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22:00
Well, like I said earlier, I'm not a psychologist, microbiologist or any other -logist,
I only do computers sir
Evolution's purest form would be a world where everything cooperates, in other words, everything is fit to live and ensures the fitness of everything else.

If evolution was true, it would have already at least led to more of that... and it has not.
@StefanoPalazzo Me too :)
@StefanoPalazzo That's all fine, you don't need to be an -ologist to want to find the truth.
keep in mind that evolitionary biologists say, time and again, that evolution has no purpose
It is appointed unto every man once to die and after this the judgement.
22:01
that is, it doesn't have a "goal" or an ideal state
If it has no goal... then what is the point?
I would rather play it on the safe side, than play the fool and find out later...
@GeorgeEdison what's the point of magnetism :)
Magnetism is a fundamental law of nature.
@RolandTaylor hang on, I've got to take you up on that one
22:02
@StefanoPalazzo That is odd... I was taught that evolution does have a purpose. Just that this purpose is chaos...
It exists now, before, and will continue to exist.
@RolandTaylor Maybe I didn't express it well:
(Unless something really strange happens.)
evolution doesn't have a purpose in "mind"
it's not for anything, just like magnetism
it happens, and our world looks like it does because of it
@StefanoPalazzo I get what you're saying... it is not intelligent.
22:03
Then why do popular scientists (atheists) refer to evolution making decisions?
@RolandTaylor well it does make decisions
@GeorgeEdison I know what he is saying too, I'm just saying, if evolution is to be true, then it must have a logical pathway... or if it doesn't then it doesn't exist.
random mutations could be called decisions, natural selection could be called a "decision"
@StefanoPalazzo something with no purpose or mind cannot make true decisions of its own.
The first objection to evolution is simply that no combination of mutations can produce information.
That violates the second law of thermodynamics.
22:05
@GeorgeEdison Thank you ;)!
if you really want evolution to have a purpose, you can think of it like this: it's the path to the survival of the fittest. but that doesn't really tell you anything at all
okay now I want to take you up on pascal's wager
@StefanoPalazzo but if evolution has no purpose, and still makes decisions, evolution must be an entity.
Something that does not "exist" cannot make decisions.
Similarly, a force, cannot make decisions.
@RolandTaylor it exists, but it's not an "entity", it's a process
caused by entities (very complex chemistry)
A process cannot make decisions.
A process cannot control something either...
not in this context...
the process of gravitational pull causes the solar system to spin around like it does
22:07
You're still forgetting that in order for higher levels of life to 'evolve', you need information added to the genome.
one could call the lunar eclipse the other day a decision (one shouldn't of course)
This has never been directly witnessed.
@GeorgeEdison why do you need that?
Evolution is often referred to as driving change, but evolution would have to be a force, a thinking entity, and in reality, a being. It is none of these. Therefore, under observation, it does not exists.
first of all, evolution is not random
that's very important
22:09
@StefanoPalazzo Can FlackBot learn to respond to commands without GeorgeEdison adding information?
@StefanoPalazzo That is not true...
yes, it can
Because if you start with so-called 'simple life forms', then you need more information added to the genome in order for more complex protein synthesis.
...and for other more complex organs, functions, and systems.
Part of the basic concept of evolution is random events (you're forgetting I was once a strong evolutionist).
@GeorgeEdison again, why? we have lots of simple processes resulting in massive complexity
@StefanoPalazzo Such as...?
22:10
@StefanoPalazzo but those processes are controlled by us, aren't they not?
@RolandTaylor that's right, random mutations is one of the big parts of evolution, but the natural selection is a non-random process. Specifically, it's influenced by fitness to a particular environment
@StefanoPalazzo it is still random.
Before I forget, I should mention that there is a difference between macroevolution and microevolution.
Natural selection is supposed to be based on random events as well, and how random events interact...
if a plant dies because it's got too much sunlight, that's not random, is it?
22:11
@GeorgeEdison this is also very important :)
@StefanoPalazzo it is
how far does this definition of randomness go?
Animals / plants / life have a built-in ability to adapt to their environment. But this is not evolution. This is adaptation.
is the whole universe just random?
At least, according to the view that drives evolutionary thought...
@StefanoPalazzo again, according to evolutionary/atheist thought. Everything is random and without purpose...
oh by the way, I don't want to forget to respond to this one:
22:12
In fact, that is one of the biggest problems I have with it.
an example of complexity arising from simplicity, and a nice one, are the fibonacci numbers
@StefanoPalazzo Actually the fibonacci numbers are a good example that someone created Maths with intent.
maybe even the big bang (but that's still not clear I understand)
@RolandTaylor Exactly what I was going to say.
Did you know that almost every life form exhibits a non-random demonstration of the concept?
22:13
let's slow down for a minute, and examine any one of these claims more carefully
you guys make a lot of claims :)
@StefanoPalazzo Oh the Big Bang is very clear "And God said, let there be light, and there was light."
@StefanoPalazzo sure np...
Sorry... we can slow down if you want.
okay, you say that fibonacci numbers are an example of design
how so?
22:15
Because an intelligent mind created their properties.
They are mathematical truths... we discover them - we don't 'invent' them.
@StefanoPalazzo have you ever done that little python program that produces a series (fibonacci series?)
that's more claims, isn't it?
What is?
Compare that the shell of a snail, or the petals around a flower, or even your own hand.
@GeorgeEdison " an intelligent mind created their properties."
22:16
That's a claim, you're right.
@StefanoPalazzo then let us examine that claim.
@RolandTaylor I'm sure you didn't mean to insult me there ;-)
Slowly, as you asked.
But that's the basis of what is being argued.
@StefanoPalazzo lol of course not :D
22:17
I've done that one when I was 11 ;-)
same here, only when I was a bit older O.o...
(I also claim that every kid should do it in school, but that's a topic for another day)
compare that to a flower :)
@StefanoPalazzo (Yeah, I agree :) Python is great for children.)
okay, I know that fibonacci numbers appear in nature
just like addition, roots, and logarithms
Oh! correct me if I'm wrong, I might have just got you
22:19
@StefanoPalazzo kk
you're saying, these numbers are merely a result of creation, not an a-priori condition?
which is what shows, assuming all the other stuff, that there's intent behind them
because god did it, and he has intent
@StefanoPalazzo not "merely" a result of "creation", but rather an example of the results of thought, planning, and careful implementation of principles.
Actually, I rather work backwards, toward God...
"If there is intent, then there must be someone who first intended".
I see mathematical properties / functions the same way.
okay, I see. I thought you were going to try to demonstrate intelligence in the Fibonacci numbers themselves
If you assert that god made everything, than claiming there's intent in the fibonacci series is very easy
Right. Exactly.
22:22
okay, so, what argument can we have that doesn't lead to "because god did it"?
↑ I don't mean for that to sound rude at all, but it does a bit :\
Right... that's where the Bible comes in.
Because if I can prove that it is true, then its claims are true by definition.
A perfect example of that, is Bible Prophecy.
22:24
[Sidenote: some believe that the Bible contains a lot of figurative language and 'stories'. I am not one of those people. It is completely literal.]
There is yet to be a prophecy (within the Bible itself) that fails.
@GeorgeEdison same here ;).
That is one of the tests for the authenticity of an old document.
"How does it compare to itself?"
If it contains self-contradictions, then it can be considered 'inaccurate.'
It's amazing - the Bible itself says "Prophecy will fail" but also that "Not one part of the word of God will pass away until it is fulfilled" <-- in slightly different wording.
two points on that: 1) a lot of these prophecies are very vague
@StefanoPalazzo Wrong.
22:26
2) some are self-fulfilling
I'm afraid I have to stop you there.
When the Bible says prophecy will fail it refers to people like Nastradamus
There are extremely specific prophecies.
I'll try and quickly find an example...
@StefanoPalazzo I have to agree with George there...
22:27
here's a vague one, I think: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."
it's Matthew, or something (I just quickly grabbed that off google)
Since you are a Jew @StefanoPalazzo, why don't we examine the prophecies concerning Israel?
@StefanoPalazzo yes, it's in Matthew.
@RolandTaylor because I don't believe any of that either
Good idea, there are some amazing ones there.
If you want to read it, install Xiphos from the USC.
@StefanoPalazzo so then, you don't believe that Israel exists?
Isn't the one I quoted completely vague and obvious?
@RolandTaylor sure it exists
22:29
Because Israel's existence was prophesied accurately, and fulfilled to the day.
But that's taken out of a larger context.
some would argue, I guess everyone would, that it exists because of the prophecies in the bible
@StefanoPalazzo and no it is not vague, if as George indicated you take it in context.
@RolandTaylor: What's the reference for that one?
if people can read your prophecies, and act upon them, it's not a miracle is it?
22:30
@StefanoPalazzo you do know that it really should not exist though, according to the way things looked in the time when Israel was reborn. In reality, the odds are stacked against it.
@StefanoPalazzo Yup.
It certainly is.
@GeorgeEdison you mean the restoration of Israel?
@RolandTaylor No, the verse in Mat.
@RolandTaylor well yes, but let's keep israel out of it for the moment, it'll lead us off topic
oh 1 sec
22:31
@StefanoPalazzo Never in the history of the world has a group of people been scattered all over the world and then regathered 1900 years later.
@StefanoPalazzo lol not really, but okay, since you are afraid of it...
hey If you challenge me like that, we can talk about israel ;-)
@StefanoPalazzo XD
Okay, then consider the improbability of what I said.
sorry if I came across wrong :), I'm a challenger :P
22:32
and I like to be challenged
When nations break up (the Babylonian empire, the Romans, etc.) we have never seen their descendants try to recreate the nation / empire.
I don't like to be called a sinner though, but I can live with it, as long as we're having an intellectual debate
That's because they spread out over the earth, and lose their distinctiveness.
pastebin.com/hgz9JXNM - for the earlier reference from Matthew
@StefanoPalazzo Hey, we all are.
22:33
@GeorgeEdison I accept all of that, my argument is that the prophecy itself is what caused it
@RolandTaylor Thanks.
@StefanoPalazzo Then if you ask me, that is a miracle.
@StefanoPalazzo and your argument is actually correct, just not in the way you might be thinking it is :).
The word of God will always be fulfilled.
@StefanoPalazzo: Consider something else...
@RolandTaylor here's my full argument: People believe, are afraid of god, all that jazz, therefore they make sure the predictions of the bible come true, because they want to live in the world that results
@StefanoPalazzo that's not true.
22:35
In the early part of the 1900s, there were two concerted attempts to actually destroy these people before they formed a nation.
You can say "that's god way of doing it", I'll accept that
Israel should not exist by way of history...
WW1 and WW2 were attempts by Germany to eliminate the Jews.
...so really it would seem as if 'something' was preserving them.
22:36
the jews have been persecuted for ever
@StefanoPalazzo btw that is not God's way of doing it. God is Love, not a heartless Tyrant.
And there is a reason for that...
@RolandTaylor I'm reminded of the story of sodom and gomorrah
which certainly had me afraid of god, though I didn't understand which one, when I was a small boy
In fact, I thought his ways were pure evil
if course I didn't understand the symbolism of it then
That city was judged for its wickedness.
22:39
I was thinking of Lot giving away his daughters
In Genesis, we discover that there weren't even 10 righteous people in the city.
to "do with them what ever you want"
@StefanoPalazzo That was Lot's bad idea :P I certainly won't defend that.
@StefanoPalazzo You do know that He was not willing to destroy them if there were at least 10 righteous people there?
@GeorgeEdison lol we came with the same answer :P
It's been a while :)
22:40
@StefanoPalazzo that's why I suggest to you again, before you discuss the "fallacy" of something, get to know it.
I'm just saying, god certainly appears to be vengeful, misogynistic, brutal, and so on
depending on how you read it
I understand that you have figured out the correct way to read it, which is what's claimed by religious leaders for a long time. And that I'll have a hard time arguing with interpretation
because my image of a horrible celestial dictator is almost certainly the wrong interpretation
Well, I'm glad that you realize that.
Me too...
Because you really have a skewed understanding :)...
I realised that a long time ago, but, I'm saying that you should somehow prove your privilege to interpret
God does have a side of wrath, but the Bible says (and proves) He is slow to anger, and swift to bless.
22:43
But it's not really an interpretation... I haven't really said anything that wasn't actually stated in Genesis. (Except for Lot... but that should hopefully be obvious.)
I could give you stories from my own life, if you are willing to accept them.
@RolandTaylor of course not :) I'll always want 'evidence', and my flavour of it
However, I'm more willing to stick with something that is tested even by time (my own life is not)
@StefanoPalazzo see that's where truth divides from your kind of mindset.
It's also where most atheists are unable to see, or should I say, get to know God.
You want to do it on "your terms".
indeed I do
However, FlackBot doesn't dictate to George how it should be coded.
22:45
That would be funny though... :)
Similarly, you cannot dictate to your Creator how you are to get to know Him ;).
I would think, to finally get to your earlier point, that god would like me to think for myself, require evidence
@GeorgeEdison lol it sure would XD
@StefanoPalazzo yes He does ;)
and that, in case he existed, I'd go to heaven because I've been a good person
> FlackBot: @George: ping google.com
22:46
@StefanoPalazzo no you wouldn't...
You can't get to my house because you can fly a plane.
Or even do it well.
You're not a good person. Nobody is.
You need directions, and then, you need to be accepted to enter.
We're all sinners. No exceptions.
so, I need to believe in him, in order to really be a good person? Doing good things on earth is not sufficient?
No, it's got nothing to do with being a good person.
22:47
Now, in this case, God has already provided directions, and technically, accepted you, as you are, a sinner. You just need to take the gift of those directions and follow them.
Believing in Him means accepting that you have fallen short.
@StefanoPalazzo Jesus Himself said not to call even Him good.
That was when He was still a normal human on earth of course, because at the time He was experiencing His human experience.
to dig out the old classics: [I] am so made that I cannot believe. What then would you have me do?
(note the word "made")
@StefanoPalazzo but you are not made in such a way; if you were, then your maker would have hated you, His own creation.
By extension, as you are made in His image, He would have to hate Himself...
So, I'm just a bad person. Made to balance out the good in this world
22:51
no...
No, no, no...
There is no good in this world.
(provocative statement there)
you are just a person... fallen from Grace like everyone else ;)
22:51
why don't I believe?
I, nor George... is claiming to be better than you...
Yes, certainly not claiming that.
we were both once nasty, dirty, disgusting... sinners :)
@StefanoPalazzo Because you have been given a choice. Everyone has been given a free will.
not calling you nasty, dirty, or disgusting... but you get the point :)
22:52
@RolandTaylor And it applies to everyone. Even people who some might consider 'good.'
so I will go to hell, yes?
@StefanoPalazzo FlackBot is a bot. It has no free will. You are not. You have a free will...
And by your own free will, you can go to hell, if you so desire.
(assuming I don't change my ways)
@StefanoPalazzo Only if you refuse to accept the free gift of salvation.
It's offered freely... no restrictions.
@GeorgeEdison well that doesn't feel like much of a choice
22:53
However, by your own free will, you cannot go to Heaven, aka be saved from Hell, and live forever, unless you use that free will to accept a free gift
@StefanoPalazzo it is a choice :)
@StefanoPalazzo Why not? If I give you a package (via UPS or something) and it arrives at your door... you can choose to refuse delivery.
That's a choice.
You can take it... or leave it.
if you don't want to live forever with God He's not going to force you... even if it hurts Him to no end...
@RolandTaylor If I now say, out loud, that I believe in god and jesus as my saviour, will that be enough? I would have to lie.
One can't choose to believe surely
@StefanoPalazzo you have to believe it in your heart, actually...
@StefanoPalazzo One certainly can.
22:55
@GeorgeEdison +1
That's faith.
First step - believing that God is.
is = is real, is existent.
Faith isn't blind adherence to some philosophy. Faith is a reasoned assurance.
maybe it's very easy for religious people, I just can't imagine ever believing anything without any evidence
(again, my standards of evidence)
You might not understand this @StefanoPalazzo but faith isn't some abstract idea, it's a real thing.
22:56
I know, I've seen fMRI images of it :)
(very cool stuff by the way)
And, as weird as this sounds, in a vision, I did see faith... just a different form of it...
What kind of evidence would convince you?
anyway... that goes into something you wouldn't understand...
(And why are typos consistently caused by me not hitting the 'n' key hard enough...)
@GeorgeEdison :P
it is evolving...
22:58
@GeorgeEdison well, the easy one would be god revealing himself to me, but it'd have to be reproducible
it doesn't like being hit
@RolandTaylor That's... possible.
I.e. I'd have to be sure I'm not hallucinating
@StefanoPalazzo Right.
@StefanoPalazzo that can happen, but it's a bit unlikely if you don't have faith.
22:59
And what specific ways would He need to reveal Himself in?

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