET
right now I know some C# and TSQL and I was wondering what's my next step
(can I get an ack?)
@Kapol Depends on your goal
8:15 PM
get a job in .NET development
@Kapol What kind? Doing what?
Have you got a degree?
yes, but it's maths
and right now I'm writing in VBA professionally
Cool on both accounts
and I'd like to switch, but so far
I've been on two interviews
Switch to what ? Different language? Different type of programming?
8:16 PM
switch to something more exciting than VBA, for sure :)
I have to say I REALLY enjoy programming
and I'd like to get into it full time
from my interviews do far I see I'm to much of a newb
What type of things are you interviewing for?
Pick one: Web Applications, Desktop Applications, Mobile Applications, Embedded Applications, Internal Business Applications (think timesheets and departmental integration; software that never gets publically used)
No, I mean it. Pick one. Which one would you like to do from that list?
thank you for the input
or freebie open source and live like a bum
hard to pick, because I'd have to say I don't really know any...
8:18 PM
What are you doing in vba now?
writing stuff in Excel that automates business analysis for accounting
@ratchetfreak surfing starbucks lobbies... That's just not a life I can encourage others into; it's one step shy of suggesting they not worry about working, and join a commune
That falls into the Internal Business Applications.
@JimmyHoffa You and your rigid ways
well, I'm not sure that it's the kind of stuff that I'd like to do, really... I know I should pick one thing, but that would be basically picking blindly
8:21 PM
"Adopt an Open Source programmer... see this poor, helpless guy sitting at Starbucks? He needs a job. He doesn't know it, but he really does... He can be your programmer for only $200/day..."
anyway, suppose I'd go with Internal Business Apps
Sure everything's fine for a while when you do that, but before you know it the open source project leader has you hocking jams on street corners while trying to recruit passersby to grow a beard and follow your doctrine. When you're knee-deep in a group believing the world's going to end if you don't drink the koolaid and everyone around you is going to be murdered by bitcoin operatives while the ground swells up and swallows MS execs, I think you just need a job at that point.
what technology then?
@Kapol as bland as it sounds, internal business apps is probably the easiest step from VBA - and every company needs it in some way, shape or form.
8:24 PM
@MichaelT I am so not reading anything that dense, though +1 for having something that detailed about beards on the ready...
@JimmyHoffa just read the conclusion then that's what all journalists do
@Kapol internal business apps often are VBA. It's not glamorous work but it's often times good and stable work that pays plenty well
@ratchetfreak They just read the Abstract...
The thing I'd try doing that would leverage your current experience - write a .NET app (C# I assume?) that creates an excel document with "Hello" at A1 and "World" at A2
8:26 PM
yea, C#
The strength of the interview would be "I may be a newbie at C#, but I do know how to work with the existing integrations of internal applications from my previous experience - you're not going to need to teach me how to write an excel report because I already know how to do that."
@Kapol If you want to work on internal business apps, a good space to start is learning about some of the internal business apps that are common used; often times a hand in sys-admin type work can go a long way for these folks because they tend to do a lot of integrating systems. They use things like automated batch software, and ETL tools are common
Learning the language is the easy part. You've already got a bit of the hard part done with your VBA experience.
Go find some ETL tools and play around with those a bit, get your head around fiddling with SQL databases, and look at some of the more complex workflow-automation tools out there that do things like run batches with conditions in sequences etc etc
now I am confused
8:29 PM
In computing, extract, transform, and load (ETL) refers to a process in database usage and especially in data warehousing that: * Extracts data from outside sources * Transforms it to fit operational needs, which can include quality levels * Loads it into the end target (database, more specifically, operational data store, data mart, or data warehouse) ETL systems are commonly used to integrate data from multiple applications, typically developed and supported by different vendors or hosted on separate computer hardware. The disparate systems containing the original data are frequently ...
Internal LOB app folk tend to find themselves being handed other people's software and asked to both host and extend/integrate it with other stuff
OK, so just to be clear
So they end up relying on process automation tools for integration work like ETL and batching systems, and they end up responsible for the administration of the hosting systems much of the time
the best way for me would be to get a job as a NET programmer writing those kind of tool?
I.E. "We just bought this new timesheet software, but we have this other local intranet software and we want people to be able to use our intranet to access and review their timesheets"
8:31 PM
and more often than not seem to be putting about in massive excel tables
OK, this seems like a good idea
@ratchetfreak Yeah, like I initially said, much of internal LOB stuff is done in VBA
so is there anything else important related to NET other than a language and SQL for this kind of programming?
should I focus on mastering these or is there anything else that is a must?
There's no right way to develop the skills you need to have a career in software development The path to finding your way in a programming career is to follow your curiosity. Learn about the things that you are interested in. Take some classes, read some books and blogs. But mostly, write code. Lots of it. Get better. Show prospective employers that you know how to solve problems.
8:33 PM
Now go find your way, grasshopper.
the thing is
OK, I'll give you an example
right now I have a TSQL database
I'd like to do some application for myself that would enable me to interact with that database
@RobertHarvey s/perspective/prospective/
but to be honest I don't know what to use for it
I tried to find some advice on the net
and people are saying that HTML5 is the future
@Kapol Use it for a proof of concept that you can do it.
@RobertHarvey bzzzt Wrong! There is a right way to have a career in software. First, you get the Haskell, then you get the categories, then you get the career
8:35 PM
people always say new language X is the future
HTML 5 is a step forward for web pages and presentation. It means nothing to the internal business.
it never is
@Kapol HTML5 has nothing to do with TSQL, other than you can use both of them to develop an application.
@ratchetfreak They're wrong, X is crap, Haskell is the future.
Oh, shush.
8:36 PM
@JimmyHoffa my point exactly, you say haskell is the future, yet it isn't
@ratchetfreak I'm so kidding..
Haskell will never gain sincere popularity
Haskell will be the future... some day... maybe in 2100.
Haskell is the alpha and omega, the beginning and end. Mostly the end.
I read about it in Revelations.
@Kapol To me it feels like you're stuck in the loop of being worried about not knowing what you don't know. Don't be afraid that you are going to miss some big glowing topic in the realm of .NET as you start working with the language. If something is big and important to all aspects of a language odds are you will come across it in your regular travels of documentation and examples.
@RobertHarvey As long as there are no side effects between the beginning and the end, then yes.
8:36 PM
problem is that there are too many languages that are good (or at least decent enough) at what they do
@ratchetfreak the problem is the universities are teaching all the wrong languages!
> New programming languages will be developed at rates of more than 2 per month forever.
This law was first stated in 1984 when the author began a survey of programming languages in order to predict the number of source code statements per function point. As of 2014 there are close to 3,000 named programming languages and new languages continue to be developed at what might be an accelerating rate. No one knows why this phenomenon occurs. No one knows why the software industry needs thousands of programming languages especially when the majority of applications are written in the most common languages. Probably sociological reasons are part of the constant creation of new lan
thank you @Mike, this seems like legit advice
and you are right - I'm worried about what I don't know at the moment
8:38 PM
> There are no programming languages that are optimal for all known forms of software.
and many egomaniacs that want to put their stamp on the world by creating a new language
@MichaelT Incorrect again. Man, you guys are sure wrong a lot today... I'd tell you about Haskell but I get a strange feeling you guys just aren't listening...
@ratchetfreak Espcially languags without e's
“It must be suitable enterprise-wide,” the stranger replied, “client-side and server-side, in scripting, in shells and in spreadsheet cells. I need it real-time, multi-threaded and optionally object-oriented; with garbage collection, deadlock detection, custom exceptions, auto-resizing arrays of things and regular expressions for matching strings. I want the simplicity of BASIC, the purity of Smalltalk, the brevity of Haskell, the speed of C, the consistency of Lisp, the readability of Python, the flexibility of Perl, and the portability of... Java, I guess, but with native code bindings
8:39 PM
OK guys, thank you for everything
I guess that I'll decide something tomorrow and stick with it
@RobertHarvey we are going to keep correcting each other aren't we
heil grammar
@MichaelT Yeah I know, and it's called Haskell... sheesh, you'd think I was on ignore or something...
@JimmyHoffa Haskell was mentioned in there.
@MichaelT And I want it with chocolate sprinkles, mounted on a stick.
@RobertHarvey can it be fried too?
8:41 PM
@MichaelT The end jab at java is the best
@RobertHarvey my kid will eat most any food we can put on a stick; good thing we have a big set of chopsticks.
I'm tempted to write a user script that replaces "haskell" with "I want a pony"
@Mike heh... yep.
But also its a "well, nothing else does it either"
@RobertHarvey Anything is better on a stick.
8:42 PM
yeah, I couldn't come up with a better one to stick in there
on a stick
covered with chocolate sprinkles
and a beer on the side
@AshleyNunn March 28th (the US has the best holidays)
@ratchetfreak s/beer/some booze/
@MichaelT Is that food on a stick day?
8:43 PM
@AshleyNunn yep.
Excellent. I will find some way to celebrate appropriately
@MichaelT ok that's a hell of a coincidence that this comes up just 8 days ahead of time..
[boy, the guys in that room are weird] - Kapol
> Something on a Stick Day is observed on March 28, 2014. The holiday celebrates things on a stick like popsicles, corndogs and marshmallows. The celebration of Something on a Stick Day is really easy: 1. get a stick; 2. push something on it; 3. have fun with your creation!
8:44 PM
so wait a week with the stick jokes
Never thought I'd get this much mileage out of the stick thing.
@RobertHarvey I bet you didn't know that was a celebrated event.
Totally didn't know that. There's a day/year/month for everything.
@RobertHarvey I just sent my wife a message requesting we plan to eat dinner on a stick next Friday...
8:46 PM
@MichaelT Geez, you go to a shitload of operas man
From the company calendar... we're doing it on the Thursday because people (like me) often head elsewhere on Friday lunch.
you must know Italian by now at that rate
Operations - Daily Briefing...
@MichaelT I prefer mine
Though I'll see about trying that opera thing tomorrow.
8:47 PM
> Multiple programming languages are needed for all complex software systems. The range of observed languages in specific applications is from 2 to 15.
^^ a good reason to know both VBA and C#
Though the idea of a 15 language project is... frightening.
some people struggle with 1
Who is writing software applications in 15 different languages?
@MichaelT the polyglot in me just loves the thought, terrible as it surely truly is (half the languages are probably pre-1990 languages if I had to guess a scenario where someone had 15 languages in their software; my guess would be long-lived legacy stuff)
8:52 PM
legacy always had some bright eyed intern introducing yet another language into it to "clean the whole thing up"
Its probably something like... html + css + javascript + ${Enterprise lang} + SQL + ${Rule DSL} + Cobol + ${script} ...
Hmm... this is a fun chain. People have apparently learned not to refer to P.SE
Q: Are there web development companies out there that hire smart people with no experience and train them?

user3439000I have two BS degrees but am not interested in pursuing either field. Very interested in web development but have no experience and don't know where to start. ANY advice would be extremely helpful. Thanks so much!

Q: Are there companies out there that will hire someone without experience and train them?

user3439000I am new to web development but VERY eager to learn. My question may be ridiculous but I thought I would ask if anyone has ever heard of a company training/teaching their developers. If you haven't heard of any or don't know at all, I could really use some advice on where to start! It feels almos...

You might try asking on The Workplace SE. I'd suggest reading their general guidelines first, though, because I'm not familiar enough with the SE to know if this question is on-topic there either. — computerfreaker yesterday
8:55 PM
even desktop apps require more than 1
if you bound the build script
Wow, it did worse on TW than SO. The SO'ers merely voted to close it.
TW got some comments... and they may be trying to shut down questions that might get hot but should get closed quickly too.
@RobertHarvey - did you nuke that one on SO? It's 404'd now
Not like I'm missing anything by not seeing it, but just curious since MichaelT just posted the link
You're not missing anything.
8:59 PM
That'll teach me to be slow on the click-through
The only other bit on there is the misunderstanding of "off topic" and "offensive"
@GlenH7 that'll teach you to be below 10k
(still having a tab open)
@ratchetfreak but the churn! oh the churn! of SO
9:01 PM
(new feed items pops up... twitch twitch out of close votes...)
@MichaelT been like that all day
More churning makes better ice cream.
I can haz ice cream?
This answer is essentially content-free. The problem is not so much with your answer as it is with the question; the question is so broad that it would require the better part of a book chapter to answer properly, and since you didn't write one... My advice is to focus on the questions that are reasonably answerable with a few well-written paragraphs. Unfortunately there aren't many good questions being posted today. Most of them are crap. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago
@RobertHarvey I'm tempted to steal your quote and edit it into my MP.SE request for more close votes.
9:13 PM
I flagged one question a few minutes ago with "The Whiteboard regulars are out of close votes. Please close."
Q: Provide 10k users more close votes

GlenH7Please provide 10k+ users more close votes. Why? Putting questions on-hold in a timely fashion is critical in providing useful feedback to new users. It's rare for salvageable questions to be put on-hold without a constructive comment having been left. Quickly putting questions on-hold keeps...

@TimPost one thing I've stumbled across for around noon (CST) is that a number of the people who are more active in closing (and migrating questions) is that, well, we're out of close votes (if you've got 3 of the most common closers out, its often hard to muster timely votes) to migrate a question (rather than waiting another 6-7 hours for people to refresh votes). One of my pet peeves is the "belongs on" comments that lead to multiple postings. — MichaelT Mar 4 at 17:12
You did ask for feedback. You didn't like the feedback, I guess. Note that I left a comment; I didn't write an answer. Had I written that as an actual answer, I probably would have been heavily downvoted. — Robert Harvey 2 mins ago
Sup guys
@RobertHarvey if I may ask, did anything come about from that rejected migration last night?
9:21 PM
What rejected migration?
I left Bohemian a message in TL, but he may not have gotten it (his name didn't intellisense).
@Shahar 'Sappening.
Do you guys think
for a PHP website
with a comment section
@Shahar Nope. We only compute.
you didn't even listen to the question...
9:23 PM
You didn't finish
what you were saying
it has a comment question
and what my question is
load the first 15 in the php
or not load it and then automatically load it when the client gets it
The first 15 comments?
I mean like
When you click on it, the circly thing comes up for the comments
the comments are loaded after the page
I've seen all sorts of comment designs. Some have the top rated, displayed on the article page, and then you click add and go to the full comments page.
9:26 PM
Question is: load comments as the page is loading or just send the page with the comments
Send the page with the first 15 comments. Provide a "Load more" button or link.
if there's more than 15.
Yeah that's what I have now
but I don't know, I think it causes it to take longer to load
I would think it takes less time to load, if you're loading less comments initially.
well not longer to fully load
but more annoying to people
If people aren't reading all of the comments, loading them all up is just a waste of time and bandwidth.
9:28 PM
I'm still loading them
question is present a comment-less page and then send a request to load them
or just present a page with the comments
because I see a lot of websites doing the former
There's no right answer. Do what makes sense for your page, your bandwidth, and your readership.
If it takes you 10 seconds to load the comments, and people aren't going to get to the bottom of the page in 10 seconds, load them later.
If you've got an image macro on imgur that takes 2 seconds to consume, waiting 10 seconds for the comments (which is where most of the content is) would be bad.
I don't know what I'm more annoyed with right now. Trying to explain to a great real-time developer that Java wasn't the best choice for a real-time application (which was made long before either of us were assigned to the project) or dealing with the limitations in UDP datagram size.
Q: How come that there are 5 Workplace questions in the hot list?

gnatLast two days I observe that there are 5 Workplace questions in the Hot Network Questions list. Given that list contains 100 questions and there are more than 100 sites in SE network, equal distribution would mean less than one question per site in that list, how comes that Workplace presence is...

9:31 PM
Some sites arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/… don't even load the comments on that page but have you go to another one.
@ThomasOwens You should take out your anger by using your binding vote and closing off lots of the crap questions that have hit the site today..
@MichaelT What do you mean by "image macro"? @RobertHarvey They read the comments
This is where I ask the question "What problem are you trying to solve?"
Or, if you prefer, "What is the most important problem you're trying to solve?"
That is an image macro / meme.
9:33 PM
(incidentally from the link you gave earlier)
o.. kay?
That takes 2 seconds for me to consume.
If that.
OH that's what you meant
So I want to start reading the comments on the 3rd second.
9:34 PM
Yeah I mean it does take 2 second to consume
... "and then what happened?"
For my purposes
It's a comment section after an image
So the problem you're trying to solve is it takes too long for your page to load?
But, if I go to an Ars Technica page, it tends to take a minute or so for me to read enough for the comments to make sense... so if they don't load for 30 seconds, I don't know/care.
So the problem is partially loading the top portion of the page, so that the comments can lazily load while you're trying to figure out why a dark-skinned guy with a beanie is in ur memez?
9:36 PM
@RobertHarvey Yes... Kind of
The problem is
I don't really like how I see the loading bar
(btw, we got over 30k questions sometime in the past not so long...)
in imgur, for example, you click on an image and you are instantly redirected to a page
once you reach the page, only then it loads the comments/image
@RobertHarvey a couple of messages reached him. You can enable your magic MSO diamond to see deleted comments here where he confirms receipt
@gnat OK.
9:40 PM
By the way the "Hot Questions" kind of sucks now because they try to incorporate every SE sub
A: Improving the System to Deal with Bad Answers

RosinanteTo me, this seems to be skipping over the larger scale issue -- watching the 'hot network questions' leads me to think that several of the recent sites are gigantic broken windows of self-absorbed subjectivity. Workplace and Personal Growth, to start. The questions are whiney, the answers are opi...

@Shahar it'd be better if it had more questions from SEs you go to regularly
@Shahar There are many reasons for its suck. There are some ideas that would make it more targeted to what you want or something that Shog mentioned...
but also that means that P.SE and TW are likely to get pounded more from SO... which isn't a good thing.
"guess which sites you like" - oh no, this likely means more hordes of passers-by from hot list that just happen to liek c00l stuff at softer sites like Workplace and Programmers, with their senseless answers and votes. As if we didn't have enough damage already. You'd better redirect them to Stack Overflow, where it's claimed to be an issue of -17 prioritygnat Mar 13 at 17:44
9:43 PM
Why is there a software requirement that states that a method should only be visible to the rest of the code during a certain art of the application's lifetime? Couldn't you simply throw an exception in the method if it is not yet time to call it? — Robert Harvey 55 secs ago
@RobertHarvey - I ended up stealing your comment and the entire comment thread from that java question. I thought it was too perfect of an example to show why we need to be able to close stuff faster. meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/a/6556/53019
Okay here's my hot list:
star wars, some Gary dude about his workplace, Unix crap, Simple series
A question about some random movie, meaningless SO question
and then there's some peacock thing website
@RobertHarvey Have you heard of/looked at OWIN?
What is that?
I'm looking at using it for some rearchitecting we're doing... seems really cool...
9:48 PM
Some kind of code weaving AOP tool?
@GlenH7 Grab a screen shot from 'most close votes today' programmers.stackexchange.com/tools?tab=close&daterange= - note how many 3s and 4s there are that should be closed... and would have been if we had close votes.
@RobertHarvey you don't know? oh man it's the best thing ever! this isn't a fad i promise!
@GlenH7 I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to go into Meta's chat room and ask if any Community Managers could help out with closing a bunch of questions that are attracting crap (and downvoted) answers since we're out of close votes.
(though they'd probably say "wait 2 hours")
9:50 PM
@RobertHarvey no; we actually use PostSharp for AOP a bit here which I quite like. OWIN is actually a new thing from MS to basically displace WCF sorta. It's a spec for communication between services and their hosting processes, idea being if you implement a service and follow the spec, you can use any of their hosts to host your service. So you can host it in console, host it in windows service, host it in IIS, without changing any code. Just drop your OWIN service in the OWIN host
@MichaelT What happened to @ThomasOwens?
@RobertHarvey Its 3pm in California... there's that "work" thing that those west coasters do late.
I'm in California. Shit, I'd better get some work done.
@MichaelT hard to say, yes
Yea... its almost 5pm here... so I better get some done too.
9:51 PM
But looking over that list of questions left me cringing
Wait Robert what are you doing here then
@JimmyHoffa Anything that displaces WCF is a good thing AFAIC. What is it about Microsoft that gives it this propensity to create large, bloated, overcomplicated, over-hyped tools when the simple thing will do?
@Shahar He's helping mentor up and coming C# programmers.
@MichaelT on the chat?
And occasionally pretending to know Java.
9:52 PM
It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it.
I'm asking about this chat room
Careful. The NSA is listening.
Start reading...
2 hours ago, by Kapol
hi there
@MichaelT - should I incorporate those screen captures into my meta gimme more votes question?
9:53 PM
@GlenH7 Yep.
1 hour ago, by Robert Harvey
Now go find your way, grasshopper.
@RobertHarvey OWIN has the appearances of simple; it's meant to modularize the components of services
Occasionally, @RobertHarvey finds SO questions linked in here that need some... prompt... moderator action over there.
"freebie open source and live like a bum" sounds like the life
@JimmyHoffa It sounds like Remoting V3.0.
@Shahar Finding clean water and a roof that doesn't leak can be difficult.
9:56 PM
@RobertHarvey Don't remind me... repairs soon.
Must be.
Financial security is underrated.
Then again, so is job satisfaction.
Well, depends where
@RobertHarvey Yeah, sorta. I like the initial approach though: Basically requests come in with a dictionary of string,string that's basically request-data and you chain together "MiddleWare" components that act based on that dictionaries data
Feb 16 at 20:51, by MichaelT
user image
9:58 PM
but then WCF was obscenely simplistic early on. Unfortunate fact of trying to generalize such a broad thing as services... you end up with something unweildy.
Need to contract the contractor start the ball rolling on a new roof.
why don't you fix it
@MichaelT ack
Fixing a roof != job a programmer can do.
Especially when its "you need a new roof"
9:59 PM
Putting up some tar paper? Ok, I might be able to do that... taking off all the shingles, taking off the plywood, replacing any damaged trusses, new insulation, new dry wall, new sofit... not something that I can do.
New roof because of a light bulb?

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