TRPG General Chat

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:00

the faramir is going to take them to gondor storyline felt horribly contrived and just as a way to make the frodo and sam plot have more stuff to balance out everything going on with the rest of the fellowship

BESW

As for Arwen... well, she was as out of place as Tom would've been.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw I feel like beorn, that tom, the barrowdowns, and the forest are the strongest link to the farie in the story

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Oh, you mean all the things they cut entirely or made totally unrecognisable?

lisardggY

@BESW Exactly what I was trying to phrase.

@JoshuaAslanSmith I agree. However, as that link to faerie is mostly irrelevant to the rest of the book, it's easy to cut it out.

Joshua Aslan Smith

arwen felt really cheap in that she does 1 thing really in FOTR, is somehow a spellcaster (vs it being elrond and gandalf) which they then undo by having her be sad love interest in flashbacks and visions in TT when the real female heroin in TT and in ROTK is there

I agree, its this terrible effect where jackson thinks he's the bee's knee's and is in some way influenced by the culture created in reaction to the books since their publishing

Alex P

07:03

@JoshuaAslanSmith I think it's not unfair to say that Jackson is sorta reinterpreting Lord of the Rings through a bit of a D&D lens. Just because that's the wider geeky culture he's working from. All the battles and banter and such.

DMunchkin

Off to hack some codes. Ttyl, people. :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

though one of the positive changes is the way he portrayed borimir's redemption in death (especially in the EE of FOTR)

Alex P

The LOTR films are kinda, I dunno, artless.

They're fairly straightforward and the parts that I really found engaging were largely just moments of narration or panning scenery set to kinda-sad music.

Joshua Aslan Smith

there are moments where it achieves something close to the books, the gandalf conversation in moria about having to live the life we have and make the best of it for everyone for example

but yes it largely loses the spiritual and religious nature of the original work in favor of hacking up orcs and silly wizard battles

Alex P

I'm not a particular fan of the books, either. And I think I'm actively an un-fan of the "legendarium."

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:06

the contrast between the saruman and gandalf confrontation in the films vs. the animated LOTR movie is so stark to me

Alex P

Whatever thing it was that Tolkien liked most about Beowulf, it doesn't seem to really make it into his own stuff.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@alexp I think despite tolkien not writing an allegory in the sense that CS lewis's works are allegory, that the appeal of tolkien depends upon your religious and philosophical views

Im not a crazy fan boy though

its fine that you dislike it and like something else more

the combo of being burned on star wars and my disgust at gamer (video games) community at large means Ill never harsh on someone for liking what they like.

Alex P

I harsh on people for how they like stuff all the time, though.

People get really wrapped up in media consumption as identity, for instance. Which is messed up and maladaptive, as far as I'm concerned.

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh I harseh that

fanboyism is different from liking a thing

lisardggY

Indeed. I was a relatively rabid Tolkienist in my youth and still enjoy reading and writing about the legendarium, but I really don't see why anyone else has to.

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:13

why does this question exist!?!?!

1

Q: 3.5 D&D Create Water Spell, used for torture?

I was wondering, if I am able to cast Create Water, can I use it to effectively waterboard someone? Like tie them to a chair, and if they won't talk, create water in their mouth! If I'm 20th level, 40 gallons would be horrible! Or, we capture a demon, I do this water board thing, he still won't t...

torture questions and discussions are near the top of my list of everything thats wrong with D&D and things that give the hobby a black mark to this day

I cant justify a way to vote to close it though per our guidelines

BESW

Read the OP's comments on the question and the answer, then vote to close as unclear.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw good point

lisardggY

@JoshuaAslanSmith You can always downvote (which you did). You don't need a better reason than "I don't want to see this sort of question on the site".

Joshua Aslan Smith

@lisardggY good point

anyone else crazy about The Witcher series?

thats the only fantasy series since LOTR of quality that Ive liked

BESW

@Samuraisoulification Stack Exchange isn't a good fit for open discussion questions; you're basically asking for any creative use of the spell that we can think of. That means every answer is equally correct and it invites debate and discussion (like the "but what about?" comment you gave to the answer below), which isn't what Stack Exchange is for. You would have more success with this question in a standard RPG forum. — BESW 2 mins ago

@JoshuaAslanSmith Your chat link is to the general chat frontpage, not any particular chat.

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:20

@samuraisoulification I think its a bad fit beyond the mechanical requirements BESW and BrainS mention because the nature of the topic. While many players, especially of 3.5 in my experience, take torture for granted as part of the game/genre its a black mark on the hobby that drives negative press, stereotypes, and actively repels possible new members to the hobby

@besw fixed it thanks

Samuraisoulification

I made it here!

BESW

@Samuraisoulification Welcome!

Samuraisoulification

Thanks!

BESW

Sorry about the abrupt closure of your question. There are a lot of RPG forums out there, and SE tries to meet a different need of the RPG community.

Samuraisoulification

I guess whatI wanted was an answer to the question, but then I thought that maybe this spell has even cooler uses I wanted to know?

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:22

enworld or rpg.net could work

Samuraisoulification

I understand, I'm an active member of stack overflow

lisardggY

@Samuraisoulification My last character used Create Water quite extensively, though not for anything so... blunt.

Samuraisoulification

I like how stack exchange sites handle this stuff more than forums I guess. :P

I see

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Samuraisoulification Ultimately that sort of thing is at the discretion of your GM. 3.5 has a way of mixing simulationism with its mechanics and subsystems interacting strangely

Samuraisoulification

I also never found rules for torture so I guess I was curious too

lisardggY

07:23

I used it to create mud for circumstantial modifiers. Tossed them on a fire elemental to weaken it. Lots of cool stuff. Versatile.

Samuraisoulification

Ah! Nice

BESW

@Samuraisoulification The Book of Vile Darkness has a bit on torture, if you want official stuff.

Samuraisoulification

If you like create mud... try this! :P petrify someone. Then use Stone to Mud, create water around the mud, purify the water, then drink your victim.

lisardggY

@Samuraisoulification If there were rules for torture, that could be seen as endorsement of torture. D&D encourages the murderhobo lifestyle as it is. I don't think it needs to encourage sadistic murderhoboness.

Samuraisoulification

I see

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:24

intimidate is a skill that is believed to have an equivalence with torture

this is not supported officially however

BESW

But like @JoshuaAslanSmith says, torture and similar topics are not popular on this site. There aren't rules against it, but the population will likely downvote it into obscurity.

Samuraisoulification

I'm actually playing a NG druid who is on board with good, exalted stuff and all, but as the player, I got curious

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Samuraisoulification and we welcome your questions. Im rather okay discussing this in chat (even though thats searchable from google) because its not on the front page

Samuraisoulification

It's good to know this stuff.

YEah

BESW

(A year or so ago we had a series of questions on rape and racism which made many people grumpy.)

Samuraisoulification

07:25

Really? I feel racism is ingrained into D&D?

Favored Enemy is like the idea of racism

Orcs killed my family/grove/whatever

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol Ive never felt that but my first edition was also 4th

Samuraisoulification

I hate them

something like that

Joshua Aslan Smith

I feel like tribalism is ingrained in D&D, but not overt racism per say

Samuraisoulification

I mean, I feel like tribalism is a subset of racism

lisardggY

@Samuraisoulification Racism, or rather racial essentialism, is a common trope in high fantasy, and in D&D-like games as well.

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:27

races trust their own kind above others and mostly live in mono culture settlements

Samuraisoulification

maybe ignorant racism

YEah but think like halflings vs giants?

good outsiders vs evil ones

I think even if it's not quite a race issue, it's the same ideas at work

Joshua Aslan Smith

theres a difference between trusting and sticking to what you know (especially in a world like D&D) and actively hating/formenting hate and violence against a specific type of people based on their race

Alex P

It's woven into the fabric of the setting, though. E.g. just calling different species of sentient humanoids "races."

BESW

Also it's easier to deal with fantastic bigotry in a detached, "Let's explore this concept" way than it is when actual real-world prejudice is brought into play.

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh man I can see why that question riled things up

Alex P

07:29

Ditto depicting them as racial monocultures with a lot of cultural traits baked into their physical stats.

Samuraisoulification

I mean my character, just got a wish spell(through an outsider), and I'm playing the swift hunter varient so I get favored enemies, and I hate orcs cause they destroyed my grove. I wished them(as a exalted good character) to only remove good orcs, (though like wish spells often do, this backfired)

doppelgreener

There's a distinction to be drawn here: prejudice against different creatures or something like that is ingrained into D&D: different things are often the enemy.

Racism is not. Racism is a particular expression of that, limited to particular human ethnicities.

Samuraisoulification

YEah, but I feel it's the same ideas

But I guess it's up to the player to keep those ideas in game

Joshua Aslan Smith

Im with @JonathanHobbs they seem similar on the surface but are very different

Samuraisoulification

And this is the most interesting convo i've had in a long time! :P

doppelgreener

07:31

Well, yes, but racism is one expression of that category, alongside sexism, classism, etc

Samuraisoulification

Yeah

All these isms

BESW

D&D and similar games run on old and often objectionable tropes, but they leverage them for a very specific purpose: guiltless violence. The notion of objective evil is inherent in, say, 3.5, so that there are entire swathes of society who are objectively and unquestionably threats to the innocent.

doppelgreener

That's why it looks similar. All of those are expressions of fear and hate of things that are different.

Homophobia and transphobia, too.

Samuraisoulification

guiltless violence is killing my character though, our GM rules that NPC's die at 0 not -10, my NG exalted druid wants to save all the NPC's

doppelgreener

D&D's version is that the uncivilised races are the enemies.

Samuraisoulification

07:32

Yeah

BESW

It's an attractively simplistic worldview, and it finds expression in a system that is all about simple abstractions of reality.

Joshua Aslan Smith

man jadasc writes such good answers

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs Well, fantasy quite often involves essentialized depictions of human cultures ("This is the Asian culture, wheee!") or, in the case of some older stuff especially, use fantasy people as stand-ins for real-world racial beliefs.

doppelgreener

That could be called racism because they are races, but it's not human racism exactly (just very similar).

Samuraisoulification

Yeah, I love that yeah it's actually kind of cool.

Kind of off topic, can hatred be incorporated into exalted stuff? Like a druid HATES anytthing that hurts nature?

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:34

How closely a race in a game matches a genetic type or cultural group in real life is always up for debate. Its something very hard to prove

@Samuraisoulification word you are looking for is Piety

BESW

@Samuraisoulification Welcome to rpg.se chat! When we're not making jokes about badgers or debating Doctor Who canon, we explore the psychosocial implications of My Little Pony.

Samuraisoulification

Lol

Joshua Aslan Smith

but just war is another good term

Alex P

@JoshuaAslanSmith I think that's kind of the wrong question. An author can very clearly channel racist attitudes in writing (or "worldbuilding") without making characters direct stand-ins for real-world racial groups, for instance.

Joshua Aslan Smith

virtuous hate is an ancient Iidea

Samuraisoulification

07:36

Really? I'll have to look into that!

BESW

If you delve too deeply (read: very much at all) into the "exalted" stuff 3.5 offers, you quickly run into the fundamental flaws in the D&D alignment system.

Alex P

@BESW LOLRAVAGES

Joshua Aslan Smith

@alexp thats a good point, I wasnt saying its always that, I mean the witcher series has racism as a them but Andrjew's elves and dwarves et al. dont match any one race and are reinterpretations of old tropes

doppelgreener

.... I'm going to have to ask about this exalted stuff in a few minutes when I'm home and on a PC.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Samuraisoulification I would look up Aristotle ethics or virtue ethics. Basically the idea that moderation is where true virtue lies and at either end, in the extremes, lurks vice. Eastern cultures have a similar idea

Alex P

07:37

@JonathanHobbs It's hilarious and terrible.

Joshua Aslan Smith

for example Batman displays virtuous hate towards criminals

Samuraisoulification

Yeah, I mean, my character has kind of flat out attacked shit for not being nice to nature, like a black dragon destroying a forest, he was giving a speach and I cast spliterbolt in the middle of it cause he was cool with me.

Yeah

BESW

Alignment in D&D 3.5 is objective and indisputable (it grants spells, creates planes, and can be measured), but its depiction is impossibly inconsistent between authors and even within a single D&D article.

lisardggY

I've found that despite its cosmological significance, alignments can be glossed over rather easily.

Joshua Aslan Smith

He does not hate them so much that he is driven toward unyielding rage and bloodlust (like Azbats or Bane) but is also not so forgiving that he is willing to let them off. He walks the middle by seeking to punish the guilty while allowing them a chance to reform

Samuraisoulification

07:39

I feel like good and hatred are hard to intermingle, but within the idea of EXALTEd I also feel like subjective good shouldn't exist, like there should bea concrete set of rules

BESW

Because it is both inarguably concrete and definable in-universe, but the material we're given makes it impossible to actually define it, people try to equate an RPG's alignment mechanic with their own real-world beliefs about morality.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Samuraisoulification is it wrong to hate evil? Im asking both in the game and in real life. think about it.

BESW

Sadly it's impossible to map the four-alignment axis to real-world morality paradigms in any useful way, but it's easy to think you've managed to do it... until challenged. And then it's not a game-mechanic debate, it's a challenge to your personal ethics and morality.

Samuraisoulification

I agree, though I feel the only easy mapping would be real world politicians to LE

lol

I'm not sure

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith I cannot answer that question in real life because I do not believe in the existence of evil as a tangible concept.

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:41

@besw yes I looked at a probably really lame wiki article when you discussed our faith

Samuraisoulification

@Joshua The exalted book says that a real good character believes in redemption for all creatures even demons

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Samuraisoulification so he won't kill them if avoidable, but that doesn't mean he can't hate the evil they do

"hate the sin, not the sinner"

lisardggY

@BESW Are you writing Lord_Gareth's alignment Q&A for him, bit by bit? :)

Samuraisoulification

Though I"m not sure if a exalted character can't get caught up in the moment, and do something from hate

Even if it's in the interest of good

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Samuraisoulification that also allows the gm to put the player in a position where its a choice between killing an evil creature to save innocents or letting them die in the hopes of redeeming the creature

BESW

07:42

@JoshuaAslanSmith The Wikipedia stuff is generally accurate, although vandalism is always a possibility. The bit with having a photo of Bahá'u'lláh is awkward.

Alex P

@Samuraisoulification The exalted book also says poison is evil (for no real reason) but then gives you special magic good-guy poison-diseases that physically torture bad guys much harder than most poisons ever could. It's an insane mess.

lisardggY

@Samuraisoulification This reduces the concept of "good" to a very strict path, which is a pain for PCs because you don't want your alignment determining your every action.

Samuraisoulification

I'm really unsure because my character is going through a HUGE point of growth

I do though, I think it's interesting

BESW

@Samuraisoulification Urrgh. If you want personal growth in a D&D 3.5 system, ignore the alignment rules as much as possible...

Samuraisoulification

We're in a trap room that requires evil to get out? I won't help

I mean, I used an item that let me wish orcs away, and save a continent, it worked, but the way they went away was demons coming down, killing them, and the populace

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:44

@Samuraisoulification to put this in real life perspective I think I'm a sinner, that I need redemption, that I commit evil in my life and that the world is filled with evil deeds and from a societal perspective, unredeemable people. (Though I do think they can be redeemed through god's will)

BESW

@Samuraisoulification There's a difference between alignment guiding your choices, saying what your instinctive reaction to a given situation might be, and alignment being a straitjacket that keeps your character from even considering certain options or ever being tempted to take them.

Samuraisoulification

Well our last quest makes my character question everything

My animal companion was killed

we lost our magic items due to the friend of the dragon I tried to kill

Joshua Aslan Smith

Ive had lots of discussions about just violence with people because I live in the states and now have a concealed carry permit for a pistol I own. Some would argue me killing someone in defense of myself or to help others is evil itself but I see it as a justified action

BESW

In order for D&D's alignment to justify things like killing evil orcs, it must be a straitjacket. But in order for paladins to fall and black dragons to redeem themselves, it must be a guideline.

2

Samuraisoulification

I got the orcccs gone and summon hundreds of demons

My character is an emotional wreck

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:46

@besw which works out to Drittz do'rden being like the only good drow

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Bahá'í law forbids killing in self-defence, but allows lethal force (if necessary) in the defence of others.

lisardggY

The only way I can actually see alignments being played properly is with a Moorcock-like metaphysics. "Alignments" are more cosomological factions. There's nothing preventing a worshipper of an "evil" deity from doing good, and the only risk to his alignment is angering his patrons.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@BESW interesting

Samuraisoulification

Yeah, Alignment, is really cool (I'm in a RP heavy campaign)

Me and our SUPER greedy CN rogue are always at each other's throat

BESW

@lisardggY I've heard about that being done with D&D 3.5, and I think it could be the best hack I've ever heard (since you can't actually rip the dumb system out entirely).

lisardggY

07:48

@Samuraisoulification And having established his greediness and other personality features, does he really need a concrete "CN" written on his character sheet?

Joshua Aslan Smith

I feel my views are theologically sound but also that being a presbyterian (but not main line presbyterian; PCA based out of philly) are out of step a fair bit of the more liberal christianity in america

Samuraisoulification

His level of greed I think needs a SCE

BESW

@Samuraisoulification I prefer systems which define goals and priorities and relationships to drive role-playing.

Samuraisoulification

Super Chaotic

Evil character

He steals life savings from towns during town meetings!

Joshua Aslan Smith

Agreeed, I love that 4e hand waves alignment away as fluff (EXCEPT FOR 1 CLASS because the designers weren't thinking)

BESW

07:49

@JoshuaAslanSmith Wait, which class?

lisardggY

@Samuraisoulification Why can't he just be... you know... him? Why do you need alignment for that?

Joshua Aslan Smith

Blackguard, essentials paladin class that is a striker

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Oh, right. The latter-day Essentials classes felt more like vanity projects.

Alex P

That's really the thing... Alignment can't actually determine whether your character is a hero. Or whether we as the audience like your character.

Samuraisoulification

My character goes around donating all his gold, helping the poor, and he goes and steals my donated gold.

I agree alignment doesn't work

But in a RP setting it helps set guidelines on how your character should act

BESW

07:51

@Samuraisoulification There are so many other systems which do exactly that, better.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@BESW its actually a great class, but RAW you can only be chaotic evil, evil or unaligned. You get a choice between 2 class features for damage and the better one requires evil or chaotic evil whereas the less good one lets you be unaligned

Samuraisoulification

Can you give some examples? I think my DM would accommodate since alignment is becoming a huge issue now.

lisardggY

@Samuraisoulification Why do you need RP guidelines necessarily on a moral compass?

Samuraisoulification

I always thought 3.5 paladin was dumb, I thought you should have to be same alingment as your god, and get the abilities based off that

I think that's a huge part of it

lisardggY

In the old World of Darkness games, characters had two attributes, "Nature" and "Demeanor".

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:52

The One Ring: Adventures over the Edge of the Wild

The One Ring is a tabletop role-playing game published by Cubicle 7. It is set in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth, in the time between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Since its release, a number of other materials have been published, with more on the way. Supplements #"Lore-master's Screen and Lake-town Sourcebook" #"Tales of Wilderland" #"The Heart of the Wild" External links * [http://www.cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/the-one-ring/ Official website] References

BESW

Fate's high concept and trouble, White Wolf's... I can't remember what it's called, but it's basically saying "This is how I think of myself," like "I help the unfortunate" and "This is how I act on what I am," like "I teach people."

Joshua Aslan Smith

This models corruptions and redemption quite well

Samuraisoulification

he does good if the party is pissed, or bad if he can get away with it

He's too varried

BESW

Temple of the Flying Pilgrims has "how I help people" and "how I get in trouble" as its primary stats.

lisardggY

You chose archetypes that described your character, one the inner you (nature) and one how you act (demeanor).

Alex P

07:53

@Samuraisoulification Consider just describing your perosnality in a few keywords. Even without mechanics attached to it. Writing something like "Pragmatic" or "Jaded" or "Gloryhound" on a character sheet.

lisardggY

Here's a list of some possible archetypes in a badly laid out HTML page: coven.divarex.com/natdem.htm

Samuraisoulification

I did, I don't think he did, we might have to change that

That page hurts the web dev in me

lisardggY

This one is marginally less terrible: deathquaker.org/gaming/archetypes.html

BESW

In Fate, characters are defined by a set of short, pithy phrases that describe their attitudes, talents, possessions, and/or relationships.

lisardggY

The point is, people's personalities can't be easily encapsulated on a simple 3x3 matrix. There are too many nuances.

If your alignment matrix is too vague, you're not actually saying anything with it. If it's too strict, you're limiting your characters and creating stereotypes.

Samuraisoulification

07:55

I agree that all characters should act a bit outside the 3x3 sometimes but should be in it most of the time

BESW

When those phrases would be advantageous for the situation, the character can spend game currency to do better. When the phrases complicate the situation, the character can gain currency to make those complications happen.

lisardggY

Archetypes, though, are a flexible way to describe yourself in a way that says something to other players, gives you something to fall back and rely on when learning your own character, but is open-ended.

Alex P

@Samuraisoulification Okay, but what does "Good" even mean half the time? In the context of a game where you fight stuff all the time and most of that stuff is purposefully justified as "acceptable targets."

doppelgreener

2

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs I remember that picture! Did I show you that picture?

doppelgreener

07:56

can we just take a moment to appreciate the fact that the Kender race probably should have been the most evil race in the game but isn't because of writer fiat?

BESW

Stories lack personal drama and turn into brainless action pulp if we know how characters are going to respond to any given situation.

doppelgreener

@AlexP Probably! I've seen it here before

Joshua Aslan Smith

@JonathanHobbs game set and match you just won 1 internet

Samuraisoulification

But if we can't expect a character to act in a certain way, then how do we incorporate them into a party?

Alex P

@lisardggY Also the nice thing about archetypes or Fate-like descriptors is that it's actually enjoyable to see them change over time. You've got this little thing on your character sheet showing you how your personality is growing. Alignment change tends to not be as interesting.

Joshua Aslan Smith

07:57

@JonathanHobbs I feel like they are more evil because of that writer fiat, the fact that the kender are protected for their "innocence" as a sign from the gods or whatever makes their dickish behaviour all the worse

Samuraisoulification

No one wants to take someone into the town who's hobby is ruining lives

BESW

@Samuraisoulification Start with Making the Tough Decisions.

doppelgreener

In a world where acts are objectively evil - creating undead is evil no matter what your intentions are, just because evil is a fundamental objective property of that act by universal law - Kender are innocent for being just pure evil.

Samuraisoulification

Lots of great reading material so far. :P

BESW

The article is written in the 3.5 viewpoint, so it's rather narrow, but it's a good start on the right path.

Alex P

07:59

@Samuraisoulification On the level of the gaming group or on the level of the characters in the fiction?

BESW

Think about real life.

Samuraisoulification

In the fiction

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