English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2023-09-19

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alphabet

00:10

Rocket Raccoon Is a ‘Guardian of the Galaxy’—Learn How YOU Can Be a Guardian of Raccoons

CowperKettle

00:21

Word of the night: brain microbiome frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcimb.2023.1123228/full

MetaEd

00:51

@CowperKettle Today and most days's it's "trombone" (v.i.)

1 hour later…

MetaEd

01:55

Bing Crosby "beginning to play trombone" - starting to need

CowperKettle

02:53

@MetaEd Nice expression! Never heard it

1 hour later…

CowperKettle

03:54

Robots, Acemoglu found, destroyed jobs and lowered wages. "That was an eye-opener," he says. "People thought it would not be possible to have such negative effects from robots."

Butlerian Jihad quotes of the Day.

3 hours later…

Xanne

07:20

Wordle 822 3/6

⬜🟩🟩⬜🟩
🟨🟩🟩⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

CowperKettle

08:13

> While visits shall be paid on solemn days,
When num'rous wax-lights in bright order blaze,
While nymphs take treats, or assignations give,
So long my honour, name, and praise shall live!

In Russian, assignation is a banknote (ассигнация)

Assignation ruble

The Assignation ruble (Russian: ассигнационный рубль; assignatsionny rubl) was the first paper currency of the Russian Empire. It was used from 1769 until 1849. The Assignation ruble had a parallel circulation with the silver ruble; there was an ongoing market exchange rate for these two currencies. Initially at parity with the silver ruble, the value of the Assignation ruble fell considerably below that of the silver ruble, finally settling at 3.50 Assignation rubles per silver ruble in the 1840s. == History == In 1768, during the reign of Catherine the Great, the Russian Assignation Bank was...

Vikas

08:40

> Windows and Surface chief Panos Panay is leaving Microsoft

Windows exec Panos Panay being depressed for 2 minutes

So it makes sense why he was depressed during Windows 11 launch. He wanted to leave.

CowperKettle

Or maybe forgot to take his antidepressant

Vikas

09:06

> Twitter or X Could Soon Become Paid for Everyone, Musk Says This is the Only Viable Way to Deal with Bots

2 hours later…

jlliagre

10:42

Shouldn't it be become paid for for everyone?

Laurel

10:59

@jlliagre No, paid is the opposite of free here but has the same grammar. paid for would mean that it was already a paid product but someone purchased a license for everyone

1 hour later…

M.A.R.

12:00

@Vikas you know, if it was me trolling people like this, by this point everyone would have already ignored me

Laurel

12:16

@M.A.R. That's why they're removing the ignore ("block") feature

Robusto

12:40

@M.A.R. I'm sorry, were you saying something?

#Worldle #606 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
⭐⭐⭐🏙️
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

Mitch

13:14

Some good news today...

No Link Between Most Cancers and Depression/Anxiety

My @CowperKettle med news link of the day

> Depression and anxiety were not associated with outcomes for most cancer types, including breast cancer, prostate cancer, and alcohol-related cancer, according to findings from a large, individual participant data meta-analysis.

An exception was for lung and smoking-related cancers, but key covariates appeared to explain the relationship between depression, anxiety, and these cancer types, the investigators reported.

To be clear, and the article isn't clear(or I'm just not accustomed to the pragmatics of med journal writing), but this is about prior depression/anxiety.

Also 'outcomes' is too broad for me. Presumably includes death but also I guess quality of life (measured quantitatively)...

I'm having trouble thinking of what else.

I presume that increased depression and anxiety are an established correlate of a cancer diagnosis, ie after the diagnosis.

I mean cancer isn't likely to -organically- cause anxiety or depression, but is likely to psychologically cause it.

So anyway, if you're depressed or anxious about your depression or anxiety causing cancer, you now have one less thing to be depressed or anxious about.

If you're nostalgic (another mood disorder) for depression or anxiety, I can remind you of things to be depressed or anxious about.

There.

I just did!

It's like when people say 'not to mention global warming...'

👏 They 👏 just 👏 did 👏

"You probably think this song is about you"

If you keep saying that over and over so much, it kinda is about them now.

CowperKettle

13:33

@Mitch Thank you, that's interesting. I remember that some scientists hypothesized that schizophrenia might be associated with decreased rates of cancer

Lambie

14:05

@Mitch Being nostalgic is a mood disorder?

CowperKettle

14:17

@Mitch I'm feeling better now on 200 mcg 5-MTHF in addition to my venlafaxine, but it could be fleeting. Keeping fingers crossed, and using a hydrocortisone ointment on the backs of my hands daily..

user image

I gave away a bag of cat feed that turned out incompatible with my cat.

The woman seemed happy.

user image

I caused a dopamine trough in a squirrel by pretending to have a nut in my hand.

I hope the squirrel did not develop depression from it..

Vikas

😂

CowperKettle

The thing is, I only take one walnut to each run, and on that run I had already given the only walnut to a different squirrel

Vikas

@CowperKettle Do you open the walnut hard "cover" or they themselves open it?

CowperKettle

@Vikas I crack it slightly open just before giving it to them

Vikas

OK

CowperKettle

14:23

Because some easily would crack any nut, and some don't seem to crack it.

Vikas

Ah

CowperKettle

I would take shelled walnut, but I'm afraid it will turn into dust and will go dirty in my running bag.

Michael Rybkin

Could you please tell me if this sounds fine to you guys as native English speakers?

It's difficult to put it into words.

CowperKettle

The natives haven't woken up yet, it's morning in the central states of the US

alphabet

14:43

@MichaelRybkin Yes, that's fine. ("It's difficult to put into words" is also correct, without the second "it"; this changes the syntax but not, in this case, the meaning.)

CowperKettle

URGENT: Ex-Google CBO says AI is now IMPOSSIBLE to stop with Mo Gawdat

Sorry for doomposting in chat.

jlliagre

15:11

@Laurel Thanks. So 'paid' can mean either payant or payé while 'free' can mean gratuit or libre, how confusing :-)

Mitch

@Lambie Nostalgia is a mild form of homesickness which is a mild form of agoraphobic dysphoria which is a fancy word for a bunch of stuff I just made up

Like being a jerk (which should be considered a disorder) is a mild form of narcissism which is a mild form of psychopathy which is a mild form of that one guy in Trainspotting who started fights because he liked it.

@MichaelRybkin "It's difficult to put into words" is usually what people say. But if context says you're talking about something specific that you want to point out, then the extra 'it' is perfectly fine.

@CowperKettle That'd be a strange tradeoff to have to consider.

Vikas

15:28

Spanish word of the day: Vamos

Verb: vamos

Obsolete form of vamoose.
vamos
first-person plural imperative of ir
vamos
inflection of ir:

(7 more not shown…)

Interjection: vamos!

let's go
come on! (an expression of encouragement)
vamos
come on! (expression of encouragement)

CowperKettle

> New study has linked the common artificial sweetener ‘aspartame’, in much lower doses than those deemed safe by FDA, with learning and memory deficits in mice news.fsu.edu/news/health-medicine/2023/09/18/…

> Spanish vamos is after Latin vadamus, 'we go', from the verb vadere, 'to go', that blended with the verb ire in Vulgar Latin.

Vikas

I heard it in a game.

They kept calling me vamos! Vamos!

Lambie

@Mitch Nostalgia and agoraphobia are related? Ha ha.

Laurel

19

Q: What is the difference between free as in beer and free as in speech?

In open source the term "free" is often used, sometimes with a qualifier, "free as in beer" or "free as in speech". What is meant with these qualifications?

freedoms terminology

"This is a confusion that can be quite confusing." XD

Michael Rybkin

15:45

@alphabet Thank you

@Mitch Thank you

alphabet

Can we banish the name of this badge on ELU? english.stackexchange.com/help/badges/12/strunk-white

Any respectable ELU user should know that a badge named "Strunk & White" is an insult

Laurel

16:02

31

Q: Renaming of "Strunk & White" badge

Strunk & White has been criticized by linguists. The reasons (at a very high level) are that it is prescriptivist (and some style manuals in the US such as the Chicago Manual of Style have become quite liberal (meaning more descriptivist) recently) and linguists have demonstrated that it is incor...

feature-request badge-request

Lambie

@alphabet I just found the person I was confusing with you. The French person. Wow, how silly of me. [No, sorry, can't tell you.]

Laurel

@Lambie Someone named "l'alphabet"?

Lambie

No, not at all. No organic connection to that at all.

alphabet

16:28

@Lambie There aren't many raccoons in France. (I think they're an invasive species there.)

CowperKettle

17:00

> Metformin also reduces muscle atrophy. Their findings were published in the journal Aging Cell. scitechdaily.com/…

Curious. Small study, but if confirmed, the mechanism could be further researched.

alphabet

17:48

I have decided to switch from only consuming milk to only consuming energy drinks. It's called the "contraindicated in epilepsy diet"

(Sarcasm, in case anyone freaks out)

So @Lambie, people seem quite sharply split on the "did so" question (as they were in chat). Based on the responses, I think that the conclusion, if we're being good descriptivists, is that the sentence is marginal and accepted by some speakers but not others.

My suspicion is that this has to do with the fact that the complement refers back to the subject, and to the fact that to-PPs are also commonly found in adjunct function; these factors likely make some people find it acceptable to exclude the "to my father" phrase from the anaphora.

It does, of course, break the usual do so rules. I think that, for speakers who accept this sentence, it can likely be accounted for by adding a (quite limited) exception to such rules. People seem to avoid this construction in practice--I haven't found similar examples in corpora--so it may be a moot point to anyone who's not a syntactician.

(Of course, the prescriptive types are welcome to insist that The Rules Say You Can't, but certainly that isn't an approach H&P would endorse.)

Laurel

18:09

@alphabet This is directed at me isn't it????

:p

jlliagre

18:41

@alphabet Would the prince had addressed him as ‘brother’ before the King did so to his father be such an example?

alphabet

@jlliagre That example doesn't work because there's nothing for "to his father" to be a complement of

Cerberus

@alphabet Why sarcasm, rather than irony?

MetaEd

19:20

@Laurel I'd like to time things just right to earn the Strunk & White for editing this question.

MetaEd

19:45

@CowperKettle that's clever marketing. catfood that is incompatible with cats depending on their sexuality and alteration thereof

Robusto

@Laurel If it hasn't happened in 11 years, don't expect miracles at this juncture.

jlliagre

@alphabet What about: Where he hadn't kissed Emma Jean's hand, he did so to her mother's?

Laurel

@Robusto I don't expect it to change, but I might as well put to use my near eidetic mental repository of Meta SE posts

jlliagre

20:13

You sent to England for Dr. Dimsdale, and refusing to allow him to experiment first, as he wished, on any of your Majesty’s subjects, insisted on his inoculating you with the deadly virus in secret, before he did so to your son and others.

MetaEd

@jlliagre Personally, I prefer a nice Wensleydale.

Robusto

@jlliagre I think that works. I'd prefer to lead with Whereas instead of Where, since the latter is a shade ambiguous (it could refer to a place on the hand in question).

🌎 Sep 19, 2023 🌍
🔥 35 | Avg. Guesses: 4.31
🟨🟥🟥🟩 = 4

globle-game.com
#globle

Wordle 822 3/6

⬛⬛⬛🟨⬛
🟨⬛🟩⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Lambie

20:33

@alphabet You cannot exclude to my father in I gave 100 dollars to my father unless you are making a charitable contribution ("I gave 100 dollars"). The anaphora replaces the entire phrase.

You sent to England for Dr. Dimsdale, and refusing to allow him to experiment first, as he wished, on any of your Majesty’s subjects,[something is wrong here or missing like you] insisted on his inoculating you with the deadly virus in secret, before he did so to your son and others.

alphabet

21:13

@Lambie It seems many speakers have intuitions that disagree with yours, unfortunately, strong though yours may be.

jlliagre

Wordle 822 4/6

⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
🟨⬜🟨⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

alphabet

As is fairly common, of course; there are plenty of sentences that speakers disagree on whether they're correct. (That sentence is one of them.)

MetaEd

@alphabet aaaaaaa

jlliagre

#waffle606 5/5

🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩⭐🟩⭐🟩
🟩🟩⭐🟩🟩
🟩⭐🟩⭐🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

🔥 streak: 9
wafflegame.net

Cerberus

@alphabet Ugh!!

I expected you to like that sentence without they.

alphabet

21:25

@Cerberus That is a sentence some people's dislike of confuses me.

@Cerberus If you remove the "they," it's even less grammatical, since it breaks the gap constraint rules.

MetaEd

@alphabet aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Cerberus

@alphabet That's another issue!

Or two.

alphabet

Indeed.

Cerberus

@alphabet But it is what I have seen you propound earlier!

alphabet

Most native speakers will reject sentences like "there are plenty of sentences that speakers disagree on whether are correct."

Cerberus

21:29

I would hate it too.

alphabet

The question is: does replacing the are with they're make it better?

Cerberus

It makes an extremely awkward sentence grammatically indefensible.

So it goes from no to no.

jlliagre

Daily Quordle 603
4️⃣5️⃣
6️⃣8️⃣
m-w.com/games/quordle/

alphabet

@Cerberus Perhaps. I haven't a complete understanding of such things. (Ok, that one's easier.)

jlliagre

21:49

Rootl game #110

🟩🟩⬛⬛🟩⬛🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

⬛⬛⬛🟩🟩🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

⬛🟩⬛🟩🟩🟩🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

rootlgame.net

Robusto

Rhiannon Giddens - Wayfaring Stranger

Somehow I never heard of her before today.

Wow, what a talent.

Cerberus

22:03

@alphabet This sentence is perfectly normal?

I suppose in North America it is less common to use non-auxiliary haven't.

alphabet

22:29

@Cerberus Indeed.

Mitch

22:50

@Cerberus Or rather in the US, eg, 'I haven't a clue' sounds like a Britishism (to me that is).

So @Lambie, which vocabulary items or ways of chatspeak were there that made you think I was someone you knew?

Cerberus

@Mitch Are you sure Canada is different?

Robusto

23:07

Daily Quordle 603
9️⃣7️⃣
3️⃣5️⃣
m-w.com/games/quordle/

@Cerberus Canada has certain slight differences, but in the main it might as well be American.

Mitch

23:44

@Cerberus no I'm not sure CanE is like or not BrE.

Cerberus

@Robusto Exactly.

So I didn't understand @Mitch's comment.

Mitch

CanE sounds more like AmE. Or mostly like AmE except for a small handful of zingers.

@Cerberus can you clarify what it is you don't understand so that I can then clarify more so you do?

Or should I clarify that?

Cerberus

You responded to a supposition of mine.

I didn't understand your response.

Mitch

Ok I'll try again

@Cerberus in the US they do not use 'i haven't a ...' in place of I do not have a ...' to do so sounds very British. I don't know about Canada for sure but I suspect they do the same as US.

Does that make more sense now?

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Sep '2319

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