English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Thanks, KitFox. I was wondering which of these questions is more common. Will you listen to me! Said his mother angrily/are you going to listen to me/aren't you going to listen to me. I chose the first question.

Cerberus

(Strictly speaking, those are (rhetorical) questions, so you would use a question mark.)

Monica

6:02 PM

yes, I don't know why they didn't put it in the test

Cerberus

When you're angry, you can pronounce those rhetorical questions as if they had an exclamation mark, so I guess it's not entirely "wrong".

Monica

but it's still a question

Cerberus

I would say "listen to me!".

@Monica Yes...but some people are less strict with punctuation marks.

"Aren't you going to listen to me?" is a bit different from the other two, it is less forceful.

MετάEd

@Cerberus I, know, I, am.

Cerberus

"Will you listen to me" is probably slightly old fashioned.

Monica

6:05 PM

does 'will you listen to me' underline the woman's irritation more than other questions?

Cerberus

@Monica Probably just as much as "are you going to listen to me".

@MετάEd You. Me. Fight.

TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl

"He has set numerous goals for himself, but one of the most important one is to..."

Is that right or should it be "...important ones is..." ??

Monica

so only 'are you going to listen to me' suggests that the woman is angry?

ah, you said as much as 'will you listen to me'

TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl

anyone?

Cerberus

@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl Should be ones.

Monica

6:10 PM

None of them is stronger in meaning?

Cerberus

You can't have "one goal of the most important goal": you have "one goal of the most important goals".

@Monica I would say the first to mean she's definitely and openly angry; the third one ("aren't you going...") is a bit more passive-aggressive.

But it all depends on context.

Monica

and 'are you going'?

would it be a good question if I asked it on the main site?

Cerberus

Oops, I meant "the first two mean".

Maybe you should ask on ELL?

Monica

You meant these two-Will you listen to me! Said his mother angrily/are you going to listen to me

Cerberus

Yes.

If you print those with exclamation marks, they seem equally angry to me, but of course everything depends on context.

I don't see how you could print "aren't you going to" with an exclamation mark: that would seem weird.

Monica

6:17 PM

It was written so in the test

but you didn't say anything about this sentence; 'aren't you going' :(

Cerberus

6 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Monica I would say the first to mean she's definitely and openly angry; the third one ("aren't you going...") is a bit more passive-aggressive.

14 mins ago, by Cerberus

"Aren't you going to listen to me?" is a bit different from the other two, it is less forceful.

Monica

oh, sorry

I missed it. Thanks.

Cerberus

Hehe.

It's OK.

So I think your test question would be very hard to answer.

Why not ask on ELL?

Monica

I didn't know about that site

can I log into ELL with my stackexchange nickname and password

?

Cerberus

Sure!

It is part of the Stack-Exchange network just like this site.

KitFox

6:24 PM

@Monica Yes.

Sorry, meeting with boss earlier.

And a good meeting it was.

Monica

It says no account with this email found

I am always having technical issues while logging

I will try once again...

KitFox

You need to use your email for your username.

The one you use for StackExchange.

Cerberus

I always have trouble logging into SE sites too.

I recently had to switch to the SE "open ID", and it seems to be working well.

Monica

Yes, but it still says there is no user with this email

KitFox

@Monica The one I can see is your YahooID.

TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl

6:30 PM

Are there any rules regarding using numbers vs spelling them out?

Like "4-year" vs "four-year" ?

Monica

It is monica.monic44.@yahoo.com

KitFox

@TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl We have lots of that question. Let me find you one.

Generally, under ten is spelled out.

Monica

strange.....

KitFox

@Monica You've got a period in there.

Monica

yes

Cerberus

6:31 PM

44.@

Monica

and I put it there while logging

maybe it's 43? I will check it out

Cerberus

Is that period right?

It looks...odd.

yes, it is

OK.

9

Most style guides call for spelling out numbers less than 10, and using numerals for those 10 and over. While reading a magazine today, I saw the phrase nine out of 10, and it struck me as wrong even though it technically adheres to the standard. It seems like an exception is called for in this c...

TheGuyWhoCouldn'tTalkToTheGirl

6:32 PM

thanks!

KitFox

@Monica That period is not there in your login.

Monica

no?

oh

I will try to log in without putting it

Cerberus

Haha.

Monica

:D

Thank you, KitFox

Cerberus

It's working?

KitFox

6:33 PM

Did it work?

Monica

no :(

I removoed the period

but it still didn't work

Cerberus

Are you sure this is the same period? There are two periods in your e-mail.

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

44.@

KitFox

Want me to copy-paste what I can see?

Monica

Yes, thanks

KitFox

monica.monic44@yahoo.com

Monica

6:35 PM

there is no second period in my yahoo ID

yes, that's what I have typed there

Cerberus

Try copy-pasting against typos.

KitFox

Where are you entering it?

Monica

I am typing it into the window under 'Sign in with your account'

if it's called 'a window'. I forgot how it's called.

I will sign up with a new email address

KitFox

Can you paste the link to the sign in page?

Monica

yes, of course

ell.stackexchange.com/users/login

KitFox

6:39 PM

And you clicked on the YahooID one?

Monica

no this one

ell.stackexchange.com/users/login#log-in

KitFox

Oh. Try the "sign in with Yahoo!"

Monica

the first link was a wrong one

yes, I did

I will try to sign in with my yahoo ID

I am there! :)

KitFox

Yay!

I'm glad that worked.

Monica

:)

user87637

6:41 PM

Good, good.

Monica

do questions get closed there too?

if they are too broad, not helpful, etc

KitFox

Sometimes. Their rules are more suitable for people who are learning English.

Cerberus

Yay I have 30,000 reps!

4

KitFox

Congrats.

Monica

Congratulations :)

user87637

6:45 PM

@Cerberus I have 1,000 reps!

Monica

I received a badge yesterday for being talkative :)

Cerberus

@Jasper That's a nicer number!

Monica

is my new account linked to stackexchange account?

Cerberus

@Monica Haha.

@KitFox Thanks.

Monica

so sometimes it's good to be talkative :D

KitFox

6:46 PM

@Monica I don't think so, but if you go to your profile, you can add another login and create a StackExchange login.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus woohoo!

Monica

But how can I find it once the window is closed?

:O

KitFox

Do you know how to get to your profile?

user87637

Open the window, and let the wind in, lol.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yeah!

Monica

6:48 PM

Very funny, Jasper

Cerberus

SE log-in has always been confusing.

Monica

very confusing

user87637

@Monica Are you the Nina that called yourself Monica?

Monica

yes, I know how to get to my stackexchange profile, but not to my new one:(

Yes, Jasper

Cerberus

I wonder why the largest computer-oriented network on the planet can't create a log-in system that is easier to understand!

user87637

6:49 PM

@Cerberus Because it doesn't take a genius, only an asshole, lol.

KitFox

@Monica OK, can you paste a link to your StackExchange profile?

Monica

464 2 18

grammar present-tense perfect prepositions present-perfect-tense tenses verbs

KitFox

@Cerberus Because they let you log in with almost anything.

user87637

@KitFox Is your ear alright now?

Monica

And you the user who used to change nicknames often, Jasper?

KitFox

6:50 PM

@Monica If you scroll down a bit, you'll see your accounts. You can click the link to go to the new site.

@Jasper Seems to be.

user87637

@Monica Si, si.

KitFox

Also, right under the banner near the top is "my logins"and that's where you can click to add a new login, like SE or Google if you want.

Matt Эллен

bai

Monica

Thank you, KitFox. I don't think I would be able to find it myself :(

KitFox

@MattЭллен Bai!

user87637

6:51 PM

It's easiest to use google to log in, never fails.

user87637

I have a lot to say about the different IDs to log in, but the space in this chat is too narrow.

Cerberus

@KitFox That is nice, but it is very intransparent, and it doesn't always work well.

KitFox

Yeah. Well. You asked why.

So I told you.

Monica

I already have 101
reputations

on the new site

Cerberus

You never know whether you're logged in or not, nor on which SE site(s) you're logged in: there is apparently a meta-SE site specially for logging into the network, but it took me Noscript to find the site, go to the address, and log out of there.

@KitFox I don't believe that's why. It is the way SE's log-in system is organised.

KitFox

6:53 PM

@Monica Yes, the association bonus. You get 100 rep automatically because you have 100+ on another SE site.

Monica

ah, nice. I love bonuses

Cerberus

Banker.

KitFox

@Cerberus And it is organized that way to provide a thousand login options.

Cerberus

No, I don't believe that is related.

KitFox

Well, but what would you know about it?

Cerberus

6:55 PM

Okay, end of discussion.

KitFox

Already there.

Cerberus

Why do you do this?

KitFox

What, point out your irrationality?

Cerberus

You are a moderator now.

KitFox

I have been for over a year. It's true.

Cerberus

6:57 PM

Don't enter into a discussion with me if you hate it. This way, the atmosphere is spoiled every time.

Mitch

@Cerberus duh...that's 179357 * 440258543

Cerberus

@KitFox How do you think it makes me feel if you keep telling me how stupid and worthless I am?

KitFox

@Cerberus I wasn't entering a discussion with you. You asked, I answered, you said "Nah, that's not it." Whatever. You think you know something more than me. You don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.

I have never once said that you are stupid and worthless.

Cerberus

I am asking you to stop making personal insults.

KitFox

I am not making personal insults.

Cerberus

6:59 PM

"Irrational" is close enough to "stupid". It makes me feel sad.

Mitch

"People, People, why can't we all just get along" said the guy beating the hornet's nest with a bat.

KitFox

Irrational is a description of a state of being in which a person is failing to apply logic. It does not mean stupid.

Cerberus

Have I ever called you anything like that, attacked your character?

KitFox

I'm not attacking your character. I'm observing that you are not applying logic to the situation.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, I'll end the conversation.

@KitFox Well, if you make a personal remark, that's what it feels like to me. I am asking you to take that into account and stop doing it. Surely you will agree it is not constructive?

Mitch

7:01 PM

I think we can all get away from controversy if we just stick with numbers.

KitFox

I didn't say you weren't capable of applying logic. It annoys me because you don't.

Cerberus

It is a personal remark. It is unnecessary and unconstructive.

Mitch

Kit, just leave it...you're not helping.

Cerberus

I'm just asking you to consider my feelings, independent of whether you're right or wrong in the discussion.

Mitch

Anyway, back to numbers... Cerb you should commend me on my factorization abilities.

KitFox

7:03 PM

@Cerberus You mystify me.

Cerberus

I think I must leave this room now.

Monica

KitFox, and Cerberus let's chat as we always do in a very friendly atmosphere.

Mitch

also...Cerb...what is your first initial?

Monica

No, don't leave.

KitFox

WTF? Am I being punked or something?

Mitch

7:05 PM

I know! I don't people fighting! For that I can go see my family!

@KitFox No, I think Cerb took you seriously and .. by seriously I mean...oh holy crap the hornets!

No really. no fighting in chat.

I mean unless it's about other people.

who are not here.

at the time.

Monica

should I avoid 'thanks' and 'hello' in my questions? And 'could you tell me',' I would be grateful if you', etc. I am posting my first question on that new site.

Users who don't do that on another site like stackexchange are usually frowned at.

KitFox

@Monica Yes, avoid 'thanks' and 'hello'. You could say something like "I was wondering about..." or "could you explain why..." kinds of things though.

TRiG

@Monica Are you talking about a Stack Exchange site, or the internet in general?

Mitch

@Monica Yeah, don't add thanks or hello in questions. They're questions, not emails.

TRiG

Generally, SE sites like people to get to the point.

Monica

7:10 PM

Could you explain and such requests were removed by moderators

Cerberus

@KitFox I have posted a few lines for you on Chatzy.

KitFox

@Monica They might be removed there too, but no worries.

@Cerberus I know, I read it.

Cerberus

Now I need to make reservations and other stuff.

Bye.

Mitch

The extra stuff like Hello and Thanks, is extraneous (useless to the situation).

Monica

I meant Englishforums.com and English learners.com

Bye, Cerberus

My question:Are these sentences the same in meaning?

Will you listen to me? said his mother angrily.
Are you going to listen to me? Said his mother angrily.
Aren't you going to listen to me? Said his mother angrily.

I think I will add 'could you explain to me if these sentences mean the same'

TRiG

7:15 PM

@Monica Yes. And no. Pin down what you mean by meaning.

Monica

I think my question sounds rude

I am asking if they convey the same idea

KitFox

@Monica That and context would help.

Monica

there is no contexy

TRiG

Suggested question: Could you please tell me what the differences between these sentences are?

KitFox

There must be some kind of context.

Monica

7:16 PM

it's taken from a test, I found online

KitFox

And the test just asks if they are the same?

Monica

No, it asks to choose the right answer

KitFox

Right answer for what?

Monica

The right tense choice in that small question

it was taken from here

englishteststore.net/…

I don't remember which question it was

I will use, TRiG's suggestion

I am posting it..

So I don't put anything at the end of the question, right?

KitFox

Well, there's not really anything to answer...are they the same? It depends on the context. There is no context, just a tense question. They are all valid tenses.

Mitch

7:22 PM

@KitFox She's asking for something taken out of context, so she really wants to know, what context do these differ. That is, if the answer is 'It depends' just give what the dependencies are. But Monica, that does make it harder to answer.

KitFox

@Mitch OK, I think that makes sense, but then maybe make it clear that you want the different contexts rather than asking if they mean the same thing.

So something like:

Mitch

I think 'Are you ' and 'Aren't you' though literally different, kind of mean the same thing but then there's another level where there's some presumption going on that's different.

KitFox

My question:Differences in meaning for future tenses?

Will you listen to me? said his mother angrily.
Are you going to listen to me? Said his mother angrily.
Aren't you going to listen to me? Said his mother angrily.

Mitch

'Will you' is slightly more formal.

KitFox

What are the differences in connotation between these three sentences?

@Mitch Yes, 'aren't you' presumes that you should.

Mitch

7:25 PM

'Aren't you' sounds a little more passive (not in tense or mood, just more accepting of the reality that listening is not going on currently.

KitFox

Yeah.

Mitch

@KitFox But 'Are you' almost sounds like 'You better listen to me or else'

KitFox

'Are you going to' sounds more like 'are you planning to' and 'will you' sounds more like 'are you able or willing to'

Monica

I thought 'aren't you' means that, Mitch

KitFox

'Aren't you' means you should, but doesn't mean you will.

And also assumes that you are not.

Monica

7:27 PM

I was trying to find out if all the three sentences express the woman's feelings equally

KitFox

Well, yes. In the sense that they all say "angrily".

That pretty much overrides the subtlety.

Um, but let's see.

Monica

'angrily'-all the three in the same way

KitFox

1. Will you? Settle down, I need to tell you something.
2. Are you going to? Are you planning to follow my advice or just ignore my concern?
3. Aren't you? I am frustrated that you are planning to ignore my advice.

Roughly.

Monica

That's exactly what I needed. Actually my sister.

Thank you, KitFox.

KitFox

nods

user87637

7:38 PM

Oh, looks like I missed a pseudo-quarrel, lol.

user87637

It's good to lol to lighten up the atmosphere a bit.

Monica

7:53 PM

Goodbye all

user87637

@Monica Bye!

MετάEd

@Jasper It looked like that to me too, until I re-read it.

user87637

@MετάEd It is like that, no doubt, lol.

Mitch

8:16 PM

@KitFox that's a good summary, understanding of the pragmatics.

@Monica what Kit said.

Also, your sister should listen to your mother. It seems not listening to her makes her upset.

@MετάEd Words are weird. When you're listening in the moment it can seem like one thing, then reading later another. and then reading later more closely something else entirely. Or not. Stupid words.

MετάEd

@Mitch The implication being that a person should avoid doing (or not doing) something if doing (or not doing) it will upset another person.

Mitch

But also, sometimes you have no control over what is upsetting, that is it is not your own words necessarily. That's upsetting.

Also, everything is. in case it wasn't obvious.

MετάEd

Reminds me of Thor's comment on Wiley's dictionary.

The entry was "Annoy (v.t.)". The comment was, "You have a duplication here. You covered this under Exist".

tchrist

8:37 PM

I see the @Reg has given up on the notion of a prisoner-exchange.

Cerberus

►

Moon Phobos partially eclipses the sun as viewed by Curiosity on Mars.

In the second half of the video, you can see how the landscape becomes darker during the eclipse.

RegDwighт

Did you notice that you can't spell Google Translate without the letters N, S, and A?

Nice try, NSA. Nice try.

Too bad Der Spiegel actually did their own translation.

Cerberus

8:55 PM

@RegDwighт Uhh wtf.

That is so weird.

Why doesn't Google try simpler algorithms for a change? These mistakes seem so totally arbitrary.

Robusto

@RegDwighт Former? You mean they fired him after giving him asylum? What a dick move.

Cerberus

The actual event is funny enough btw: Under orders from Germany's domestic intelligence agency, a federal police helicopter conducted a flyover of the US Consulate in Frankfurt, the government in Berlin has confirmed. Officials were apparently searching for surveillance equipment.

RegDwighт

@Robusto it's called "cover", I think. I think.

Cerberus

I mean, what purpose does that serve?

It's just trying to intimidate the Americans.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

0

A: How to refer to people of mixed race?

People. Pretty sure about 99.9% of all people are mixed to some extent. If you find someone who is really mixed - like me - then I would use mutt. You are referring to their skin color not race, because if a person had a black dad and white mom but appeared white the question may never come up...

Robusto

8:57 PM

@Cerberus We are beyond intimidation, beyond shame, beyond even recognizing that others think differently from us.

►

RegDwighт

Good times.

Cerberus

@Robusto I guess...but, really, the German and Dutch governments really like spying, too...

Robusto

Yes. They are governments too.

Cerberus

Although placing backdoors in software used by millions? I would not expect my government to do that.

Robusto

If we could just get the anarchists and nihilists to form a governing coalition we could solve all our problems.

Cerberus

9:07 PM

Spying on American diplomats in NATO buildings in Brussels? I don't know, it seems unlikely that we should dare do that.

@Robusto And the communists, don't forget the communists.

Robusto

@Cerberus Or make porn an opt-in thing? Think of the hardship! @MattЭллен had to go for days without a wank, IIRC.

Matt Эллен

because of Cameron's anti-porn wall? It hasn't affected me :D

Robusto

@Cerberus What if this is all about finding out the very best porn sites? Like there are some very serious jerkoffs running the spy show, and they are burned out on all the tame stuff they've seen. It's an addiction.

RegDwighт

@Robusto they'd just cut off your Johnson with a ferret.

Robusto

@MattЭллен Where there's a willy there's a way.

Matt Эллен

9:09 PM

quite

Robusto

@RegDwighт All the Dude ever wanted was to get his rug back.

RegDwighт

It tied the room together.Understandable.

Robusto

So . . . we can't talk about the latest episode of BB.

RegDwighт

But I must be off again as we've reached Season 4.

Weird jinx.

Cerberus

@Robusto That is indeed one of the most extreme things ever.

Johan Larsson

9:11 PM

yeah four days is much

RegDwighт

As mentioned, I will be seeing yesterday's episode tomorrow.

Right now it's marathon with wife.

Robusto

@RegDwighт TMI.

Cerberus

@Robusto Sure, they like to e-mail each other images/videos of random people they caught in the act...

RegDwighт

> I think Robusto's comment offers as good an answer as any.

Heheheh. Hehehe. Heh.

Cerberus

Well, well.

Robusto

9:21 PM

@RegDwighт Que?

@Cerberus I can't even remember when I had 30K reps.

Speaking of which, has Barrie eclipsed me yet? I sure wish he'd get moving on that. I'm tired of being the biggest loser around here.

Cerberus

And soon you won't be able to remember what it was like to have the most reps on ELU.

Robusto

27 secs ago, by Robusto

Speaking of which, has Barrie eclipsed me yet? I sure wish he'd get moving on that. I'm tired of being the biggest loser around here.

Don't you know how to read?

Cerberus

You ninja'd me, not fair.

They should make the Atlantic smaller. And increase the speed of electrons too, ktxbai.

MετάEd

9:59 PM

@terdon, it is my understanding that the expected tip of 15% in the US is unusually high, but you are quite wrong to say that the US is the only country where you are expected to tip. The amount of tipping that is expected varies with different countries according to how and how much servers are generally paid; here in the UK (for just one example) not leaving a tip would be regarded as abnormal except as a response to markedly poor service. — Hammerite 4 mins ago

This question is turning into a forum on tipping practices.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…