Sixth Barrel

1:49 AM

@Jono2906 Yes, "Kompression" is nice.

I feel that a new string compression method is unneccecary; you probably can not devise an algorithm that has a high compression ratio as high as the existing algorithms.

A__

2:26 AM

I am trying to solve this challenge, and I find it very difficult when I use Keg.

My current solution

A__

2:43 AM

Yay I solved it. (Using unofficial Keg)

A__

3:07 AM

"I never ceased to be amazed at the power of Keg." -- Jono 2906

Jono 2906

3:33 AM

Allow me to present to you a feature coming soon to Keg: Kompression! Here's a little test file I've been working on (it works, but you'd need like UTF-16). I believe it performs better than base255 encoding.

Jono 2906

3:49 AM

bit.ly/2yQXZ11

A__

4:35 AM

I think that Keg doesn't use the backtick character.

Wow. That is indeed fascinating.

Trying to compress Hello,WORLD!!! creates a syntax error.

Jono 2906

You are absolutely right about the back tick being the command that will be used

bit.ly/2YTY8eB

A__

4:57 AM

When you compress and decompress hello, world;, you get hello, world|2 instead.

I think it is better off not using the backtick; anyway, directly decompressing the source file allows the source file to be shorter.

Same with hello, world! (dekompressing returns hello, world)7)

Oh, it seems that a comma and a space (with arbitary non-instruction characters inserted between the two lexical items) triggers an alterative translation for Keg commands: , [

Jono 2906

The backtick would be for kompress and print (useful for programs with strings for printing).

Also, I'm still working on the program

A__

I am just mentioning some issues in your program.

Kompressing is useless; the source code is longer than the actual output, which makes the verbatim output string shorter than the source code;

Dekompressing the backticked string makes the program shorter than the actual output, and in turn makes source programs shorter.

The extra print trigger for the backtick is useless; you could just use implicit output to output the string.

Jono 2906

Printing hello world would be only 5 bytes rather than 15.

A__

Yes, that is dekompressing.

If you kompressed the output, printing will need 15 bytes to generate a 5-byte output.

Jono 2906

That's why I'd find a file-encoding system where everything was 1 byte

Side note: I beat the Keg rule

A__

5:14 AM

@Jono2906 May you explain what you were trying to do by finding a file-encoding system?

Side note: Evidently 4 people liked Keg programs.

Jono 2906

@A__ I believe that I once saw a file encoding system (something like UTF-8/UTF-16) that encoded almost every unicode character in 1 byte. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Jelly that used it before making it's own codepage?

Side note: Side notes are fun

A__

@Jono2906 That should be impossible; you can only encode 255 different characters in 1 byte (2 hex digits have 255 possible combinations). You should count sources in characters.

Side note: Indeed

Jono 2906

@A__ huh, I though it was something like 8943 encoding. I really can't remember

Side note:

(removed)

A__

Side note: break

Jono 2906

I asked Dennis to update keg on TIO

Jono 2906

5:32 AM

Also, any other ideas for string compression that isn't base255 (I'd like something unique if possible)

A__

Side note: I added an exponentation operator to Unofficial Keg.

Jono 2906

PR merged.

A__

The only idea in my mind is to use a lookup table. I have no other ideas.

Jono 2906

@A__ hmmm. Back to the drawing board it is then. I'll see what I come up with next!

Jono 2906

6:21 AM

Completely different note: Anyone have any clues as to how the mathematical function sine may be implemented in Keg?

Because if so, one could easily create cosine and consequently tangent in Keg

Because if I remember correctly, cos can be expressed in terms of sine. And tan can definitely be calculated using sin / cos

A__

import math

Use math.sin(); I don't know how to do that in Keg.

Jono 2906

Surely there would be a way to do trig using only stack manipulation and 100% Keg!

A__

dummies.com/education/math/trigonometry/…

That is Sine in Cosine, not Cosine in Sine.

2

Q: What is the most fundamental trigonometric function: cosine or sine?

$$\cos(\theta) = \sin \left(\tfrac{\pi}{2} - \theta\right)$$ $$\sin(\theta) = \cos \left(\tfrac{\pi}{2} - \theta\right)$$ Both are the same entity. But is sine the copy of cosine, or is cosine the copy of sine? If you really don't see any difference between these two functions, my question coul...

en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Trigonometry/Cosine_and_Sine

sin(A) = a/c

Anyway, I give up on implementing Sine in pure Keg.

Jono 2906

6:53 AM

I see. Keg+ should be able to implement it easily.

Challenge I'm attempting: codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/189705/78850

A__

7:49 AM

Side note: Even if Keg have the potential of implementing the sine function, it is still potentially longer than one character. I am going to send a PR to Unofficial Keg.

Jono 2906

Challenge I'm no longer attempting: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/189705/…

A__

Yeah, it is too hard.

Jono 2906

8:22 AM

So say Keg was to be scored in characters instead of bytes. Does that mean that, say, a 5 character Keg solution would score better than a 6 byte 05AB1E solution? Or do character counts get some sort of penalty?

I guess what I'm saying is that would it be beneficial to score Keg in characters? And if so, why don't other languages use character counts?

Because Kompression definitely gets character totals down, but increases the byte count.

A__

The canonical counting scheme is in bytes; even Jelly counts in bytes; therefore, a 6-byte 05AB1E solution will score better than a 5-character Keg solution.

Jono 2906

@A__ Ah. Well, guess I better look into base255 compression. Know any good tutorials / explanations about how it works?

(Side topic): I was wondering about the room name... I notice that other rooms for languages are named after a play on words on the actual language name. So I was thinking something like "The Supply Room" (because kegs store liquids) or something like that. Also, people who golf in Keg should be called Keggers and golfing in Keg should be called Kegging.

A__

(Side topic): Is "Power of the Supply Room" nice? (based on one of your quotes)

Jono 2906

I like it! Mind if I change the room name to that?

A__

Another name: Is "Power Supply" nice? That name was too long.

Not yet, we should discuss other possible room names.

Jono 2906

8:34 AM

Hmm. True

A__

Since we don't have other names, let us temporarily change the room name; let's see if we can come up with a shorter name.

Jono 2906

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keg?wprov=sfla1

Maybe we find inspiration here

Hold everything! I have the perfect name!!!!!

The Sixth Barrel

A__

Perfect wordplay on "The Nineteenth Byte"!

Jono 2906

A sixth barrel keg contains approximately 5.2 gallons, and is becoming the choice for many establishments and breweries that wish to use kegs smaller than a half barrel

From Wikipedia

There's also "The Eighth Barrel" if you don't like the number 6.

A__

I like all natural numbers. 6 is fine.

Jono 2906

8:44 AM

So "The Sixth Barrel" it is?

A__

True

Jono 2906

room topic changed to The Sixth Barrel : Discussion about the esolang Keg (documentation:esolangs.org/wiki/Keg). You can ask for golfing advice, new features, beginner questions of Keg, and etc. in this chatroom. [class] [code-golf] [keg] [practice] [tips]

EdgyNerd

9:02 AM

Should we make a showcase answer for Keg?

lirtosiast

9:15 AM

@Jono2906 You could use PAQ; it gets by far the best compression ratios.

2

EdgyNerd

9:30 AM

Why isn't this working as an answer for codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/163565/…, I can't work out why

0&{!0<|:i=[&1+&____|:d=[&1-&____|:m=[&2*&_____|:h=[&2/%_____|:P=[&:.&____|:e=[(_

A__

10:18 AM

@Jono2906 cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression

A__

10:44 AM

@EdgyNerd Yes, it would be nice.

EdgyNerd

11:27 AM

here's what I have so far, what should I add?

# [Keg](https://esolangs.org/wiki/Keg)

###Factoid
Keg is a stack-based golfing language, created by PPCG user [Jono 2906](https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/78850/jono-2906), that focuses on simplicity and readability. It is fairly unique compared to most other golfing-based languages, since it has few instructions, and alpha-numeric characters are automatically pushed to the stack. It also has implicit input and output.

###Length Two
```
ab
```
Since these are alpha-numeric characters, they get auto-pushed to the stack as their respective ASCII values, which in this case are 97 and…

@A__

A__

## Length 1
```
"
```
This is a unique feature in Keg that no language(so far) has implemented; it puts the top of the stack to the bottom.

EdgyNerd

Oh yep, I forgot to talk about those, I'll add that in

does this work?

###Length One
```
"
```
An example of the stack controls in Keg. This rolls the stack, which puts the top of the stack to the bottom. It is the opposite of `'`, which rolls the stack in the opposite direction, putting the bottom of the stack at the top.

@A__

A__

Here is my weird program:

## Length 9
```
9(9|:"1-)
```
An example of a recursion program in Keg. Although Keg does not support functions (in its implementation), it has enough power to do recursion. This originally inserts a sequence in the opposite direction, then through recursion it puts them in the right order.

EdgyNerd

I feel like this isn't called recursion

though I don't know what it could be called

@A__

A__

## Length 8
```
\
& &:.&
```
This demonstrates a unique feature of escaping characters and accumulator usage. The \ instruction escapes the newline (the character 10), then the accumulator is set to 10. After that, the accumulator value will be accessed and printed, resulting in 10.

Jono 2906

11:46 AM

@lirtosiast I will definitely look into that. Thanks!

EdgyNerd

At the bottom of it I want to include a link section, what links should I include?

Jono 2906

@EdgyNerd Keg's esolangs page esolangs.org/wiki/Keg

Github interpreter

TIO link

Chat room link

EdgyNerd

ok, here's the finished thing

# [Keg](https://esolangs.org/wiki/Keg)

###Factoid
Keg is a stack-based golfing language, created by PPCG user [Jono 2906](https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/78850/jono-2906), that focuses on simplicity and readability. It is fairly unique compared to most other golfing-based languages, since it has few instructions, and alpha-numeric characters are automatically pushed to the stack. It also has implicit input and output.

###Length One
```
"
```
An example of the stack controls in Keg. This rolls the stack, which puts the top of the stack to the bottom. It is the opposite of `'`, whi…

@A__

@Jono2906

A__

I have something to add. But right now I am busy.

## Length 2
```
(EdgyNerd's 2014-printing Keg program)
```
Since this is a character, this will be pushed onto the stack automatically. Keg allows Unicode characters to be pushed onto the stack, so this pushes 2014. (I am afraid to open another web page.)

## Length 2
```
ߞ
```
Since this is a character, this will be pushed onto the stack automatically. Keg allows Unicode characters to be pushed onto the stack, so this pushes 2014.

room topic changed to The Sixth Barrel : Discussion about the esolang Keg (esolangs.org/wiki/Keg). You can ask for golfing advice, new features, beginner questions of Keg, and etc. in this chatroom. [class] [code-golf] [keg] [practice] [tips]

EdgyNerd

12:11 PM

Oh oops

I just posted my answer to the showcase question without seeing yours @A__

should I delete mine and you edit yours

or the other way round?

A__

How is it possible? I have deleted my answer.

EdgyNerd

oh nvm it's gone now

just had to refresh

A__

1:49 PM

@Jono2906 Can you merge again?

I am trying to create a solution for this challenge, but I have no idea how to remove 10~30% of the characters.

Oh, I misunderstood the challenge.

A__

2:26 PM

EdgyNerd is here, so I will ask for help

Post undeleted

My current solution is ^!~$%(_|")_, which does not seem to conform the problem's specification.

@EdgyNerd Yes! that is a possible program for the Keg showcase answer!

EdgyNerd

2:49 PM

It's a community wiki answer, so you can edit it yourself if you want to :)

A__

BREAKING NEWS: New developments: now the ? commands works as it was intended! (Did anyone realize that they are avoiding using the ? command?)

Also, for loops repeating floating-point times do not create a syntax error.

EdgyNerd

Does implicit input not happen if ? is used?

A__

(By the way I don't know how Jono 2096 has implemented implicit input. When I added implicit input for ?, my program had conflicts with the previous implicit input program.)

However, I am sure that ^ and : on an empty stack takes implicit input.

Jono 2906

10:45 PM

@A__ Merged

@A__ What I guess I was trying to do was make it so that every time stack.pop() was called, it would check to see if there was enough data to pop, and if not, take input.

However, It seems there were a few flaws with my method, but I believe you may have fixed them.

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