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3:41 AM
@msh210 That just asks about only Rishonim's opinions. This asks about when it happened, period. In fact, that question is subsumed under this, no? Shouldn't that one be closed as a dupe? — Double AA 5 hours ago
2 hours later…
5:54 AM
Q: Pedantry turning people away

Clint EastwoodIn my brief existence on Miyodea I have perceived a lot of pedantry. It is my belief that this is turning people away from the website and that this may constitute a chillul hashem. For a recent example, read the comments for this question. My DNA says that the largest population with the same ...

11 hours later…
4:43 PM
@msh210 I don't think you are nogea badavar as rep points are pointless (particularly for a mod) so you have nothing to gain or lose. — Double AA 13 hours ago
@msh210 @DoubleAA, if someone finds an answer to my question years hence, I'll get pinged if the answer's posted to my question but not if it's posted only to the other. Hence, I'm nogea badavar.
@YEZ, re hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/8273, note hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/u/3457 -- specifically, the box near the upper-right ("BH originally...").
5:22 PM
Mods, could you please merge into ?
5:48 PM
@IsaacMoses I think proper procedure in that case is to retag. My understanding (I may be wrong) is that merging is for larger scale things. (Not that anything bad would happen in this case; it's probably a rule for larger load sites, but just FYI.)
Jay Hanlon on February 13, 2014


Two weeks ago, we announced the public launch of Stack Overflow in Portuguese, our first-ever non-English Stack Overflow community. Which raises one very obvious question:

Have we lost our minds?

Wasn’t the whole point of Stack Overflow to aggregate as much developer knowledge as possible in one place? To get all the potential solutions together, and provide one canonical set of answers?

We are aware that, “Let’s all try speaking different languages!” hasn’t always worked out for the best. …

@msh210 By the the Favorite mechanism should be working correctly, I imagine. :)
Does anyone else want to venture a non-binding opinion on this? @IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio @Meta-Man etc.
6:15 PM
@DoubleAA OK; thanks. Done. Just wanted to avoid unnecessary bounce.
7:09 PM
@IsaacMoses What is nhalacha?
@msh210 You were making sure I saw your comment there? It was for that reason I didn't quote any midrashic interpretations.
7:34 PM
@GeminiMan Typo, I assume. But now that you mention it ...
- The laws of putting in the upside-down 'נ's in the Sefer Torah in Beha'alotecha?
8:02 PM
@IsaacMoses If it's a typo why not delete the tag?
@GeminiMan By removing it from the only post it was on, I effectively did that. The server processes will eventually remove it from the tag list because it's empty
8:29 PM
@DoubleAA :-)
@YEZ Yes, since it was deleted.
@IsaacMoses Often, when retagging, I start typing in the tag box (too soon for the JS to catch up, I guess, or something) and the first one or two characters I type wind up at the start of the line rather than at its end, so things like nhalacha happen (if halacha was already there and I was adding something that starts with an n). I don't know whether that's what happened this time. (I don't even know what question was tagged nhalacha.)
Usually I'll catch it because the tag I'm typing will appear without its first one or two letters and I'll realize that they're at the start of the line.
9:09 PM
@msh210 Since it's impossible for other people to respond to that second link, I'd prefer if you'd link to some other place. For instance:
A: Would anyone be interested in helping out Biblical Hermeneutics?

Monica CellioAt Jon's request, I am expanding a comment into an answer. Summary I do not recommend this site for Jews now because of the religious nature of the site. The presence of my answers there is problematic enough that I made a plea for their removal; I believe the community team gave my request th...

@DoubleAA Re your comment here: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/35497/… - it reminds me of the time in Britain after a very bad school massacre in Scotland, some people wanted to ban certain guns. Prince Philip, the Queen's husband, commented "and so if someone would kill someone with a cricket bat, we should should ban all cricket bats?!".
@JonEricson I see I need to update that post. The most-current information is on the page that @msh210 linked, but I will endeavor to update this meta post. Might not be until after Shabbat, though.
Also, I assume @msh210's link was an FYI. No there's no place to attach discussion there, but it's not clear you'd want the discussion on that site anyway. That link has the most-current info that's been published. I will endeavor to make the MY side more timely.
@Mods as one might expect given the title and nature of the question, the comment thread on judaism.stackexchange.com/q/35497/2 is becoming a debate-fest
9:28 PM
@IsaacMoses thanks. I'm about to delete all comments other than the ones with links to other resources.
@MonicaCellio Thanks for your moderation
@MonicaCellio sorry, I just post-moderation added a comment. you could delete it.
@MonicaCellio and to preserve the points being made, is it possible to move the comments to a chat instead of deleting them? I don't know the policy on these things.
@YEZ simultaneous; you couldn't have known. I'll leeave it for a few minutes so it gets to his inbox, then delete.
@YEZ I considered that but it would be a tedious manual process (there's no "move all this to chat" button, alas). Mods can still access the deleted comments if it seems useful to do that later, but my main goal was to get that off the public site.
@YEZ and gone now. Thanks for understanding.
It's a little unfair (since he's implicitly suggesting causation and talking about fundamentals), it'd be a bit flip, and it'd certainly be taken as condescending, so I won't put this as a comment there, but
9:50 PM
@IsaacMoses He'd deserve it.
@YEZ Dessert service is not my job
Q: Provide a tool for moderators to migrate comments to chat

user149432One issue we have on Programmers.SE is that people like to have extended discussions in comments on answers and questions. Try as we might to delete long comment chains and educate them about chat (example 1, example 2, example 3, example 4, MSO example), our chat room sits relatively empty and ...

@MonicaCellio Other than upvoting the suggestion, what's the most effective way to have this acted upon?
@YEZ not sure, unfortunately. Feature requests are kind of opaque to me. If there's anything that hasn't already been said in comments that you think is relevant you could add a comment, I guess.
@JonEricson any advice on YEZ's question about advancing a feature request? There's already a highly-upvoted MSO post.
@MonicaCellio As it happens, this is one of the first feature requests I pitched last fall. I think it's a good idea, but it has all sorts of weird edge cases.
For instance, what happens if one or more of the commenters doesn't have enough reputation for chat?
10:03 PM
@MonicaCellio I noticed lots of people added "nudge" comments. Maybe we should start a nudging campaign on that post :)
@JonEricson As someone commented in that post, it wouldn't be worse than when they get deleted.
The more we dug into the issue the harder it was to see an implementation path.
@YEZ True. But then only one side of the conversation can continue. That seems rather unfair.
@MonicaCellio One of the issues is that there are far more feature requests than there is capacity to implement them. The more complete the request and the more pressing the need, the more likely we can act on it.
@JonEricson even if not all participants can chat (which I think can happen now with the "migrate two people's comments only" auto-link, right?), a single button for "move all of these comments to a new chat room and link it" would be an improvement on either manually moving (same problem with people not having rep to chat) or deletion (nobody can see them).
@JonEricson sure, SE doesn't have infinite developers but its users have near-infinite needs; I get that. :-)
@MonicaCellio Let me see if I can find my notes on this...
@JonEricson Maybe this chat room isn't the place for this (ironic, eh?) but what about creating a chatroom that noone can post to, just for preserving the conversation?
@YEZ So there's a fundamental philosophy problem with that. Some sites (SO in particular) regard comments as ephemeral. I have a very highly upvoted meta post that suggests removing most comments after a certain number of days. That feature request was stalled out too because other sites see comments as important parts of the Q&A. (MathOverflow stands out here.)
We need better tools to moderate comments than simple deletion, but we don't want to elevate comments too much either.
@MonicaCellio It would also help if everyone at SE agreed with me. ;-)
10:14 PM
And often it's sufficient to stash them for just a few days, but we still want to get them off of the main site.
@JonEricson You could make the chat room temporary for the same price as making comments temporary.
@JonEricson I don't understand. (Though I'm catching up on backread and responding to what you wrote here before I read anything since.) (a) Why is it impossible for people to reply to my link just as you just did? (b) Why shouldn't I link there?
@IsaacMoses Desert. (As in "just deserts".) (As you probably know, but just in case.)
@msh210 You may, of course, link there if you like. But if a person were to disagree with some of the statements made there (and that's not hypothetical) there's no way to register disagreement there. As I said (as someone who is concerned about the lack of a Jewish voice on BH), that the discussion be focused somewhere more open to discussion.
@JonEricson what would you like to have linked from there to support discussion? Yeah, profiles don't support comments, but meta posts (several of which are linked there already) do. Further editing is possible. (And do note that the wording there was softened as a gesture of goodwill.)
@JonEricson Right, but I wasn't trying to link to a question or issue -- I was trying to link to an opinion and some backstory, concisely formatted and self-sufficient*, so the user'd know that the issue exists and could then look into it further before deciding whether to avoid posting on BH.
* "Self-sufficient" is not the word I mean. I can't think of the word. I mean "all in one place, not really requiring reading other texts also to get a complete story".
10:30 PM
@msh210 self-contained?
Linking to meta.BH would require linking to more than one post (IIRC).
@MonicaCellio Thank you!
Sheesh. My brain sometimes.
@msh210 I have similar problems sometimes. Totally understood.
@msh210 I don't actually think it
(BTW that text required some careful crafting to get the payload into the first 100 characters for usercard hover.)
's very helpful to link to meta.BH at all. As I understand it, the issue is teaching Torah to gentiles.
10:33 PM
@JonEricson Eh. I do that on MY.
"Teaching Torah" isn't really a concept on BH.
Or rather, it's just one of many possible approaches.
@msh210 The issue here is that to people on BH, that isn't the "complete story", and since it's not a page where they could comment or contribute or even see how many people weighed in it just feels wrong. And I agree linking to BH meta is a bad idea / too messy. I actually suggest linking to this post on Mi Yodea or the meta one above.
@JonEricson I think the best explanation on BH of the problem is the question here: meta.hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/786/…
It's not "neutral" per se but I think that's fine, either one is a place where somebody following the link can see a whole community's involvement in the issue.
@Caleb the profile links to several relevant posts (on both sites). If you have suggestions for improvements, feel free to share them via email.
10:40 PM
@MonicaCellio I don't think what you do or don't say in there is a problem (although I did appreciate the gesture to soften it up a bit last week). That is your space for your voice and I wouldn't want to even pretend the box there was supposed to be neutral or balanced or anything. That's not what it's there for. But that's why if feels like the wrong place to send people new to the issue to consider the ramifications.
@Caleb The comment was on one person's post, addressed to that person. It was for his information. It was related to the post (hence I posted it there, though the relationship was, I admit, tenuous, so I don't blamer whoever deleted it), but wasn't meant for BHers in general.
@Caleb that MY post is somewhat deprecated by this one.
Esp if those people are coming from this chat room anyway. Link them to MY somewhere.
@MonicaCellio But that's a very long page.
@msh210 indeed. I was just pointing out to Jon that there was a richer explanation of the problem than "teaching torah to gentiles" if he wanted to better understand the issues. I didn't mean you should have linked it directly.
10:42 PM
@Caleb I think anyone being sent there realizes it's one person's POV, though.
@msh210 I was the deleter there, not that it matters. I did give you a heads up so you could do it here, and what you do here is your business. If you want I'll try to explain why I disagree with your analysis, but that's only if you request me to do so, I'm not here to force anything on you.
@Caleb Yes, thanks for the heads-up.
@Caleb I'd be curious to know.
@Caleb The meta.J post linked above is a good one. I could link there instead. It has very similar content, though, to the userpage I linked to.
10:57 PM
Lets recast all the characters then. I'm trying to get at the principle of the thing because in _this_ case there are mitigating factors that seem to make it okay, but the same format would not be okay if the blanks were filled in differently.
Say we're on SO and user X has just rage quit after a dispute with mod Z. They leave something not-warm-and-fuzzy in their profile and leave. Now user Y comes along and starts posting comments everywhere mod Z closes anything saying "this closure might not be legit, they are just after users, see what happened to user X (link to profile)".
@msh210 As for posting that on BH, my main concern is that it was neither relevant to the content of the post OR to most of the site users, if was only relevant to the user because you knew they were a member of this community as well. Since they had arrived there from this chat room, this chat room seems like a far more relevant place to bring up an issue that is relevant to them as a person and to this community but not to a secular audience on BH.
@msh210 That's fine. It's not the specific content I was concerned about. That's not the issue.
@Caleb Very well. (And I'm still trying to make sense of your chat post before the one I'm here responding to.)
@msh210 Sorry that might have made things muddier rather than clearer.
@MonicaCellio Deprecated? Maybe it needs another answer. It seems (as best I can tell as an outsider) to be a valid question for your main site and the only one of it's kind. If this really is an issue that your faith has something to speak to, I would be interested in seeing it answered in that context without the particulars of your case, just the principles of your faith on which any similar case would rest.
The meta one can give your specific experiences on direct response to the call for participants, but maybe the main site could examine the principles a little farther.
@msh210 No problem, I'm actually going to call it a night. If I've just stuck my foot in my mouth or made a mess of things you can inform me of my folly at your leisure.
@Caleb I should have said "somewhat deprecated for your purposes", sorry. It's clearly not entirely or it wouldn't still be open. But as a destination for someone trying to assess the current situation, it doesn't tell the whole story -- it is premised on something that is now disputed.
And I'd love to have more answers to that one and most especially its successor, which so far has only a poor partial answer (mine).
11:09 PM
@Caleb I'd say my answer to the first question is very much non-expert. I answered in the hope of getting a better answer from someone who knows what they are about.
I suspect that's because people consider it something of a no-brainer, but I'd like to see a better-fleshed-out answer.
Oh and @Caleb I assume you didn't mean to imply that there was a rage-quit here. You and Jon and msh210 know there wasn't, but there are other readers here.
@MonicaCellio I think I made that clear in my scenarios that your case was NOT that.
@Caleb ok. It was a little hard for me to tell, so thanks for clarifying.
Since it's become a topic of conversation and (as I said to @Caleb)) the original question doesn't quite capture the current state, I've edited this question mildly to put the then-assumption about religious stance into the question. (And I linked to the related question.) I don't believe I've changed the question in a way that affects the answer or otherwise does damage, but if anybody thinks otherwise, please let me know.
If my aspirations have exceeded my editing abilities I'd like to address any deficiencies.

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