TRPG General Chat

BESW

12:01 AM

Back.

CatW

Welcome back then? (Even though I was just talking to you.)

BESW

Heheh.

BESW

12:40 AM

Today's Tweet to Campaign By comes with bonus pop culture implications.

The Governor offers $500 reward for Bart Simpson, who murdered James White last week. KY1878

Tweeted by TweetsofOld on July 8, 2013 at 12:35 AM

doppelgreener

1:16 AM

Bart Simpson becomes a time traveller wrapped up in a mess greater than himself

Oblivious Sage

Next, on FOX!

doppelgreener

A new Simpsons spinoff!

BESW

3:41 AM

@JonathanHobbs Does your Doctor Who fan friend know the band Chameleon Circuit?

doppelgreener

@BESW I will find out :)

BESW

►

Alex P

I... I think we played 7 hours of stuff today, off and on.

BESW

Nice!

Alex P

Two sessions, effectively.

I won an archery contest and then later my quasi-friend was killed by a giant magic chicken.

BESW

3:54 AM

That... sounds a lot like the most recent episode of Ultimate Spider-Man.

Alex P

But it was all like super-important and complex and stuff.

Emotionally charged.

Enh, okay, maybe half-charged.

doppelgreener

Giant magic chicken

Emotionally charged

BESW

I've heard of crocodile tears.

Alex P

Its eggs are glowy stones with magical things inside them.

I did not get one.

Skinned my face but good, though.

doppelgreener

I am impressed by your group's ability to do something that sounds like it should be right at home in a very silly sequence of events, and keep it emotionally charged

Alex P

3:56 AM

@JonathanHobbs It's just me and the wife.

She introduced the idea in the previous session, with the archery contest. This guy was telling me about his exploits. Including a magic chicken thing.

BESW

@AlexP Do you have to wash your hands a lot before you get the stuff inside?

Alex P

So then later, like 400 miles away, I run into it.

doppelgreener

@AlexP Hahaha! That sounds great actually

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs And I barely got away from it, with no treasure. But then the other people in the crew wanted treasure. Which didn't go super-great for them. Or, okay, it went poorly for the one of them I cared about.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Your Core/Accelerated question is looking snazzy.

doppelgreener

4:09 AM

@BESW Good enough to post?

BESW

Almost. You've got one last rogue "system" in the middle of the paragraph after your bullet points.

Other than that, I think you're golden.

doppelgreener

@BESW Fixed. Any tags needed other than fate-core and fate-accelerated?

Seems we don't have a tag like "gameplay"

Magician

Morning

BESW

I don't think so.

@JonathanHobbs That... is probably a good tag not to have.

doppelgreener

@Magician Good morningsortof!

BESW

4:19 AM

@Magician Hey.

Alex P

@Magician Hello!

Magician

Oooh, a lively chat :D

doppelgreener

@BESW Probably not, yes... but something like "this question is about the gameplay experience and/or the gameplay experience is a very major important part of this question"?

Maybe that doesn't really need to be tagged

BESW

gm-techniques?

Magician

Me and @BrianBallsun-Stanton made a thing. A "podcast" thing. Here. An hour of trying to make characters with latest D&D Next playtest package.

Alex P

4:21 AM

@Magician Does it take that long? Or are you taking your time / making several?

doppelgreener

@BESW Off target I think

Magician

@AlexP We were going through the rules as we were doing so. There's 2 characters and a tiny bit of combat. Plus ramblings.

doppelgreener

I'm going to post it with those two tags and let it be tagged later if need be

Magician

If you knew what you were doing, you'd probably make one in 10 minutes

doppelgreener

0

Q: What are the gameplay implications for choosing Fate Core or Fate Accelerated Edition?

I am shortly going to be starting a game of Fate with my friends, using either Fate Core or Fate Accelerated Edition (hereafter just “Core” and “Accelerated”). I am well aware they are both the same system: some modifications are made between the two, and the complexity dials are tuned differentl...

Alex P

4:24 AM

@Magician That's not bad. What's your overall impression? (I don't really have many opportunities to listen to podcasts, and I find them difficult tbh.)

Magician

@AlexP It's still an unrefined mess, is our impression. Feats are all over the place. You get 4, total. One lets you mimic someone's voice after a successful Bluff check. Another lets you raise someone from the dead if they've been dead for less than a minute.

And combat is what worst 3ed combat was. You stand in place and hit things, until they go away.

BESW

Sweet! sedentary combat.

Magician

Oh, and Brian made a gnome monk, because we had to. He tried a "roleplaying" build. So he needed 3 stats for class, another for character concept, and his race gave him a bonus to 5th.

doppelgreener

@Magician What makes the running around absent?

Magician

But he rolled insanely well on random abilities generation, so he might have been able to pull it off... except in combat he did 2 damage, and i did 17. So yeah, monks.

@JonathanHobbs Zero incentive. Nothing in monster abilities or character abilities offers any benefit. There is no map (even though many feats operate with things like "push 5 feet")

Alex P

4:29 AM

So is it pretty much AD&D 2nd Edition combat?

doppelgreener

@Magician Mechanically does the system care where things are spatially or does it play out like a Final Fantasy battle (possibly with the exception of things being either "adjacent" or "not adjacent")?

Magician

You could run around, but that would be purely on GM to encourage you. You could try and spend your actions on anything other than hitting things, like being cool, but then you're not getting closer to winning, and might fail a check and not even be cool.

@AlexP Haven't played AD&D, but that would be my understanding, yes. The combat is fast. 5 minutes to kill a single monster with 2 characters. But purely because it was a "I hit it, now it hits me" combat.

@JonathanHobbs It wants to support both minis and theater of the mind, theoretically. So it cares a bit about adjacency - people get reactions, basically opportunity attacks. But we didn't have casters, so no one was provoking anything anyway.

This is all based on a skim of the rules, mind you. There could be some hidden gems there, we just haven't seen any evidence.

Like... We fought a gray ooze, dripping on us from stalactites in Underdark. That could have been cool. But after we worked out some approximation of stealth rules and decided that one of us spotted it and alerted another, there wasn't much else for us to do but hit one another. The ooze wasn't very good at stealthing, either. +5 ability bonus, -2 dex modifier.

doppelgreener

> From a system design perspective, we have to be sure that our design achieves one of two goals. The core game must support the most essential, core elements of D&D—those that are needed for all types of campaigns. Second, when we design rules that we expect DMs to change to match their campaigns, we need to focus on the simplest, easiest to modify rule. In these areas, we must focus on flexibility above all else.

Alex P

But it's also still doing 3e-style multiclassing?

doppelgreener

I have a morbid interest in how this D&D Next is going to continue unfolding.

Alex P

4:38 AM

@JonathanHobbs Me too! Morbid is exactly the right word.

doppelgreener

Maybe it will actually come out terrible and Wizards - and everyone else - will vividly realise you cannot have one system that supports all things.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Like a wadded-up piece of newspaper dropped in a puddle, that's how.

Magician

@JonathanHobbs See, that's fine-ish, but we're a year into public playtest, and probably 2-3 years into development, and we haven't seen single evidence of a tactics module, or any module for that matter.

@AlexP we made 1st level characters, but I think so.

doppelgreener

@Magician Yes. It's boding well for the noticing-it-won't-work. @BESW is probably accurate in his comparison: wet newspaper doesn't unfold very well.

Alex P

I'm kinda amazed by how it's my anti-edition.

Like, in so far as I want to play D&D, I think I'd just ask for "the opposite of this one" in most ways.

BESW

4:42 AM

@AlexP Oh, don't worry. They'll "fix" that with modules!

Alex P

So, on that front... @Magician: no sign of modules, but I assume there are a lot of "sacred cows" floating around the core rules?

Or did they actually take stuff like "monks have to be Lawful" out of the basic game?

BESW

[moooooo]

Magician

@AlexP Ugh. Yes. Yes, there are. The strangest thing is, it appears to be cobbled together from random bits of previous editions, literally copy-pasted. DC numbers don't work with their skill system. High level monk abilities look to be straight from 3.5

@AlexP I think they're stepping away from alignments somewhat, so that's something.

Alex P

@Magician i feel like that's something I could create in a week.

doppelgreener

@AlexP From this blog post:

> Let's take alignment as an example. A good number of DMs prefer to leave it out of their campaigns. On the other hand, it's a big part of D&D's identity. We've all seen charts that try to fit different characters from a TV or comic series into the nine alignments. For that reason, we've included alignment as a default part of the game, but we're also committed to severing its ties to any mechanics.

> For instance, a paladin detects the presence of supernatural creatures rather than whether a creature has an evil alignment.

BESW

4:47 AM

@Magician It's like a lazy parody of what the D&D Next production would look like.

Magician

@AlexP That's the thing! They've been at it for several years now, and while I can clearly see some new mechanics and some experiments, and that's good, it's obvious they haven't bothered to even think about some parts of it, that are clearly non-functional but still present.

Monsters still grant random amounts of xp. Generally, the higher the level, the more xp, sure. But some level 3s grant 100 xp, others 120. Why? What's the hidden metric? They don't say.

BESW

By "the most essential, core elements of D&D," they clearly mean "the stuff we copypasted in because we think you won't buy it without them."

Magician

Monks are still a hodge-podge of random abilities. They get to choose monastic tradition now, that's new. A level 1 monk can use that ability once per day. Hello, 5-minute work day. And monks still want all the stats. We've had how many editions to learn that doesn't work now?..

Alex P

The core elements of D&D are, let's see... Dungeons. Dragons. Wizard. Fighting-Man. Fighting orcs and skeletons. Treasure.

Also Save vs. Wand being separate from Save vs. Spell. That's my sacred cow. (Not really.)

BESW

Ah, yes. Monks.

@AlexP Bickering over poorly-worded rules.

Sounds like they've got that.

Alex P

4:52 AM

@Magician It seems like Monk would be such an obvious class to play "stat substitution" with anyway.

E.g. "Use your Wisdom bonus for AC."

BESW

Ah, but that wouldn't be balanced!

Because I'm sure they've returned to weighting various stats differently.

Alex P

Well, maybe that in a way that doesn't encourage multiclass-dipping into it as much if you have 3e-style classes.

Magician

@BESW Done that already! Gray ooze damages weapons that hit it. Monk hits it with fists. WHAT HAPPENS?

Alex P

@BESW This was the thing where all the stats have saves but some of them are never rolled, isn't it?

Magician

@AlexP Oh, they do that.

BESW

4:54 AM

@Magician Ow, ow, ow, ow, ow.

@AlexP Kinda.

Magician

@AlexP Yup, that's still there.

BESW

Con/Dex/Wis were the save stats; Dex was the best stat because it gave AC, a save, an attack modifier, and modified the most skills.

Magician

@AlexP They do get Wisdom to AC. But Barbarians get Con to AC. And to hit points, obviously. And rage 2/day. And a greataxe 1d12, rather than fists 1d6. And ability to micro-rage without using rage.

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs I started reading that link and my eyes just kinda glazed over.

Before I even got to alignment.

Just that losing-hp-in-a-dungeon example.

Magician

There was no comparing my Barbarian to Brian's Monk. 2 damage vs 17 damage. Also more hit points. But hey, he could imitate voices. Which, one could argue, would have been something you could do with a Bluff check anyway.

BESW

4:57 AM

@AlexP Yeah, the whole article is basically saying "It's hard to make a game that pleases everyone, but by Sombra we're peddling as fast as we can! What more do you want from us, realistic goals?"

Alex P

@BESW I feel like maybe what that game really needs is just telescoping combat mechanics.

You can play crunchy or simple, with different structures between the two.

Not that everyone would be happy.

But meh.

oy, nevermind, I'm going to sleep

can't think straight

Magician

My understanding is that they suggest you'd use map and minis sometimes, but not others, depending on the scene. Which is fair enough. But feats and abilities that work well with minis, like being able to push 5 feet on a hit, would do close to nothing without a map. Dead weight for half a game, yaay. And that's a feat, of which you get 4, total.

BESW

ttfn

New module: dual-purpose feats! Now you can have map and non-map functionality! Choose one at the beginning of every session! No, you can't change them between encounters. Stop whining.

Magician

@BESW hehehe

BESW

New module: any-time purpose switching! Pay level x5 XP to change your feat from map to non-map and back AT ANY TIME! XP cost is once per feat so you'll have to pay multiple times to change all of them. Stop whining, we gave you what you wanted.

doppelgreener

5:12 AM

Oh. Now I can articulate exactly why I have this morbid fascination with D&D Next: Wizards has given the community the impression that recent versions can and should be able to support all types of games. With D&D Next, however, they have set out with the explicit goal of creating a universal system, and the playtesters can watch closely as they see the development work toward that goal release by release - and it seems to be falling apart at the seams under the tug-of-war force going on.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs It's cards-on-the-table time, and now everyone can see they're playing poker with an incomplete tarot deck.

doppelgreener

@BESW Yes! That's it. (And haha, poker with a tarot deck)

P1: I have death. Does that mean you die?
P2: No, it means you die.
P3: No, Death means new beginnings. It's a resurrection card.
P2: Death resurrects?
P3: Just go with it.

2

BESW

"I drew the Hanged Man upside down."
"Oh, so you're floating away."
"...I'm not sure it works like that."

Magician

Any time I've interacted with a tarot deck, I was disappointed when I didn't draw a Magician card.

Magician

5:43 AM

So, question. Do you know of games with limited GM resources?

Like a monster XP budget, but restrictive. Or limited Fate points available for compels.

doppelgreener

Limited in what way? In D&D, Fate and Roll for Shoes I can throw an unlimited number of mooks and monsters at my players (whether or not they survive is another matter)

Magician

@JonathanHobbs Exactly, so D&D doesn't have this concept.

@JonathanHobbs But, for instance, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying has Doom Pool, which you grow and spend according to strict rules.

doppelgreener

Does Fate count because it has a limited resource available (Fate points) or is it disqualified because it has unlimited resoures available (throw any amount of stuff at the players)?

Magician

@JonathanHobbs Doesn't GM in Fate have unlimited Fate points to give out? I thought only NPCs were limited.

doppelgreener

5:59 AM

There's an unlimited FP pool from which fate points can flow to and from, but that isn't the GM's so much as the table's. NPCs do have a limited budget, however... I'm not sure whether the GM must tap into that budget for compels.

I think that budget is used for the NPC in question invoking aspects, but I am not clear on the rest now that you ask me.

Magician

Another example would be DRYH, which has despair coins. Or Apocalypse World/DW/tremulus, which has something of an economy of actions: GM gets to make a move if players tried something and failed. Though that's mostly theatrics, as GM also gets to make a move if everyone's looking at him to do something, or if he really feels like doing so. But tremulus in particular has hard moves, that players can't do anything about, and that GM earns when they fail particular rolls.

@JonathanHobbs Curious. I don't think NPCs having limited budget counts for my purposes: NPCs in most games have limited budget of things, be they hit points, daily powers or fate points.

It's more about GM's ability to exercise their will upon the world directly

doppelgreener

Later tonight you could ask AlexP about whether Burning Wheel contains anything like what you're describing.

I'm not aware of anything myself.

Magician

Cool, thanks.

I'm fascinated by the idea, and want to see if it's actually been made to work in some games

BESW

6:35 AM

@Magician I think My Life with Master has this, mechanically. Can't recall.

Zachiel

8:31 AM

@Magician Agon. DM points go up when the characters rest. :evilgrin:

"The Antagonist creates contests and opponents by spending Strife tokens. The more difficult the contest, or the tougher an enemy, the more Strife it costs to make.
In turn, when the heroes defeat an opponent or win a contest, they are rewarded based on how much Strife was spent to create it. The more it cost to make, the bigger the reward for the heroes."

"Each extra interlude scene the heroes take to rest gives the Antagonist more budget to spend."

Alex P

11:04 AM

@JonathanHobbs @Magician Nope, BW doesn't have any kind of GM budget. Mouse Guard does, though, IIRC, by defining how long the "GM turn" is.

BESW

@AlexP Could you direct that to Magician, also? He's the one with the original question.

Alex P

Done.

BESW

Thanks.

He'll appreciate that.

Alex P

@Magician 3:16 has a definite session budget in the form of the world's HP. Though you can vary the strength of the enemies (that comes from it's own sort of long-term budget, in the form of a checklist where you check off the particular strength and special ability you used each session).

BESW

I think that a hard reading of 4e would discover a hard per-encounter XP budget for the GM.

But no limit on stringing together encounters.

(The XP budget cap is [the size of the party] x [the XP value of a Standard monster of the party's level +4])

BESW

11:57 AM

@StuperUser [wave]

StuperUser

hey BESW how's tricks?

hey everyone. I was reading up on Psionics for Pathfinder. It looks like a Nomad has skill that once per day grants them another set of actions d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion/…, seems a bit like an Action Point from DnD 4e. Has anyone seen anything in paizo published rules or other 3rd party rules that's like this?

BESW

@StuperUser I have good music, a stressful project, just answered an amusing SE question, and was reminded that Beware the Batman is starting up this week. So, not too bad?

StuperUser

Beware the Batman?

BESW

@StuperUser I know 3.5 and other d20 systems have explored action points.

Beware the Batman

Beware the Batman is an upcoming American computer-animated television series based on the DC Comics superhero Batman. The series is set to air in the United States on Cartoon Network starting in summer 2013, as part of their DC Nation block. It is the replacement for '. To confirm the 2013 premiere date in July 13th, at the 2012 Cartoon Network Upfront Beware the Batman was listed as part of 2012–13 television schedule. Premise Crime-fighting vigilante Batman teams up with swordmistress Katana and his ex-secret agent Cast * Anthony Ruivivar - Batman / Bruce Wayne * Sumalee Montano - Ka...

StuperUser

Looks good, I might have to check it out. The Brave and the Bold was really cool. Camp-ish without being full blown Adam West campy. is BtB going to be a similar style?

BESW

12:08 PM

Hard to tell, but it sounds like they're going to up the physical harm.

StuperUser

Nice. I always liked it when it got a bit gritty. Especially in Beyond.

is there anything about PF "action points" style stuff in the Core Rulebook? APs never made sense to me in 4E, given that a round is 6 seconds, except sometimes when you can fit another 6 seconds worth of stuff into that time.

BESW

One of the reasons I'm fascinated by Batman in all his iterations is that he can endure so many different interpretations without losing his essential Batman-ness. It's an astonishingly flexible franchise.

StuperUser

fact.

Having APs seems fun though, makes it more about the tactical combat than the rping.

BESW

@StuperUser I don't think 4e ever intended to be realistic in that kind of way.

And I'm unfamiliar with Pathfinder except what I've gleaned from this site.

StuperUser

It's the only RPG I've played so far, and my only 4e experience comes from listening to the Wizards' podcasts

BESW

12:14 PM

Pathfinder's "hero points."

I knew I'd seen something like that.

StuperUser

Awesome, that's interesting reading.

Thanks BESW

BESW

No problem.

It's interesting to see games experiment with different variations on a concept, cribbing from themselves and each other.

Late 3.5 material has a lot of stuff that, in hindsight, was more like 4e proof-of-concept stealth testing.

Pathfinder, in its self-appointed role as the Keeper of 3.5's Legacy, has picked up a bit of that.

Alex P

@BESW That last warrior book especially. Tome of Battle?

BESW

Aye.

@TheForestAndtheTrees Hi!

@AlexP Unearthed Arcana has some interesting hints at 4e content, too.

The Forest And the Trees

12:30 PM

@BESW Hi there! Just popping in for a bit. With the D&D next answer I'll need to consult the playtest materials further but I'm pretty sure there's no once/day powers, although a few feats are once/day.

BESW

@TheForestAndtheTrees I did hear earlier today that some features are effectively 1/day at lower levels, like monastic tradition?

The Forest And the Trees

@BESW Yeah, at starting levels some features are once per day. You get extra uses as you gain levels though, so I wouldn't really count them as 'Daily Powers'. They'd still fall under the heading of being resource-based powers in my opinion.

BESW

12:53 PM

@Problematic [wave]

C. Ross

morning all

@BESW really pushing chat eh?

BESW

@C.Ross It's working.

C. Ross

cool

BESW

If I'm overstepping any bounds, please tell me.

BESW

1:24 PM

@CatW [wave] Hi!

KRyan

1:34 PM

@GMJoe Re: Psionics. My second-ever character was a Cerebremancer, and it worked beautifully. I still disagree with your assessment.

Problematic

2:35 PM

Howdy, folks.

BESW

Hey.

Problematic

Prepare to sit through 8-hour planning meeting: check

Ooer.

Howdy.

@AlexP Hey again.

2:59 PM

This question smacks of advertising; would it be kosher to edit it to be more generic? I can do that without losing the important bits necessary to answer it in a way useful to the OP.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Hey, how do I post a question in chat all cool like? where it shows a box of the question

Alex P

@BESW I think so.

@JoshuaAslanSmith I think you just post the link as its own message and it's automagic

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Like this:

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/26968/where-is-the-best-place-to-introduce-your-own-penpaper-system

Problematic

@BESW That question bugs me too. I think an edited version would be more useful.

BESW

Single line entry, with an http:// address all on its own.

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:01 PM

1

Q: What damage (item and feat) combinations exist for ki-focus implements in 4e?

The problem at hand I'm fairly proficient with the usual pathways for getting frost or fire or radiant damage combos/optimization going with regular weapons or using holy symbols, but I am new at trying to optimize damage for ki-focus implements. My usual method of grabbing a weapon that can app...

dnd-4e optimization implements damage-types

An you are correct

BESW

The site takes care of the rest, for links from SE, Wikipedia, Twitter, xkcd, any image link, and a handful of others.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Take a look at http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/26867/what-damage-item-and-feat-combinations-exist-for-ki-focus-implements-in-4e and let me know if my addition clears up your question

@JonathanHobbs Is this clearer to you. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/26867/…

@besw thanks

@besw I also agree that its a bit of too much promoting

Alex P

I really want to write an answer that emphasizes "If you advertise through inappropriate channels, people will immediately write you off, just like they stop talking to their friends who try to multi-level-marketing them."

I mean... I kinda already wrote off whatever that system was. It's a knee-jerk thing.

BESW

What's a generic term for handheld devices like phones, tablets, etc?

Just "handheld devices"?

Problematic

mobile

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:06 PM

I feel like steam DICE is a super unfortunate name given the prevalence of steampowered.com (Steam of digital distribution) and DICE (of battlefield series) being a word combo that has a kajillion hits already.

yeah mobile devices

BESW

2

Q: Where is the best place to introduce your own Pen&Paper System?

I am working on a tabletop RPG (SteamDICE) that uses lots of online integration (web-based and mobile devices), but to kick start the project to the next stage, we need supporters, backers and feedback. Even a great project is worthless, if nobody knows it. What are good strategies to promote a ...

publishing

I think that works; have I clipped it too much?

@AlexP I'll say it.

Alex P

I like the edit.

BESW

Aaaand commented.

Welcome to the site! Your original post contained a lot of unnecessary promotion, which I removed; trying to shoehorn promotion into venues that have policies against it is a good way to make people lose interest in your game. Please consult the help--it's a useful introduction to the site. In particular, the behavior page has links to more appropriate ways you can advertise on this site. And once you have 20+ rep, feel free to join the chat! — BESW 12 secs ago

Alex P

I think it still captures the point of the question, including the particular features of the system that he wants to call attention to.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw, your edit looks good

BESW

3:13 PM

@AlexP I hope I captured the gist of what you were saying about promotion in my comment.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw I also feel your comment is polite, as well as accurately reflecting the site's policies

Alex P

@BESW Well put!

BESW

It's almost always better to approach things from a "maybe you didn't know" standpoint rather than a "you should have known" attitude.

That way, if it was a mistake everyone can be gracious and not look like a jerk. And even if they did know and were trying to get away with something, I still brought the issue into the open and made it clear we won't tolerate it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol yes, a certain well repped person on RPG.SE basically downvoted my first question without explaining why and I got in a comment argument with him about it. Thankfully he removed his down vote, I edited the question and it all worked out in the end, but I was seriously doubting using RPG.SE because of the lack of explanation.

Problematic

What's the plan for when he comes back around with a link to his product?

Alex P

3:18 PM

@Problematic I think it's reasonable to edit it in.

BESW

I'll happily edit the question to have the (SteamDICE) parenthetical link to his product.

Alex P

It's vaguely promotional but it's also informational.

Problematic

Fair enough.

BESW

I actually said that in the "reasons for edit" blurb.

The "advertising" bit was actually serendipitous; I was going to link to the Behavior page anyway, so having how-to-advertise-with-us links on it made that feel a bit friendlier while still pointing directly to the site policy about why his question needed to be changed.

And now it's time for another installment of Tweets to Campaign By.

DETECTIVES WANTED: SHREWD men; experience unnecessary. 1327 Vine Street, Cincinnati. VA1909

Tweeted by TweetsofOld on July 8, 2013 at 2:54 PM

Joshua Aslan Smith

that awesome

Alex P

3:33 PM

@BESW Sounds like they're looking for trainees to be Pinkertons or whatnot.

Or might be a for-profit vocational school.

BESW

Or maybe it's a Red-Headed League.

Alex P

@BESW Red League?

BESW

The Adventure of the Red-Headed League

"The Adventure of the Red-Headed League" is one of the 56 Sherlock Holmes short stories written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. It first appeared in The Strand Magazine in August 1891, with illustrations by Sidney Paget. Conan Doyle ranked "The Red-Headed League" second in his list of his twelve favorite Holmes stories. It is also the second of the twelve stories in The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, which was published in 1892. Plot summary Jabez Wilson, a London pawnbroker, comes to consult Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Watson. While studying his client, both Holmes and Watson notice his...

Basically, a Red-Headed League is a decoy organization. It solicits members in order to keep those people away from whatever's really going on.

Alternately, the "detectives" could be being set up as fall guys.

All kinds of potential in that advert.

Alex P

Yes.

BESW

Pinkertons is probably among the least likely options, actually; they'd be recruiting individuals, not en-masse, in that case.

The fact that it's an advertisement means that for whatever reason they aren't especially choosey.

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:45 PM

E. C. "Scar" Gordon was on the French Riviera recovering from a tour of combat in Southeast Asia , but he hadn't given up his habit of scanning the Personals in the newspaper. One ad in particular leapt out at him:

"ARE YOU A COWARD? This is not for you. We badly need a brave man. He must be 23 to 25 years old, in perfect health, at least six feet tall, weigh about 190 pounds, fluent English, with some French, proficient in all weapons, some knowledge of engineering and mathematics essential, willing to travel, no family or emotional ties, indomitably courageous and handsome of face and fi…

from

Glory Road

Glory Road is a fantasy novel by Robert A. Heinlein, originally serialized in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction (July - September 1963) and published in hardcover the same year. It was nominated for the Hugo Award for Best Novel in 1964. Plot summary Evelyn Cyril "E.C." Gordon (also known as "Easy" and "Flash") has been recently discharged from an unnamed war in Southeast Asia. He is pondering what to do with his future and considers spending a year traveling in France. He is presented with a dilemma: follow up on a possible winning entry in the Irish Sweepstakes or respond to a...

BESW

3:57 PM

1327 Vine St, Cincinnati, 2013, street view. http://bit.ly/15rchAp (see prev tweet)

Tweeted by TweetsofOld on July 8, 2013 at 3:52 PM

Alex P

4:10 PM

@BESW The top of that building is ADORABLE! (See the StreetView.)

BESW

Heh.

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:24 PM

subway tile and store front windows covered by blinds, perfect place for a detective

Lord_Gareth

@Ernir - I don't suppose you're present?

Hiya @JoshuaAslanSmith @BESW

BESW

What's up?

Lord_Gareth

Not much in particular. Been potentially plotting out a Legend game, also been writing the beginnings of a novel. Celebrating the bit where Tell Them, Still Angry no longer has pre-reqs

Plus wondering why Ernir put a bounty on this old PF/3.5 conversion question.

BESW

4:41 PM

Either he thinks an answer is so awesome that he's going to award extra rep for it, or he's not happy with any of the answers.

Amusingly, bounties can indicate either.

Lord_Gareth

Indeed. And since the bounty's been up for a day, I'm guessing the latter.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Yeah, well you can add a statement when you post the bounty. In the case that I posted one to reward an answer after the fact I said so in the bounty comment

Lord_Gareth

Well, we've really only settled the question of ghosts that emit or reflect visible light. Or move objects around. Or make any kind of sound. But that covers all the ones that appear in Ghostbusters, so I think we're good.

BESW

heh.

Intelligence agencies around the world wish they'd thought of Instagram.

There's gotta be a conspiracy story in there somewhere: How the CIA invented the smart phone and influenced its popularity.

Lord_Gareth

Oh please don't. One of my managers is a 9/11 Truther and I've heard too many whacked-out conspiracy theories to find them anything but tiresome anymore.

BESW

4:52 PM

Or a rogue vestige of the SS: "Ve haff vays ov making you surveil yourselfs."

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw nice, nah its for more benign in that regular people do not care/lack the education (which is another way of saying do not care) to be bothered to think about the ramifications of smartphones and what they do with them on the internet

Lord_Gareth

Heh. I think I did a good job on this thread. I co-DM an online Legend game, handling little details and forum politics for the actual DM. She asked me to open up a thread for a PC "by kicking her characterization and seeing how she kicks back."

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Oh, sure. I'm an avid fan of Computer Power and Human Reason.

But this is the kind of story a campaign could build around.

Lord_Gareth

So I thought, "You know, this character is a doctor. Why don't I have her talk with a fellow doctor?" So on a train heading towards some research opportunities, she talks to one Doctor Karlan - a convicted serial killer stalking vagrants and criminals so that he can take their organs and use them to save his patients.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hah a very dexter character

Lord_Gareth

4:57 PM

Yep. He's heading towards an execution he knows he can't escape - Karlan, in a lot of ways, was hoping that the PC would vindicate his worldview.

(She didn't)

Mother of God, Dresden Codak updated.

@BESW - Can I trawl your extensive group-dynamic knowledge for some advice?

BESW

Sure, but I'm a little punchy.

Lord_Gareth

Don't worry, it's not one of those "Gareth hates his players" questions.

In point of fact, what I'm wondering about is how I can make sure that players are okay with certain kinds of story events (such as, say, betrayals by close allies) and/or story aspects (like certain kinds of horror) without spoiling the event in question ahead of time.

BESW

Your "mother of God" led me to --mother of other deities -- mother of Celestia -- also mother of Luna -- shame Faust's ideas about their parents didn't get made canon -- it's awkward to have so many princesses without any kings or queens -- and that spontaneous princess generation thing isn't helping.

Q: How can I check whether an extremely adult/mature plot idea would be accepted by players without revealing any details of the idea itself?

I am running a post-apocalyptic zombie game with a dark and mature story, exploring a number of adult themes. I have complete buy-in from the players; some of them have stated it is their favourite role playing experience ever. One of the PCs took a Hindrance called Enemy(Major), but left the de...

gm-techniques system-agnostic social groups social-contract

Read those answers, then let me know how they didn't help.

Lord_Gareth

I shall go forth and read.

Also, if you wanted to read the scene with Karlan it is here: plothook.net/RPG/showthread.php?t=22616 <-And, as always, I am accepting writing critique (I'm Prince of Knives)

Alex P

@Lord_Gareth That's pretty good.

Lord_Gareth

5:10 PM

@AlexP Danke. I didn't really feel that subtlety was called for, y'know?

Alex P

@Lord_Gareth Subtlety is overrated. Punch 'em in the guts!

BESW

Subtlety is for when you have time to build, lay groundwork, and reel 'em in.

If you don't have luxury of that kind of time, go hard and fast and below the belt.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW - That's pretty good on the 'drawing the line' style stuff, but what about things like betrayals or other story events that sometimes make the players feel like the GM is cheating them or otherwise not 'playing fair'?

BESW

In simplest terms: they need to a) trust that you b) understand what they want out of the game, and both c) you share their goals and d) you're capable of making it happen.

Without all of those, you're going to get friction if not mutiny.

So, in order:

a) Trust. You earn their trust through actions, not through words. If they've seen you're a fair GM, they're more willing to go along when you do something that might be unfair.

b) Understanding. The Same Page Tool isn't necessary, but you've gotta have some way of getting its results. Many GMs feel that they can do this just through gut feeling based on at-table experience. Others feel it's necessary to talk with the players explicitly about this stuff. However you do it, they'll be able to tell if it's working through the way you GM.

Lord_Gareth

I tend to err on the side of talking explicitly.

BESW

5:18 PM

c) Share their goals. In line with the above, your actions as a GM will speak volumes. When you fudge things, is it in service of their goals? Do you provide scenarios that further their goals?

If you have a history of providing scenarios that further their gameplay goals, then you've got a much better shot at them believing you're d) capable of making a betrayal-type scenario work out in their interests.

There is no way I know of to make this happen except organically, in its own time. Occasionally you'll get a group that's wiling to giving an unknown GM the benefit of the doubt, and the trust and mutual understanding comes more quickly if you associate with them outside of the game too, as friends.

Lord_Gareth

AFK a bit, feel free to continue talking if you've more wisdom to share. I'm writing notes.

BESW

Being friends is important not just because it facilitates trust, but because it quickens and deepens understanding.

If you've got a player who left the theater for the alien birth in Prometheus, that's gonna tell you something about what kind of scenarios not to give the group.

If they think The Maltese Falcon was absolutely the bees' knees, convoluted plots of betrayal and leverage might be just what the doctor ordered.

And of course, if someone has a personal tragedy in their lives then the GM is going to be very careful about bringing up anything touching on that issue.

@Lord_Gareth You do realize I'm formalizing this as I go, right?

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Mrr?

BESW

Don't be fooled by the fancy numbering into thinking this is something I've worked out ahead of time.

Lord_Gareth

I didn't figure it was.

BESW

5:26 PM

These are ideas I've thought about before, but formalizing a presentation is totally off-the-cuff.

Oh, and there is ONE thing you can do to speed up the trust process: tell them, at the start of the campaign:

Problematic

Heh. "Bee's Knees." Heh.

BESW

> If there's anything going on in the game or at the table that you feel genuinely uncomfortable about, speak up. Tell me alone or in the group, during the game or after, whatever makes you most comfortable, but I can't change it if I don't know it needs fixing. I will never deliberately ridicule you or make you feel like your feelings don't matter, and if anyone else in the group does, I will take measures up to and including helping you to leave the group with me.

Then be as good as your word.

Lord_Gareth

[Nods]

BESW

Most groups probably feel that's so obvious it doesn't need to be said, but even if that's true-- sometimes saying it out loud anyway can really help.

There's behavior which is just not cool. It's easy for some players to accidentally fall into it, GM or not.

As a member of the group it's everyone's individual responsibility to help make the group safe and happy. As a GM, we often have perceived leverage we can bring to bear to that end.

In service of your original question, the issue here is that making it explicit increases their trust AND if you overstep the bounds accidentally you've already established that they can call you on it.

Lord_Gareth

This chat really needs an emote command.

BESW

5:35 PM

There are kinds of horror that I won't GM or play, and if a GM tried to bring those elements into a game I'd want to feel like I could say "I don't like that."

Heck, there are just plain some genres/settings/conceits that bore me.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Preach it.

Alex P

@BESW So many!

Lord_Gareth

@AlexP I don't suppose you read the thread I linked just below the comment you approved of earlier?

Alex P

@Lord_Gareth The answer or the plothook thing?

Lord_Gareth

Ze Plothook thing.

Alex P

5:40 PM

@Lord_Gareth I took a peak at it but I have a hard time following narrative text without really giving it my full attention, to be honest.

Lord_Gareth

S'okay

I'd just been curious. I long ago gave up food and drink in favor of surviving off of critique alone.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth ...you're an Internet reviewer?

Lord_Gareth

@BESW I laughed.

Alex P

Also, tbh, I looked and realized it was actually a session rather than a description of play and that made me feel like I was intruding into personal stuff. (I know it's not actually an intrusion if you intended others to read it. But, you know, that feeling.)

I'm trying to find the article about that but it looks like it's dead now.

Lord_Gareth

@AlexP Spectators are part of Plothook's culture.

Alex P

5:50 PM

@Lord_Gareth Yeah. It's just spectating isn't part of my culture. So I need to sit down and convince myself it's cool to be reading it. >.>

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I'm up late even for myself. Anything more you'd like me to spout about?

(Having a snack and then going to bed.)

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Yes. Why the hell did they take out the explicit statement that Scootaloo is disabled, thus making it just look like Fate is kicking her over and over by having everyone and everything else - including Twilight freaking Sparkle - learn to fly before she does?

BESW

Because, sadly, as awesome as the current dev team is, they just don't have the enormous clangers that Lauren Faust apparently sports.

It's the same reason they'll probably never actually address the fact that Applejack's parents are dead.

Lord_Gareth

I'd sorta assumed. Equestria is just too happy for absentee parents.

BESW

Faust was totally gonna make it explicit.

You know, as much as Equestria has a lot of wonderful elements, it does not seem as definitionally happy as its candy-colored chirpiness might imply.

Lord_Gareth

5:56 PM

Le sigh. With as popular as that show has become, I'm surprised Faust hasn't pulled a Rowling and just bowled the network over in favor of her art.

BESW

...Faust was off the main team as of the end of the first season.

Lord_Gareth

Bastards.

BESW

Not entirely a booted-out-the-door scenario.

There were other projects she wanted to work on.

Heck, she got MLP by pitching a totally different show and they said "No, but how about this?"

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