The Whiteboard - 2013-11-26 (page 3 of 4)

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7:00 PM

@Ampt This is also pretty farcical as far as arguements go, an employees right to use allotted PTO is fairly well protected and in most cases companies don't like tussling with those protections so unless they can make a genuinely great case they aren't going to do stuff like that

user55340

Memory of dog in the office... one guy brought in a malamute (remember, that dog that can pull 2000 lbs?). Owner had to go to a meeting. Sean (heavy guy, maybe about 300 lbs) offered to watch the dog. Dogs tend to be trained in non-local language to avoid having commonly said words to get it to move.

done flagging for today. Never ever will I write "great answer" in comments. Never ever ever

user55340

The owner trained it in Hindi. So 'go' in Hindi meant walk. Well, Sean had tied it to his chair, and someone was talking in Hindi. The dog decided to go. And pull Sean down the hall as if he was nothing.

for instance my current job has about a one and a half month period in the middle of the year where no vacations are allowed just because some very important business events occur that time annually, but then that's it.

They have a very strong business case for it, and this is the first job I've ever had that's ever told me no about that

user55340

Sean was dragged past the conference room as he was shouting out the various guesses he had for stop. The owner went out the conference room, said the stop word, and then lead the dog back to the cube and suggested that people in the area refrain from speaking in hindi for a bit...

2

7:02 PM

@MichaelT woah

user55340

There isn't much you can do to stop a dog who can pull a ton on a sled from pulling a 300 lb guy on a chair with wheels.

@JimmyHoffa and what happens if your vacation time expires during that 1.5 month period? then you've got to use it before then etc

and if they gave you 300 vacation days in the middle of that time, you still can't use them

0

Q: How can I measure the Big-O complexity of an algorithm?

I'm working on a couple of versions of an algorithm. I expect one of them to be O(1). My actual measurements look like this: 1,000 inputs: 0.020000000000000462 seconds 1,000,000 inputs: 0.069999999999999400 seconds I think that this counts as O(1); increasing N by 1,000x only took ~3x l...

^-- "Too Broad" ? That was my guess

user55340

(by dragged realize that was "dog walking down the hallway" not at a high speed, just more of "you can't stop him.")

@Ampt this is what annoys me, my vacation renues mid-may, so if I have to take my remaining time I have to take it in spring rather than summer :(

7:04 PM

@Ampt It's not altogether common for companies to expire all of your vaca these days, that's mostly pretty crappy companies

@JimmyHoffa We've managed to divine an answer in the comments.

user55340

Former employer had vacation reset on Dec 13th. The problem is that people would save vacation in case they were sick (no sick days), and then have to burn it right after Day After Thanksgiving (DAT) - a very important time in the retail world.

Sort of.

@RobertHarvey brb, flagging as too chatty

@Ampt definitely ask about how sick time off works

@MichaelT you didn't get that friday off?

7:05 PM

@RobertHarvey I don't trust execution measurements to tell me the complexity of anything, you have to actually analyze the algorithm to know. Actually compiled and executing code is (possibly) so far from original algorithm specification that it means nothing

user55340

So nothing gets down between DAT and the 13th because you're missing a good chunk of people who needed to be there... and various projects are keyed calendar year - so everything big is due Dec 31st.

@JimmyHoffa Of course. You can't actually say that the algo is O(whatever), but you can claim that it behaves like O(whatever).

user55340

@enderland Nope. Well, mandatory vacation unless you could work in the store, and then it was work in the store. Unless you were in Point of Sales which was a "all hands support" day.

the algorithm may be O(n^2) but the compiler may have parallellized some portion so you don't see a squared increse or who knows

feels really bad without close votes "I was wondering if perhaps there are tools, plugins..."

2

Q: How to minimize merge conflicts when using non-lock VCS like git?

I have been using git for about four months now. While I like most of its features, I find it rather inconvenient that multiple developers can make concurrent changes to the same file and then a need for merging ensues. In fact, I would prefer waiting for a file to get unlocked over tedious and...

version-control git

7:06 PM

@MichaelT ugh. my company gives that as well as Dec24-Jan1 off - which is great

user55340

(all the buyers and operations... basically anyone who could was flown out to some store to work).

user55340

Thats store operations, not IT operations.

@JimmyHoffa That would make it O(whatever) instead of O(n^2), wouldn't it?

@RobertHarvey That's fair, I just mean the premise of his very short question is simply "How do I measure time complexity for an algorithm?" then he starts with "Well I measured it with execution, is that good enoguh?" The answer is: Absolutely not, followed by a book about algorithm complexity

Well...

user55340

7:07 PM

I don't get DAT off here (taking a floating holiday) but since we have people who work federal, and they get Columbus day and Veterans day as holidays, we get them as floating ones.

@JimmyHoffa we would see that fairly often in algorithms. You would see where the compiler would add more threads because it would drop instantly at those places

@RobertHarvey Nah it would just make the measurement not accurately represent the true nature of the algorithm, which means if he can have O(n) while his O(n^2) may behave well, obviously the O(n) would behave far better

up until you reached n = cores tried it with 2 core, 4 core and 8 core processors. it was pretty neat

and he starts his question with it needs to be O(n), so he's probably working on homework

Of what use is the theoretical O() if the actual O() is quite different?

7:09 PM

@RobertHarvey more platform independent

it's also the worst guaranteed time

it will never be worse than that

@RobertHarvey the actual O will still scale with the theoretical, just because the actual O(n!) is acceptable performance doesn't mean the actual O(1) wouldn't be distinctly better performance

I mean, if actual and theoretical algorithm complexity don't scale together, then somehow we've actually solved P=NP, just not theoretically..

user55340

@gnat Edited out tool aspect. I don't think it breaks any existing questions as they don't mention any tools.

@MichaelT good edit, that way it looks worth keeping open

user55340

Got a video from my parents of my nephew (2 years old) with his new rocket utensils that I got him from Think Geek. He stabs a bit of food, goes "5 4 3 2 1 blastoff (whooshing noises)" and then eats it. Repeat.

If you want to know how to measure performance you could ask that, but asking how to measure algorithm complexity can only be done by analyzing algorithm implementation, and how to do that there are books written about so close voted as too broad. If you edit to not ask about analyzing complexity but rather measuring performance scalability then I'd be glad to retract it. — Jimmy Hoffa 10 secs ago

user55340

7:15 PM

Given he's a RoR / JS guy, one must also include the (not negigabe) amount of spinning up the appropriate environment / interpreter / compiler.

What he wants to ask isn't a terrible question, but what he did ask just can't really be answered without picking through his code (if he posts that then I think asking for helping analyzing it's runtime is on-topic unless I'm mistaken)

Why this implementation choice? -- Probably the only answerable question here, if you can make it a real question and not you trying to convince everyone else that you're right. For what it's worth, that kind of question is a better fit at programmers.stackexchange.com, not here. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago

user55340

7:30 PM

@gnat simple answer "two data points cannot distinguish between O(n), O(nm), O(n^2), O(n^3), O(2^n) or O(n!)."

@MichaelT yup, that's what I was getting at

user41796

@RobertHarvey that might work here. It's a bit too wordy at the moment, and some of the supporting information doesn't really need to be there. Hard to say if it will land a more solid answer or not. SO has a deeper bench of C# history gurus than Progs does. But those same gurus may have been turned away by the churn from the initial question.

I went ahead and deleted that question, since Pragmateek seems more interested in miking a discussion than in improving his question.

user41796

I thought that might happen too. The comment chain was .... long.

I've got a chat window open for him, but I don't know if he'll see it now.

user41796

7:34 PM

30 - 40 comments leaves a lot of baggage for a question to overcome. Not good odds for it.

He needs to start over and ask a better question.

Discussion between Robert Harvey and …

Imported from a comment discussion on stackoverflow.com/questi...

small joys of being low active at SO - potential revenge DVs shine through. I think I'll wait for 2-3 more then flag for mod attention. The voter (if there is really one) is fairly accurate, one DV every 4 days, I did something like that against Goma (although I mixed that with upvotes and was using irregular intervals)

user image

user41796

@RobertHarvey or better yet, open up a rant on MSO decrying the evil, overbearing mods. And then declare that SO better shape up or he's done! Done! Do you hear him! He's done!

@gnat There's nothing the mods can do about that. If it rises above some unknown threshold, the overnight scripts will automatically reverse the downvotes.

@GlenH7 Yes, because that's so much easier, and consumes so much less of everyone's time. :)

There he is.

@RobertHarvey well let's wait and see. I wouldn't worry if I'll get a single flag decline. And, of course, I am not going to flag while there are only 3 "data points", I am not that dumb...

7 mins ago, by MichaelT

@gnat simple answer "two data points cannot distinguish between O(n), O(nm), O(n^2), O(n^3), O(2^n) or O(n!)."

7:38 PM

@gnat That is some patient revenge...

user41796

@gnat oh gee, and maybe some random sympathy up votes just occurred to help balance things out.

im gonna get to 2999 rep and then give it all away mwahahahaha

user41796

I think that just offset 80 days of serial, but patient, down voting.

3

5

A: The Many Memes of Meta

Meme: Meta effect. Originator: Mat (?) Mentioned: MSO comments, Sep 8 2011 Background: Increase of voting activities observed in main site posts that have been exposed at meta. Most ironic when someone complaining to Meta about "unfair downvotes" on another site gets more downvotes. Also s...

thanks guys!

@Ampt that's sort of revenge I learned myself with Goma, so I was not surprised to see it working at myself :)

7

A: How did this user amass more than 2k worth of reputation?

A word of caution, based on an advice given in comments in another question: ...just don't go on a down voting spree..., last time he made it into Meta three people started downvoting everything and they were caught by the serial voting script. It ain't that easy... ...not that I sug...

> ...not that I suggest to stop downvoting bad questions, just when you do that, better make sure that it works as you intended.

@GlenH7 Bless your heart for those imaginary points

user41796

7:45 PM

From my point of view, I'm more than happy to offset petty revenge down voting. If nothing else, it fuels further investment in the sites.

@GlenH7 I know, I was being facetious. Of course I think it would take more than a little petty downvoting to discourage @gnat :)

user41796

oh, I already had that typed out before you sent you comment. I blame multi-tasking, but there can be delays between the comment being ready and me hitting send.

user41796

And besides, you told us yesterday that your real name isn't Tiny Tim.

@GlenH7 in that case I take back my previous point and totally meant every word of the first statement, and in addition would like to inform you that you are a nerd of the geekiest variation

user41796

thanks

7:50 PM

@GlenH7 well you've narrowed it down to all the Matt D's in the greater south eastern wisconsin area

still a considerable number no doubt

@Ampt that's right, but balancing upvotes make even stone hart like that of mine warming :) And yeah, I tend to balance what I suspect to be revenge myself. I am neither moderator, nor reversal script, so I am not obliged to follow strict rules, when I sense it, I just act against

user55340

@amon you might be interested in answering programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/219576/… too

@MichaelT apparently 'YES' is not a long enough answer

of course depending on the implementation of contains for his language, that might be a perfectly viable solution

user41796

@Ampt oh! oh! let me put a semi-snarky but pretending to be sage answer in first of "I want to say meh but you have to play corporate politics". Then we can get in a comment war about whose answer is better but without actually comparing the two answers.

@GlenH7 Here let me help 'Clearly you don't need to check every users input. That's just corporate politics at work. You should only do this if the user is important enough.'

user41796

7:57 PM

That's an awesome start.

user41796

And then I'll point out some case where I don't think your answer won't work even though the OP doesn't mention it as being required.

Better yet, you should assume some things about the OPs question out of left field, such as words only starting with the letter A and searches only happening during database peak times

user image

in Discussion between Robert Harvey and Pragmateek on Stack Overflow Chat, 29 mins ago, by Pragmateek

@RobertHarvey: I don't want opinions, only technical facts like Eric Lippert saying:

Yeah.

8:06 PM

^-- pretty sure he just said that P.SE is just for opinionated gibber

And yet, that's exactly what his question is.

He huffed away in disgust. Which is probably the best possible outcome. Too bad he can't be a little less... wordy. I think his ability to express himself slightly outstrips his level of knowledge.

@JimmyHoffa wait, I'm supposed to use facts?

user41796

@Ampt no, no. That's only on the "real" site. We're totally down with baseless conjecture on Progs.

@Ampt Only if you want to really screw with us, but you'd better cite them or else we'll just flag it as plagiarism; we all know you don't know any of your own.

@JimmyHoffa this is correct. I am incapable of generating facts. Professors, et al. 2013 [Grade Reports 1-2]

8:11 PM

user image

Creepy,

user41796

@Ampt Professors don't want original facts, they only want regurgitation. Original facts mean they have to research and validate whatever may be new. Regurgitation allows for cross-checking against previous answers. Way easier.

I helped a student recently with an Access class (I'm an old-timer at Access). The teacher complained that the student didn't use the wizards.

user41796

@RobertHarvey well duh. Wizards are the only way to handle that sort of thing.

user41796

In previous life, we had to warn contractors during the phone interview that all of our MQ changes were via script and not through wizards. That eliminated a crazy number of candidates.

Ivan Crojach Karačić

hey @ampt

8:15 PM

@RobertHarvey I'm genuinely afraid I might alienate my kid from his teachers through assault of various forms when shit like this happens...

@IvanCrojachKaračić Hey, I mean if the user types in junk like zxywordq

user55340

Wizards are only acceptable in Harry Potter.

would that match to word?

user55340

arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/…

user41796

@MichaelT erm, LoTR....

8:16 PM

or is this purely dictionary to dictionary?

user55340

> That doesn't mean there's necessarily a "Clippy" to help new operators master their systems. The Raytheon team has had sailors in to perform usability assessments from before code was even written, showing them screen shots of interfaces to get feedback from users. "We had a chief that said, 'We don't want any 'wizards,'" said Froncillo.

@GlenH7 That's not a wizard, didn't you read that Sauron wikipedia page the other day?

Ivan Crojach Karačić

ah...Now I get it... yes... I am looking for anything meaningful in the string

if any substring is an english word it's a match

user55340

@GlenH7 Those are Istari. Maiar incarnate in a human form on the world.

they're uh morgoth or something

Ivan Crojach Karačić

8:16 PM

i just need to find the longest of them

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Morgoth was a Valar.

@IvanCrojachKaračić is this a purely academic pursuit? or is real performance a concern

Ivan Crojach Karačić

I am developing a learning app so it should be somewhat fast...

@IvanCrojachKaračić you know anything about multithreading?

user55340

(many many years ago, I played on MUME... it was kind of important to know these things... I had an argument with a French speaking swiss guy about the indefinite article in front of Hobbit. I had to get out my copy to quote the entire paragraph to him.)

Ivan Crojach Karačić

8:19 PM

Threading could be a possibility... but again... I wouldn't like to test for 4 or 5 letter words if I can stop right at 8 or 7

user41796

@IvanCrojachKaračić You likely have a smaller set of 7 and 8 letter words than you do with 4 or 5 letter words.

yeah, but you could parallelize it all and do them at the same time

give each possible combinations of each letter its own thread

user41796

So the query will run faster in those cases. If they win, kill off the threads for the shorter length queries.

or at least do it in waves

do all the possible threads for 8-5 in one wave

then go down to the lower ones

user41796

And you likely have more CPU power sitting around idle than you realize. So "waste" the computation and look for it anyway.

Ivan Crojach Karačić

8:21 PM

yes...I can give it a try...thanks guys...you helped me a lot :)

no problem!

user41796

@MichaelT I quickly realized to not even try and argue any points on that one with you. Even though I'm wrong, I still say LoTR.

But obviously a CSRF token is used for all form submissions -- Obviously? I would think it's more likely that a legitimate API is being used that doesn't require CSRF. That's how Facebook works. — Robert Harvey 2 hours ago

user55340

MUME - a very old DIKU (originally) based MUD. mume.org

Question quality on Programmers is pretty poor today.

8:22 PM

@MichaelT That's why it sounded familiar! I played on some DIKU muds...

user41796

@RobertHarvey Some days I'd swear you go trolling for things to poke at...

user55340

I was a content creator on there back in '93 or there a bouts...

user55340

MUME, Multi-Users in Middle-Earth, is a MUD, one of the early offspring of DikuMUD, founded in 1992. MUME enjoys a measure of popularity in the MUD world. In a September 2000 interview Raph Koster, the lead designer of Ultima Online and the chief creative officer of EverQuest II, lists MUME as one of the games that influenced him as a game designer by "doing such interesting things with player conflict". History MUME was created in 1991 by Philippe "Eru" Rochat, who was soon joined by Claude "CryHavoc" Indermitte, Pier "Manwë" Donini, and David "Nada" Gay. The game was built as an hom...

@GlenH7 Ah, you found me out.

user55340

The player conflict was one of the things that me and a bunch of other bored guys unintentionally started out...

8:24 PM

@RobertHarvey mod erator? No no, troll erator... yes that's better.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Not saying it's a bad thing.... But I've come to the conclusion that if 1) the OP's post smells like trolling and 2) you've already engaged the OP in comments then it's almost guaranteed to be a troll.

user55340

in a diku, as a content creator you can switch into another body of a monster. So a bunch of us switched into orc bodies, grabbed some wargs and went to raid the main town.

@MichaelT Yes I recall this, made for some interesting interactions on occasion when you're just wandering about and somebody was on as a mod and started inhabitting creatures making them behave strangely

Second match in Google Image Search for "trollerator":

aint that the truth though

8:26 PM

user image

user55340

Well, the players liked it quite a bit (monsters with intelligence) so they made them a playable race. To avoid problems with picking on certain people, the evil races only got the race description of the good races (and vice versa). It was "an elf" and "a human".

haha yeah when did Google start doing that? I remember being able to copy them and get the straight URL not terribly long ago...

user55340

View image - copy url then.

user55340

It was a big ago, they did it to reduce the load (multiple http requests) on the server.

user41796

@RobertHarvey That showed up as 1st image for me. The 2nd image was the Kermit meme. Was going to post that here but decided against it.

8:28 PM

@RobertHarvey The resemblance is uncanny

@GlenH7 Blocked by websense. :P

@GlenH7 For me the second imag was some weird medusa with a tiny dude standing on it's hand... and something about milk O_o

Yes. Because milk.

Everyone here seen the Tuscan Milk reviews on Amazon?

...so I guess my google history is very weird

user41796

@RobertHarvey it heads out to memegenerator

8:30 PM

amazon.com/Tuscan-Whole-Milk-Gallon-128/product-reviews/…

amazon.com/JL421-Badonkadonk-Land-Cruiser-Tank/dp/B00067F1CE/…

Pretty great reviews for that...

Badonkadonk? Do you take it to nightclubs?

user image

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Look at the 'also purchased' item list.

user55340

amazon.com/2009-2014-Outlook-Toilet-Seats-Greater/dp/B001T44Z0W/…

user55340

8:33 PM

o_O

@MichaelT That's hysterical. "Best of David Hasselhoff." Had no idea that tank commanders were Hoff fans.

This is a worse linkhole than wikipedia...

amazon.com/Cashel-DAD-SC-The-Daddle-By/dp/B003EWECSC/…

@JimmyHoffa Apparently you haven't been to Tv Tropes yet.

@RobertHarvey No, I've been warned; I heeded this warning.

user55340

How's this for random....

user55340

8:34 PM

amazon.com/Million-Random-Digits-Normal-Deviates/dp/0833030477/…

The book is a promising reference concept, but the execution is somewhat sloppy. Whatever generator they used was not fully tested. The bulk of each page seems random enough. However at the lower left and lower right of alternate pages, the number is found to increment directly.

3

2

Q: Definition of a type

Conceptually, I used to think of types as sets. However, I think I've seen people wishing to distinguish types A, B even if they represent identical collections of values. So I figured a better definition of type is a pair (type_name, set), where two different types cannot have the same first ele...

language-agnostic type-systems

Now here's an actually cool ass question for P.SE:

Thought you might like that one.

user55340

@Ampt hint: in comments, you can just type [chat] and it will generate a link to chat.

@JimmyHoffa Just answer it with some fundamental principles of typing, enough to get over the perceived "cumbersomeness." You don't need the whole encyclopedia, just a few chapters.

8:42 PM

The guys lead-on logic is pretty crazy, who just steps directly through that sequence of deductions without first stopping on one of them and studying it for a while before being able to make the next logical leap. He somehow accidentally stumbled into some deep waters, then accidentally stumbled even deeper, then tripped over a rock and fell of a cliff into even deeper waters...

Guide him to the shallow end.

@JimmyHoffa Holy shit I'm dying over here at those reviews The drunken rampage had me in tears

I don't intend to answer off hand, it's really interesting but his explanation of his understanding is fairly lacking and a good answer would be better formulated by a mathematician

user41796

@JimmyHoffa keep talking like that and you'll never get to 10k

He's not a mathematician. A mathematician's answer will only confuse him more. Explain it in lay language.

8:44 PM

23

A: What can go wrong if the Liskov substitution principle is violated?

I think it's stated very well in that question which is one of the reasons that was voted so highly. Now when calling Close() on a Task, there is a chance the call will fail if it is a ProjectTask with the started status, when it wouldn't if it was a base Task. Imagine if you will: pub...

user55340

Lay language: First lay down. Then get some flowers (thats a leigh or something like that)... ?

^-- I prefer to write answers I know to be accurate and comprehensive regarding the reference question

Good luck with that.

@RobertHarvey Got me this far :)

user55340

Remember that we're trying to build content for the next person to find the question, not necessarily the person asking the question.

8:46 PM

@JimmyHoffa If you can't explain it in a few paragraphs so that he or I could understand it, you don't really understand it yourself.

@RobertHarvey I'm not convinced. He's touching on some very high level things in there; or I'm reading too far into it. I'm not super clear on exactly what he's describing to begin with. To give an answer I would think was accurate I'd have to go read a few category theory papers for reference real quick

user41796

@JimmyHoffa kick off a build and get reading then

To give a good and proper answer, you just have to convince him that there's enough merit to warrant the apparent obscurity.

@RobertHarvey Which is why I'm not answering, I have some vague thoughts about it but I don't know how to define a type; it's an enormous area of research

Is he just talking about types, as in type safety, or is there more to it than that?

8:47 PM

There are others around P.SE with a stronger foundation in these concepts than I

I doubt that.

@RobertHarvey Wayyy more than that from the way I read it

__NOTOC__ In mathematical logic and type theory, the λ-cube is a framework for exploring the axes of refinement in Coquand's calculus of constructions, starting from the simply typed lambda calculus (written as \lambda\rightarrow in the cube diagram to the right) as the vertex of a cube placed at the origin, and the calculus of constructions (higher order dependently-typed polymorphic lambda calculus; written as λPω in the diagram) as its diametrically opposite vertex. Each axis of the cube represents a new form of abstraction: * Terms depending on types, or polymorphism. System F, aka se...

System F, also known as the (Girard–Reynolds) polymorphic lambda calculus or the second-order lambda calculus, is a typed lambda calculus that differs from the simply typed lambda calculus by the introduction of a mechanism of universal quantification over types. System F thus formalizes the notion of parametric polymorphism in programming languages, and forms a theoretical basis for languages such as Haskell and ML. System F was discovered independently by logician Jean-Yves Girard (1972) and computer scientist John C. Reynolds (1974). Whereas simply typed lambda calculus has variables r...

Do they have an entry for "fuck me?"

In computer science and logic, a dependent type is a type that depends on a value. It is an overlapping of feature of math-encoding type theory and bug-stopping type systems. In intuitionistic type theory, dependent types are used to encode logic's quantifiers like "for all" and "there exists". In functional programming languages like ATS, Agda and Epigram, dependent types prevent bugs by allowing very expressive types. Two common examples of dependent types are dependent functions and dependent pairs. A dependent function's return type may depend on the value (not just type) of an argu...

Yep, right there

and to understand the variances in how any of these actually play together you need to understand a lot from

Parametric polymorphism

In programming languages and type theory, parametric polymorphism is a way to make a language more expressive, while still maintaining full static type-safety. Using parametric polymorphism, a function or a data type can be written generically so that it can handle values identically without depending on their type. Such functions and data types are called generic functions and generic datatypes respectively and form the basis of generic programming. For example, a function append that joins two lists can be constructed so that it does not care about the type of elements: it can append li...

I know that one.

Sort of.

8:49 PM

which is of course all rooted in

Intuitionistic logic

Intuitionistic logic, sometimes more generally called constructive logic, is a system of symbolic logic that differs from classical logic by replacing the traditional concept of truth with the concept of constructive provability. For example, in classical logic, propositional formulae are always assigned a truth value from the two element set of trivial propositions \{\top, \bot\} ("true" and "false" respectively) regardless of whether we have direct evidence for either case. In contrast, propositional formulae in intuitionistic logic are not assigned any definite truth value at all and ins...

[sigh]

or if you want to think of the root in regards to implementations there's

Just answer the damn guy's question. :)

Lambda-mu calculus

In mathematical logic and computer science, the lambda-mu calculus is an extension of the lambda calculus, and was introduced by M. Parigot. It introduces two new operators: the mu operator (which is completely different both from the mu operator found in computability theory and from the μ operator of modal μ-calculus) and the bracket operator. Proof-theoretically, it provides a well-behaved formulation of classical natural deduction. One of the main goals of this extended calculus is to be able to describe expressions corresponding to theorems in classical logic. According to the Curry&...

Does any of this have any practical import, beyond mere mental masturbation?

user41796

8:51 PM

@JimmyHoffa - you're working really damn hard to prove you don't know anything about the subject. I'd say that means you're more than qualified to lead that OP back to shallow waters.

@RobertHarvey I think so, when I do bury my head in Haskell stuff and get lead around to these bits and bobbles I often find parts of them helpful in understanding some of the things I've struggled with. So I like to think it's helped me with the things I've studied and learned to read about some of that stuff. But seriously, I understand this stuff in a larger sense minimally. Besides @jozefg will show up and write something up; he reads about this stuff all day every day. Or we

could get a drive-by from C.A.McCann or someone

@gnat here's your song for today:

user55340

On types, this is P.SE. Give a practical answer. If they want a mathematician's or theoretical answer, migrate it to CS.SE.

Perfect Day

9:07 PM

@gnat I think that and his other one (something about being strange? How could I blank on the name of that..) are two songs I actually bought on my phone..

@GlenH7 I'll take talks like that over 10K and over any kind of SE rep at all any time

user55340

>
I was thinking, "Sweet! Finally a version of Outlook that will run on my wooden Chinese toilet seats!!" Little did I know this has **NOTHING** to do with Outlook for Windows or any other MicroSoft product. It is NOT a five-year wooden-toilet email/calendar software product, but is in fact some kind of WELL-DONE REPORT ON TOILET SEATS!! By coincidence still entirely useful to me in my line of business but now I will have to find some other way to coordinate my inter-seat schedules and emails!! Buyer beware!!

user55340

amazon.com/Stray-Shopping-Carts-Eastern-America/dp/B001H55MFA/…

AHA! I DO have an answer for this! I just had to think about it for a while

I'll try to be accurate but I'm probably going to totally mistate something...

@MichaelT Are some of these products just shameless, thinly-veiled attempts at making money by generating an Amazon Reviews meme?

user55340

9:15 PM

@RobertHarvey I really don't know.

user55340

The odd bit was that it offered to include a banana slicer (frequently bought together)...

user55340

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It's genius, that's what it is. I should self-publish something, attract hundreds of reviews and hundreds of thousands of amused review readers, and retire from programming.

The real question is, does it translate to sales?

user55340

"Field guide to Stack Overflow Trolls - a tool for moderators and wannabes"?

Good idea, but too specific. Only programmers would be interested, and they're too cheap to buy books.

This book is easily one of the top four reference guides for shopping carts available on the market today. It does an excellent job of covering the following topics:

* Shopping carts

user55340

9:20 PM

@RobertHarvey Do it as a $0.99 epub then?

user55340

Get it published by O'Rielly and you'll be golden...

Well more news on the job front. I am definitely getting an offer from the chicago company. again.

sooooometime next week

user55340

@Ampt want a banana slicer?

Jon Skeet says that his wife makes far more money from her children's books than he makes on his programming books.

@Ampt How many times will they make you an offer before they actually give you a job?

user55340

@RobertHarvey "C# for children"?

9:23 PM

Jon Skeet doesn't do what Jon Skeet does for Jon Skeet, Jon Skeet does what Jon Skeet does because Jon Skeet is Jon Skeet.

@RobertHarvey I'm gonna guess 2-3 more times

but I'm not a betting man so who knows

I do not like green monads and ham
I do not like them, Sam I am.

Jim I Am*

user20683

Norman Ramsey I am

user20683

:P

I am... Ampt?

user55340

9:25 PM

"Thing one and thing two - they are named foo and bar, watch them get used here, watch them get used afar"

user55340

(I do believe that if Jon was to write a children's book it could become one of those that people get just because...)

user55340

amazon.com/Thats-Not-Your-Mommy-Anymore/dp/156975926X

really I just want the numbers from this company so I can say "Look at the offers I got. You should match that current employer"

@JimmyHoffa: Does Haskell sacrifice some of Lisp's homoiconicity for more lofty concerns?

user55340

You're making up words again... Silly FP.

9:32 PM

In computer programming, homoiconicity (from the Greek words homo meaning the same and icon meaning representation) is a property of some programming languages in which the program structure is similar to its syntax, and therefore the program's internal representation can be inferred by reading the text's layout. If a language has homoiconicity, it means that the language text has the same structure as its abstract syntax tree (i.e. the AST and the syntax are isomorphic). In a homoiconic language the primary representation of programs is also a data structure in a primitive type of the ...

0

A: Definition of a type

I think your real struggle here is one with decidability, which is totally understandable in this context so let's talk about that for a moment. Your first mention of a type system is quite simple, essentially you have a set and everything in that set represents it's type. Now what type each one...

user55340

@RobertHarvey That just means wikipedia found someone to cite who made up a word.

@RobertHarvey It's more closely rooted with ML, meta-programming was never a real concern in Haskell though GHC has two extensions that make it possible to do macro-like behaviours they're just not a part of the real roots or goalset. Haskell and LISP are pretty different in a variety of ways

user55340

The article has twenty-three citations, one of which is an obscure manuscript from the 1490's and the other twenty-two are arguments on LanguageLog.

@RobertHarvey let me know if that answer I wrote makes sense?

9:34 PM

So the question is fundamentally about decidability?

user55340

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malamanteau&redirect=no

@RobertHarvey In type systems. I think that's what he is struggling with when he talks about distinguishing types etc is the decidability of them, which decidability plays a large role in type systems. That's where type safety comes from.

@RobertHarvey Haskell can mimic LISP very closely if you use basically an ultra simple set of the language but it won't do macros other than with those odd extensions. Everything else about LISP it'll mimic without breaking a sweat, and it does an absolute metric ton of stuff LISP doesn't do because LISP is very simply typed (so long as you stay out of CLOS)

Ah, that makes sense.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa have you written a spreadsheet yet?

@MichaelT What, are we playing Eve?

9:38 PM

Yes, I mean a CSV, I mean no. I mean I have no idea what you're talking about

user55340

From one paper I found while doing some research for a question...

user55340

> The functional programming community has shown some interest in spreadsheets, but surprisingly no one seems to have considered making a standard spreadsheet, such as Excel, work with a standard functional programming language, such as Haskell. In this paper, we show one way that this can be done. Our hope is that by doing so, we might get spreadsheet programmers to give functional programming a try.

user55340

And another paper...

user55340

> Although detractors of functional programming sometimes claim that functional programming is too difficult or counter-intuitive for most programmers to understand and use, evidence to the contrary can be found by looking at the popularity of spreadsheets. The spreadsheet paradigm, a first-order subset of the functional programming paradigm, has found wide acceptance among both programmers and end users.

user55340

It appears to be one of those 'toy programs' that FP types like to write that has some practicality other than recursively solving the towers of hanoi.

9:40 PM

The "Hello World" of functional programming?

I though that was the Fibonnaci sequence.

user55340

Link from friend: buzzfeed.com/robinedds/…

It is, I hadn't heard such about spreadsheets, though makes sense

They're mostly math after all

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Math and function pointers.

holy shit. got my offer from them pretty fast

definitely using that as the benchmark

user55340

@Ampt Some companies have it together. This should be considered a good thing.

9:45 PM

This is the company that took 4 weeks to get me an offer at all.

but its definitely above average

@MichaelT Some of those folks did better than most Americans would.

user55340

@RobertHarvey I'm amused how they all got California and Texas right.

user55340

Only one got Wisconsin right.

COLORADO IN UTAH??? BLASPHEMY!!

Yeah, California is all bikinis and sunshine, and Texas is where they execute people with a low GPA.

Easy to remember.

user55340

9:47 PM

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@RobertHarvey If that were the case Texas would be a ghost town

Saw that one coming.

ugh. Why is Wisconsin the ?

user55340

@Ampt At least they didn't label us some other W state... like Wyoming

user55340

Oh wait...

user55340

9:48 PM

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@NickLarsen some companies have exit contracts that specifically prohibit applying for a job there again. — djechlin 1 hour ago

Or michigan

user image

Why would a company do that?

user55340

user image

user55340

Common mistake apparently

9:50 PM

@RobertHarvey Threat.

I think I may actually be most offended by OHIO

@MichaelT Hey somebody got colorado right!

@JimmyHoffa Pfft. It's terribly short-sighted.

@RobertHarvey Welcome to ...ding...?

ok guys, the pins may be a little crazy :P

9:52 PM

stop pinning everything!!!

4

@psr DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO

user55340

One of the bits that gets me about that map... notice how well it does the four corners.

user55340

(btw, if you go "that is so unfair to have to memorize all the states in the US" realize that back in grade school we had to memorize the countries in Africa, South America, and Europe, and Asia - North America is no worse if you go to the state level)

user55340

@JimmyHoffa btw, notice where Colorado and Wisconsin are in this one... well, pretty much everything...

user55340

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user55340

9:57 PM

Heh... "Further South Dakota"

@JimmyHoffa Alas, I don't have the theoretical expertise to parse what you wrote.

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