V'dibarta Bam

1:16 AM

@JonEricson @MonicaCellio ...and got 5 spam edits in the last couple hours. This is the weirdest thing ever. Okay, maybe not ever.

Monica Cellio

1:32 AM

@HodofHod oy. :-(

HodofHod

(It doesn't bother me, so I'm not kvetching. I'm only mentioning because I figure the system could use the feedback)

Monica Cellio

@HodofHod you rejected them as vandalism or spam or whatever that option is called, right? If so that should train the system -- and thanks.

HodofHod

@MonicaCellio Nope. Our fantastic community got to them before I even saw them :D

Monica Cellio

@HodofHod oh, nice! Ok, then somebody else did, most likely.

HodofHod

Yep. Interesting that each edit in review has a disclaimer on top: "Our system has identified this edit as possible spam; please review carefully"

So they're detecting it pretty well, but not blocking it.

5 6

Miscounted

Monica Cellio

1:39 AM

@HodofHod or not blocking yet; I believe human confirmation further trains the filters.

HodofHod

@MonicaCellio You're right: I just realized the first 4 edits don't have that disclaimer, but the last two do.

Monica Cellio

Hey all, I came across the following question and it seems like one that would be good to include in the purim book. It currently has one answer (+10, from Alex) which is mainly anecdotal. Is that answer sufficient? Should it be augmented (are there relevant sources with which to do so)? Would anybody who knows this area better than I do (ok, that's most of you I expect :-) ) care to take a look in the next day or so?

10

Q: Can Purim Torah be heretical?

How far can one go with Purim Torah? Can one descend into heresy, so long as it is known that one is not serious?

@HodofHod oh, nice to see!

HodofHod

@MonicaCellio I have to say, if that answer had been given today, and not by Alex, I don't know how well it would be received. Anecdotal answers are not really the best for the SE framework (as I'm sure you know). I feel like that should wait for a better answer, or perhaps the booklet should include some kind of note plus an exhortation for more answers with a link.

Monica Cellio

@HodofHod yeah, it's nearly 3 years old, and our expectations have changed. If we are lucky somebody will tackle another answer and we can include it; if not, there's always next time. I thought about this one while doing up the PT one about sending heresy to your friends.

Isaac Moses

Let's keep a high standard for what gets into the book.

That answer's acceptable, I think, just not as good as a sourced answer would be. certainly worth maintaining on our site, but not, by itself, worthy of selection for our paper publication

Monica Cellio

1:58 AM

@IsaacMoses sounds good. I agree with keeping a high standard. Thanks Isaac and @HodofHod for the feedback.

Jon Ericson

@HodofHod 6 suggested edits from 5 different IPs. Tim's out this week, but it seems like we may need to do some more work there.

HodofHod

2:18 AM

@JonEricson Yeah. I wonder what changed all of a sudden.

It's almost like they know.....

;)

HodofHod

4:26 AM

Huh. In my absence, I missed this question:

7

Q: Pedantry turning people away

In my brief existence on Miyodea I have perceived a lot of pedantry. It is my belief that this is turning people away from the website and that this may constitute a chillul hashem. For a recent example, read the comments for this question. My DNA says that the largest population with the same ...

discussion feature-request

I've actually had a friend basically tell me that this kind of thing turned him away.

msh210

@HodofHod @MonicaCellio @JonEricson I rejected a spam edit today. I didn't see any "possibly spam" heading on the page, but the "1" bubble atop the page (atop every page, that is, alerting me to the presence of a suggested edit) was maroon instead of brown. Any idea what's up with that?

HodofHod

@msh210 Recent stack change. They should always be maroon now.

30

A: Recent feature changes to Stack Exchange

February 2014 2014-02-25: The Top Bar now uses universal colors network-wide when depicting flags (orange) and suggested edits (maroon) 2014-02-25: Hot questions list at sidebar is now randomized 2014-02-25: The order and choice of sites on the top-left site switcher can now be customized 201...

msh210

@HodofHod Ah, thanks.

Seth J

@Gemini, are you sure?judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/11322/…

HodofHod

@msh210 Yeah, your rejection was one of the earlier ones. Only the last two (reviewed both times by @GershonGold and @GeminiMan) had that notice.

msh210

4:30 AM

@SethJ :-)

Monica Cellio

@HodofHod you've been here for a while. Do you think this is getting worse? Do you have thoughts on what to do about it?

HodofHod

...

I'll try to keep this user-unspecific.

Isaac Moses

@HodofHod While I don't want us to be turning anyone away unnecessarily (e.g. due to actual rudeness), some people come here expecting to find something we aren't (e.g. open discussion forum), discover that we're not that, and then leave. That's fine with me. Some such people, if they stick around and keep trying to use the site as a discussion forum, end up frustrating themselves and others continually.

HodofHod

Honestly, I haven't been that active recently, so my impressions may be slightly outdated

Isaac Moses

(Didn't mean to interrupt. Please continue answering Monica)

HodofHod

4:36 AM

@IsaacMoses I agree completely. But they can be turned away politely. One the internet no one knows ~~you're a dog~~ that you're merely striving for high standards, instead of striving for high standards and being rude.

3

Isaac Moses

@HodofHod 100%. I'm not even advocating turning such people away necessarily. Just not minding too much if they self-deport when they find that this isn't what they were expecting.

Monica Cellio

I also agree with Isaac -- we may not be what people are looking for and that's fine. (Sorry to interrupt.)

@HodofHod yes, definitely.

HodofHod

I would never say that we should never turn people away, but that (1) it shouldn't be our first response (obviously), and (2) even if it's our last, it should be done tactfully. At least, where the user hasn't shown malice.

That being said, I have noticed that there are users who, in their pursuit of high standards, may not be the most careful about how they word things (which I'm attempting to do right now, incidentally).

Isaac Moses

@HodofHod IOW, tone matters.

Monica Cellio

@HodofHod understood, and I am certainly not asking you to call out specific people (and don't want you to in public even if you were inclined to, which you aren't so that's moot).

HodofHod

4:42 AM

Now, this has happened to me, and I don't mind, because I know the community pretty well, and I'm pretty sure that most of the regulars are nice people who have absolutely no intention to offend. But at the same time, I think that if I was new user, I would be absolutely intimidated. I mean this literally. I am intimidated by SO, and I fear that there is some similar behavior here

@IsaacMoses Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes.

Yes

@GeminiMan Hi! Thanks for rejecting the spam edits on my answer :D

@MonicaCellio To be honest though, I'm not sure what to do about it. Some of the time, I see it from established users, and I'd rather not respond to their comments by essentially reprimanding them.

Monica Cellio

@HodofHod yes, I think we all want to be careful about anything that looks like that. I'm wondering more if there are things we should be trying to do to adjust the collective culture, and if so what they might be.

msh210

@HodofHod Reprimanding is not necessarily a bad thing (though of course v'lo sisa alav chet).

Monica Cellio

It may be intractable, of course. I'm wondering out loud, not driving toward anything in particular. I think it's important, and hard.

HodofHod

@msh210 True. But reprimanding may itself come across as rude and offensive, and fighting fire with fire doesn't usually work in reality.

> One the internet...

Ugh.

Monica Cellio

386 can be a handy reminder if something seems to be heating up (h/t to @Seth for coining the verb "to 386").

HodofHod

4:52 AM

So responding to these comments by saying "Hey hey hey, no need to 386 the guy," is the way to go! ;)

YEZ

@HodofHod @IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio I am jumping in for one comment, then going to sleep - Not everyone who is the "victim" of pedantry here is trying to turn it in to a discussion group. Some of them just don't realize that their question is vague or not sufficiently sourced, or worded inaccurately.

Some of them don't know how to ask the question they are trying to ask. Those people should be given advice on how to turn their input into something constructive, not scolded for not being a perfectly phrased presentation.

2

Monica Cellio

Maybe. Dunno. I've mainly seen it in chat. :-)

HodofHod

@YEZ I agree completely, but I'd change "not everyone" to "almost no one"

Isaac Moses

@YEZ Yes. I wasn't meaning to generalize. Constructive criticism, delivered nicely, is essential to what we do here

Monica Cellio

@YEZ I've found that using "I" language, like "I'm having trouble understanding what you're asking", tends to be more helpful than "you" language ("you aren't being clear" etc). The latter puts people on the defensive. I can totally admit my own failure to understand with no harm done, on the other hand.

YEZ

4:55 AM

@MonicaCellio I remember when they made us use that "strategy" in debate.

HodofHod

Even if all they know is discussion forums, they're not coming here to make it one. They need guidance and instruction, and then they can make the decision on whether this format is for them.

Monica Cellio

I'm sorry to have to drop out at this point in the conversation, but I've got to get to sleep so I won't be snoozing on the keyboard tomorrow morning. OTOH, this will be a conversational thread over time, most likely, not something we're going to solve tonight. :-)

HodofHod

@YEZ Heh. I seem to remember learning this when studying education.

YEZ

That was basically the gist of my answer to that meta-post. Gnite.

Monica Cellio

@YEZ oh, I didn't realize. (No meaningful debate experience here.)

HodofHod

4:56 AM

@MonicaCellio @YEZ Good night! :)

YEZ

@MonicaCellio I don't think there is "meaningful" debate experience.

Monica Cellio

@HodofHod TZT!

YEZ

at least not where I went to school

Gemini Man

@HodofHod YW - although if I had known it was your answer... :-)

HodofHod

@GeminiMan :D - Well, you can always go spam it yourself... ;)

Gemini Man

4:58 AM

@SethJ Am I sure about what? I'm not involved in that post, at least, not yet.

Isaac Moses

@GeminiMan I think he was referring to your claim that E"Y doesn't have an east coast :)

Seth J

@Monica :-)

Gemini Man

@IsaacMoses I don't get it.

Seth J

@Gemini, @Isaac got me.

msh210

7 hours ago, by Gemini Man

@YEZ Eretz Yisrael has no east coast!

Seth J

5:02 AM

You guys always seem to have fascinating conversations to jump in the middle of. Too bad I have no time for back-reading these days.

Gemini Man

@SethJ Please explain the connection

Seth J

Hi @hodofhod.

msh210

@GeminiMan ^ So SethJ pointed to judaism.stackexchange.com/q/11322

HodofHod

@SethJ Hello! Long time no speak :)

msh210

It's a wide land -- its east coast may be the Pacific.

Seth J

5:03 AM

@Gemini never mind. It was a (failed) joke.

@hod I hope you're well, but don't let me keep you up. I'm signing off, as well.

Gemini Man

@SethJ We Brits have never heard of the Pacific.

Isaac Moses

@GeminiMan What ever happened to "the sun never sets ..."?

Seth J

But if anyone would be so kind as to take an editorial crack at my Cholent answer, I'd be most grateful.

HodofHod

@SethJ No worries. (I am well, and hope you are too). I'll probably be up for a while anyway. Feel free to add your thoughts today, tomorrow, whenever, or even not at all. I'd love to hear them, though.

Seth J

@hod if I get a chance, Beli Neder. Tzt.

HodofHod

5:07 AM

tzt

Seth J

And to everyone else.

Gemini Man

@SethJ Although, in connection to that post, check out Gittin 7b, how Rashi draws a map of Israel. The convention of maps facing north at the top is not from the Torah.

@IsaacMoses That was a loooong time ago.

Isaac Moses

@GeminiMan And I thought us Yanks were supposed to be the ones with short memories! ;^P

TZT everyone. I gotta drop out too for now.

HodofHod

What's that phrase? "In America, 100 years is a long time, and in Europe, 100 miles is a long distance"

Daи

@HodofHod I like it

►

HodofHod

5:16 AM

Ha!

That's good.

msh210

@GeminiMan @IsaacMoses what-if.xkcd.com/48

Meta-Man

1:25 PM

0

Q: Editing titles that use Title Case

Should we be editing question titles that capitalise each word? E.g. If David Commited Adultery, How Could He Remain With Bathsheba?

discussion editing

Isaac Moses

4:27 PM

This policy was discussed again on SE podcast #55 (~44:00 - 47:30) — Isaac Moses 19 mins ago

^^ Re: Purim Torah vv

blog.stackoverflow.com/2014/02/…

Monica Cellio

4:39 PM

@IsaacMoses oh cool! Looking forward to hearing it when I get home from work.

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio It's not much different from what he said previously, in Podcast #32.

Monica Cellio

Apropos of nothing, today's XKCD is very cool, and helpful to me on our diverse-timezones network.

@IsaacMoses still, nice to know we're still on his radar, and the timing is good.

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio And he put an easy-to-remember alias for the page: xkcd.com/now

@MonicaCellio Indeed. I took advantage of that in my blog comment.

Monica Cellio

@IsaacMoses yup, which I'd typed in before linking here, but it remapped and I didn't catch that.

Jon Ericson

@HodofHod I pinged a developer because the data I look at didn't show the blocked spam. But it was a getting-a-data-to-the-report problem. Here's what's been blocked on Mi Yodeya since the beginning of the year:

Monica Cellio

4:47 PM

@IsaacMoses I don't see a blog comment from you on #55. Or were you referring to the older one (or some other blog post)?

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio just posted it.

Monica Cellio

5:10 PM

@IsaacMoses oh, I guess they moderate the comments (not seeing it yet).

Isaac Moses

5:48 PM

This post, as currently worded, appears to me to be more of an invitation to debate than a request for information. Please take a look at the guidance here, and consider editing this post to sound more like a question than an argument. — Isaac Moses 2 mins ago

^^^ In light of last night's conversation, I invite constructive criticism of this pedantic comment. Is it correct? Is its tone OK? Would you have written it differently?

HodofHod

6:06 PM

@JonEricson Interesting. I think the dataset would be more informative if it included how many were marked as spam by reviewers.

Jon Ericson

HodofHod

@JonEricson Wow!!

Jon Ericson

That's for the entire network. On Mi Yodeya it isn't very interesting because it's mostly suggested spam on your answer.

HodofHod

Lol. On a positive note, I just got another spam edit, and it already has the disclaimer on top, so the system is definitely learning.

Another thing I've noticed that thy have in common is that most include undisplayble characters. Like �

A whole bunch of 'em. The system is probably picking that up too.

@JonEricson Wait, I just realized it only says "flagged." Does that include rejected suggested edits?

Jon Ericson

@HodofHod Yes. We can break that down to the various ways the system detects spam. Flags are the obvious ones, but rejected suggested edits were the next signal we started using. (Obviously I don't want to show the exact breakdown even though the odds a spammer would use the information are very low.)

HodofHod

6:14 PM

@JonEricson Right. That data itself is very informative. I'm really excited that the system is catching so much spam before users even see it.

Those data? I was never very clear on when to pluralize for data.

Jon Ericson

@HodofHod Me too. I was a bit freaked out last night when it looked like the system had stopped working on Feb. 7.

@HodofHod I just had the same dilemma with "odds". ;-)

HodofHod

I mean, technically, data is always a plural, but I don't think many think of it that way. I feel like using plural noun markers on "data" is like the New Yorker using e-umlauts. Technically correct, but so uncommon as to make you look strange. :D

Isaac Moses

@HodofHod See also: "agenda," which is the plural of "agendum"

HodofHod

@IsaacMoses Note to self: be very wary of words ending in "a." New life goal: start finding opportunities to pluralize nouns ending in "um." Addenda, arboreta, auditoria, premia, equilibria, valia....

Isaac Moses

@HodofHod chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=fora&room=468

^^^ a rouge's gallery of linguistic pedants, caught in the act

HodofHod

6:31 PM

Excellent. You all have bright futures as writers for the New Yorker..... ;)

YEZ

8:29 PM

@IsaacMoses Any reason you didn't like my new tag? The question is much more about chazal than it is about animals, pesachim, melachim, or prophecy.

And I can't believe the tag didn't exist yet.

Isaac Moses

@YEZ It looked to me like a question about a particular statement, whose context is shown by maseches-pesachim. Did you mean to ask about Chazal more generally?

YEZ

@IsaacMoses Yes - was it something Chazal would do to make a joke in the Talmud. That particular statement being a joke is just the example I happen to know of (never came across another).

Isaac Moses

@YEZ We have talmud-gemara, mishna, rabbis, tannaim, and amoraim

YEZ

@IsaacMoses I saw some of those. Talmud may apply. Rabbis said it was historical questions about them. The others don't really apply here.

Isaac Moses

@YEZ I recommend making the question more clearly general, then, and making it clear that the Chulda statement is just one example that happened to make you curious. In doing that, you should add talmud-gemara and remove the ones I added that are specific to the Chulda example.

YEZ

8:36 PM

1

Q: Did Chazal intend to make a joke/pun?

The gemara in Pesachim (9b), in discussing the concern that a weasel may drag chometz around the house and leave it in a spot already checked, makes the following exlamation: וכי חולדה נביאה היא Is a weasel (chulda) a prophetess? It happens to be there is a prophetess who was named חול...

talmud-gemara nevua-prophecy melachim-kings-book-of maseches-pesachim humor

See the added line.

Isaac Moses

@YEZ Now, it's a question about a specific statement with a follow-on question that generalizes from there. If what you really want is the former, you're all set. If what you really want is the latter, I strongly recommend that you rearrange things to emphasize the latter over the former.

YEZ

@IsaacMoses How about if I just change the title. I'm too lazy to change the whole thing.

ok it is what it is now.

Isaac Moses

@YEZ I predict that in its present form, your question will mostly or entirely get answers that address the particular statement. I don't recommend having a title and a body that are inconsistent.

YEZ

@IsaacMoses As long as they addressthe latter, I don't really mind if they address the former. Although I can't imagine an answer that would address the former without the latter.

I mean, who is going to tell me "Chazal loved making jokes, but that one was coincidence"

Isaac Moses

@YEZ I attempted an edit that makes the general question more prominent and is consistent with your intentions

HodofHod

9:53 PM

@IsaacMoses Did you see a disclaimer on that spam edit? Cuz I didn't.

Isaac Moses

10:13 PM

@HodofHod Sorry; wasn't paying attention.

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