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1:56 AM
:28531832
 
 
6 hours later…
8:16 AM
The twin towers were not called twin for nothing. Is not it a double negative?
Can anybody explain to me such sentences with "for no reason" and "for nothing"?
 
8:39 AM
"For" means "with reference to".
 
@JustynaNogala "I'm not called cool without a reason." -> "There is a reason people call me cool."
 
yeah I got this
but when "for nothing" is used
I get confused.
 
It's the same as "without a reason".
 
They don't call me big for nothing. (I'm big)
 
8:41 AM
The were not called twin for no reason.
 
and it's not a double negative?
 
It is kind of sarcastic
 
I know what it sounds like.
Just want to know if such a construction is correct.
 
@)
 
9:43 AM
Type "black comedy" + "racism" into Google. ;) — David Blomstrom Mar 24 at 2:31
Gee, it seems everything with the word "black" can mean something racist.
-1 for racist smileys. — mmyers Mar 12 '10 at 21:25
 
 
2 hours later…
11:38 AM
On another note, as it's Easter -
Christ is risen!
 
11:49 AM
On yet another note - I'm trying to find a canonical answer to close the following as duplicates: (1) english.stackexchange.com/q/316067/142322; and (2) english.stackexchange.com/questions/291092/…. I've found this:
76
A: What is the correct possessive for nouns ending in "‑s"?

JSBձոգչYour example sentences confuse two different problems. For nouns that are plural (such as "boys"), the possessive formed in writing by adding an apostrophe after the plural -s. This is pronounced the same as the plural and the singular possesive: The boys' books [boys' sounds like boys] Fo...

There are 2 issues: (1) is the "boss's" convention indisputable; and (2) it doesn't list authoritative sources. Anyone up for some editing?
 
Sigh. It won't be Easter here until May.
 
The Easter bunny can't be everywhere at the same time :-)
 
Lazy little bugger.
 
@Lawrence Well, that answer looks pretty spot on to me and JSBձոգչ is a pretty good authority themselves. I would just close 2 as GR, however.
My rue of thumb is pronunciation. If I pronounce the 's, I use it. If I don't I just use an apostrophe with no s. So The Jones's car but My friends' car.
 
12:04 PM
Why did you use "themselves"?
 
@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ Singular "themselves"
 
JS is a pretty good authority "themselves"
Must be idiomatic.
 
@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ It (well, them) has come into fashion as gender-neutral singular. A little weird on first presentation, but there's no real alternative for established single word pronouns. There's the gender-neutral it, of course, but that's more of an insult when used to refer to a human.
 
Right, thanks.
Btw @Lawrence Happy Easter :-)
 
12:25 PM
@terdon Thanks, I suppose the number of up-votes is telling, but I thought it might need references if it was to be considered a canonical answer.
Looking at (2) again, its sample sentence has improper hyphenation and no words requiring an apostrophe.
 
@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ Gender neutral, singular themselves.
 
@Sᴋᴜʟʟᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ :)
 
@Lawrence Yeah, I voted to close 2 as off topic -> general reference and 1 as a dupe of the one you suggested.
 
32
A: Which singular names ending in “s” form possessives with only a bare apostrophe?

tchristThe most useful rule — and the most general and the easiest to remember — is simply that you add ’s whenever you actually say an extra /əz/ at the end when forming the possessive, compared with how you say the non-possessive version. Let your own ear be your guide. That’s all there is to it. No ...

 
@Lawrence there's your authority ^^
 
12:28 PM
CMOS says to do what I do, but I refuse to appeal to authority instead of to reason.
 
Man, it took me a few seconds to expand CMOS to Chicago Manual of Style instead of complementary metal–oxide–semiconductor.
Hmm, no that's not what CMOS in CMOS battery stands for, is it?
 
Complementary metal–oxide–semiconductor (CMOS) /ˈsiːmɒs/ is a technology for constructing integrated circuits. CMOS technology is used in microprocessors, microcontrollers, static RAM, and other digital logic circuits. CMOS technology is also used for several analog circuits such as image sensors (CMOS sensor), data converters, and highly integrated transceivers for many types of communication. In 1963, while working for Fairchild Semiconductor, Frank Wanlass patented CMOS (US patent 3,356,858). CMOS is also sometimes referred to as complementary-symmetry metal–oxide–semiconductor (or COS-MOS)...
 
Ah, yes it is. Originally.
 
An image sensor or imaging sensor is a sensor that detects and conveys the information that constitutes an image. It does so by converting the variable attenuation of waves (as they pass through or reflect off objects) into signals, the small bursts of current that convey the information. The waves can be light or other electromagnetic radiation. Image sensors are used in electronic imaging devices of both analog and digital types, which include digital cameras, camera modules, medical imaging equipment, night vision equipment such as thermal imaging devices, radar, sonar, and others. As technology...
 
12:47 PM
@terdon I suppose that's persuasive, especially with the CMoS that tchrist himself just mentioned. As an edge case for me, I was looking for a more substantial link to established conventions.
 
Are you one of those people who were taught wrong and are now seeking redress?
 
@tchrist I are
 
I think tchrist's answer would be the better dupe target. His reasoning goes into more detail, but I already voted to close as a dupe of the other. If you cast a close vote as a dupe of tchrist's, both will be listed when the question is closed. I tried to find the relevant CMS section online but it was behind a paywall.
 
@tchrist I could pretend you weren't talking to me :) . I was just taught a simple rule on this matter - if it ends with an s, just tack on a bare apostrophe to get the possessive. I'd be quite happy with the write-as-spoken rule of thumb, except that English isn't always written as spoken. I'm not seeking redress, just wondering how far back this convention goes.
 
12:55 PM
@Lawrence That's inaccurate. A good exception is some proper nouns ending in <s> that still get the apostrophe and the s.
 
You were mistaught: an apostrophe is not pronounced, but a possessive is.
 
Redress is better than cross dress.
 
@IͶΔ Yes, those are part of the issue.
 
The rule is always write what you say.
That is the whole of the Law and the Prophets.
 
@tchrist It's possible that the simple rule was taught as a simplification, but either way, I'm interested in how old this convention is.
 
12:57 PM
What, how old the thing you were mistaught is?
People have been confused for a long time, because people are well, you know.
But this is clear, and it is simple, and it is obvious.
The original sin is from the uneducated attributing sounds to punctuation instead of to letters.
 
@tchrist Well, less than 50 years, but I'd be interested to know if the convention you mentioned goes back at least 100.
 
@Lawrence Strunk.
And it was not new then.
See Rule #1.
 
@tchrist Ok, I'll look it up. Got to go now, plan to check back later. Bye, and thanks!
 
1:17 PM
@Lawrence ^^
 
That would be Strunk's Rule #1, which was already so often messed up by people unclear on the concept very nearly a hundred years ago when he wrote it that he gave it the prize positioning of being the Very First Rule for his Elements of Style.
 
1:32 PM
The New York Times manual of style seems to be somewhere in the middle. It doesn't go as far as to say "just write what you would say", but it comes close:
That's from a 1975 edition.
 
They don’t explain why one writes Sophocles’ plays, just admit that one does. I prefer appealing to reason.
 
@tchrist Would you write Arkansas's? I think I would have chosen Arkansas'.
Not sure I've ever been called to speak that out loud though.
 
If I add the sound, I write the letter.
If I add no sound, I add no letter.
Consider the works of Dumas or Camus.
 
@tchrist Sure, but do you add the sound for Arkansas'?
Ah. Yes, I guess you do. I forgot the s is silent in the singular.
 
Yep.
Which is way weird, but there it is.
blames the Frenches
 
 
1 hour later…
2:49 PM
@tchrist Like blaming the English for all of India's problems. Wait...
Sunday trifecta! Upset three ethnicities at the same time!!!
 
3:00 PM
 
3:24 PM
@terdon Thanks for the photos - much appreciated. I've also managed to pull up a copy of Strunk & White. The bare-apostrophe seems to be really old school if the classics used it (e.g. Achilles' heel), but there's enough in the photos to show that the style has since shifted, and that the shift is not particularly recent. I have the most difficulty with the -ce' s- form, e.g. experience' sake. It's fine as form-follows-speech, but really odd otherwise. (It is like a/an, I suppose.)
 
@Lawrence Er, no.
It’s because those words already end in unstressed /iz/. That blocks the addition.
This is why people are not friends with the -lily adverbs.
It’s productively restricted.
 
@tchrist The explanation in the style guides is that the s- in the next word is a significant factor in using a bare -ce'.
 
It is no more possible to speak of Achilles’s heel than it is to take the trash out weeklily.
That's Arnold Zwicky quoting someone else.
> (Card-carrying linguists have looked at -lily words. See, for example, Lise Menn & Brian MacWhinney, "The repeated morph constraint", Language, 1984. )
I’m pretty sure that’s why we can have farmers, farmer’s and farmers’ — but not, at least in standard English, *farmers’s.
There’s a constraint against repetition of the same morpheme. We form plurals and possessives the same way phonologically, so you cannot apply both rules.
 
@tchrist I agree with weeklily being poorly constructed, but the issue with Achilles's involves a construct that has several exceptions, e.g. the pronunciation Moses-es is an accepted pronunciation. (Note, though, that I'm not arguing for the Achilles-es pronunciation.)
 
Moses doesn’t end in /iz/.
That is, with the sound of the English word ease.
 
3:37 PM
@tchrist But neither does farmers.
 
Yes, and?
We make a distinction between words ending in /z/ that are plural and those that are singular.
 
I was off reading the excerpt. Looks like an interesting article.
 
@Lawrence How does that make it old school? The Classics were not written in English, the fact that we use that form for some ancient names does not in any way imply that said convention is old.
 
In all my long life, I have never to this day yet heard a single person say my boss’s ideas in a way that sounds like my boss ideas — no, not even once. And that is what this is all about.
@terdon No, no, no.
 
@tchrist ?
 
3:40 PM
Oh, mistype.
Sorry.
The ancient names ending in /i:z/ are different in the possessive because we don’t say specieses and serieses either. For the very same reason.
Singular words already ending in /i:z/ are invariant in the plural, the possessive, and the possessive plural.
For reasons purely phonological.
It actually has nothing to do with the fact that they’re old. Consider series not Ceres.
 
@tchrist I was responding to your note that Moses doesn't end in /iz/, which I took as your reasoning for allowing the Moses-es pronunciation. My note about farmers also not ending in /iz/ was saying that the logic doesn't hold. (Though I agree that farmers's leads to an awkward pronunciation.)
 
How many Mercedes have you ever driven?
How many Socrates have you ever known?
How many species have you ever named?
 
Mercedes does end in that /iz/ you mentioned.
 
It certainly does.
IPA for the English word ease is /iz/, or [i:z].
 
So it isn't applicable in explaining the awkwardness of farmers's.
 
3:47 PM
If you have a singular farmer, you are permitted to inflect it for the plural or for the possessive, but not both because these are identical phonologically, and so either blocks the other.
But this is true for any word.
 
I thought you were relating Moses to /iz/. We may be talking at cross purposes.
 
/iz/ blocks either construction.
When unstressed.
The English plural and the English possessive are phonologically identical.
And there can be only one.
 
Ok, summary: pronunciation dictates the form of the possessive. Doubled /iz/(es) are awkward. We're agreed on these points.
 
The double inflection is always blocked.
You can never have more than one.
 
Only for doubled /iz/?
 
3:54 PM
And unstressed /iz/ blocks both.
No.
For whatever you do to make the inflection of either.
 
Or like Moses-es also?
 
No.
Only if there is a single Mose.
 
@tchrist Oh, I see what you're referring to - like * farmers-es.
 
Take a singular word, any word. What you have to do make the plural and what you have to do make the possessive are phonologically identical, but there are three rules, as seen in kit versus kid versus kitsch.
 
Aargh, how do I get the star next to the word?
 
3:57 PM
Carefully.
 
:)
@tchrist Ok, by your reference to double inflection, I understand you to mean making it plural and adding a possessive. You can only pronounce these once per word, even if both are present.
 
Sometimes it’s /s/ and sometimes it’s /z/ and sometimes it's /əz/, but it doesn’t matter. It’s the same rules for plural as for possessive, and you do not get to do both.
kit > kits, kit’s is /s/.
kid > kids, kid’s is /z/.
 
Kids's's's's's
 
And kitsch is a mass noun, so it’s exempt. :)
 
Who knew buzzing would be so fun?
 
4:01 PM
The point is that kits, kit’s, kits’ are homophones, just as kids, kid’s, kids’ are.
Bees.
 
@tchrist Those are fine. I think we're in agreement there. Not sure what you're getting at with kitsch and the mass noun, though.
 
Churches has the /əz/ rule.
The point is that there is just one rule, and it applies to plurals and possessives alike. But you cannot apply it more than once.
 
Wait, back up - what was the thing about kitsch?
 
It’s a mass noun so there’s no plural to compare it with.
 
Oh, so no *kitsches.
 
4:04 PM
If you’re trying to get me to sanction writing or saying a kiss’ touch, I never shall. That’s always wrong.
Because absolutely nobody talks that way.
Remember that the apostrophe is silent.
It is not a letter.
It carries no sound.
 
No, no, I just don't really use the word kitsch in conversation.
Had to look it up.
 
Are you a native speaker?
Perhaps from a region that’s free of kitsch? :)
 
Close enough. I'm not Caucasian.
 
Not following.
 
Ha ha :)
 
4:07 PM
Oh, you did not grow up in the Anglosphere.
 
@tchrist Some define native speakers to include ethnicity.
 
Insane people?
 
:)
Anyway, it's not usually relevant, so I don't usually bring it up.
 
I understand, Thomas Edward.
 
This guy? Or the tank engines again?
 
4:10 PM
Thomas Edward Lawrence CB DSO (16 August 1888 – 19 May 1935) was a British archaeologist, military officer, and diplomat. He was renowned for his liaison role during the Sinai and Palestine Campaign and the Arab Revolt against Ottoman Turkish rule of 1916–18. The breadth and variety of his activities and associations, and his ability to describe them vividly in writing, earned him international fame as Lawrence of Arabia—a title used for the 1962 film based on his First World War activities. Lawrence was born out of wedlock in Tremadog, Wales in August 1888 to Sir Thomas Chapman and Sarah Junner...
 
Ha! If anyone should have got that, it was me. :)
 
Aye.
 
What about your handle?
 
What of it?
 
Is it your name, or does the christ part signify anything?
 
4:13 PM
Standard Unix login composed of my first and last names.
Since time immemorial.
 
Ok.
 
It means me, nothing more nor one whit less.
Happy Easter, anyway. :)
 
:)
Yes, happy Easter. I was actually hoping for the traditional reply earlier.
I'd written Christ is risen!
 
Oh, I missed it.
Indeed.
The Paschal Greeting, also known as the Easter Acclamation, is an Easter custom among Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic Christians. Instead of "hello" or its equivalent, one is to greet another person with "Christ is Risen!", and the response is "Truly, He is Risen," "Indeed, He is Risen," or "He is Risen Indeed" (compare Matthew 27:64, Matthew 28:6–7, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6, Luke 24:34). In some cultures, such as in Russia and Serbia, it is also customary to exchange a triple kiss of peace on the alternating cheeks after the greeting. Similar responses are also used in the...
 
@tchrist No matter. I figured many people are on holidays.
I just thought it would be quickly picked up, with the group's interest in history, language, culture, etc.
 
4:17 PM
I did make some noise after the all-night vigil, but no one picked up on it.
They probably didn't approve of the hats. :)
 
:)
 
> La Madrugá, la noche más intensa y esperada de la Semana Santa en Sevilla.
That is, the most intense and hoped-for night of Holy Week in Seville.
 
@tchrist It's certainly elaborate. Reminiscent of the cathedral steins(?).
 
"Steins" meaning stones?
Or large mugs?
There is no place in the world like Seville during Holy Week. No where.
 
Ha ha. I'm not sure of the proper word, but I was referring to the elaborate pictures or carvings sometimes found on cathedral walls. Not the stained glass, more tangible, I think.
 
4:23 PM
Oh right.
I'm blanking.
I do know what you mean. Perhaps engravings? Hm, no.
 
Yeah. And on that note, I'll sign off :) . Nice chatting with you.
 
Don't go without the hats! :)
 
Why thank you, how thoughtful :) .
 
That reads: If you plan to dance the Macarena, green and purple hats are obligatory. :)
Have a nice morning.
Or day.
Or evening.
 
I'm sure it says no such thing :) . I don't read ... Spanish(?), but what I can make out sounds quite different.
 
4:27 PM
Or night.
 
:)
Yes, and likewise.
 
tchrist, nice putdown. But you would only get maximum points for "you, sir, are a layer". (sir was in the wrong place)
 
4:49 PM
Hullo @JavaLatte! Welcome to chat
It's funny how stuff that'd get downvoted to oblivion on meta.SE gets upvotes on per site metas.
 
5:10 PM
a propos de quoi?
 
3
Q: Bullying newcomers?

SergueiI've made a few attempts to ask/answer a question. Complete fail! Almost all of my questions/answers were deleted. Probably I'm an idiot, but how come that the question about "And" at the beginning of a sentence is nice, respectable and merits exposing for years, while my question about "Which...

 
I don't really have much to do with metas. I'm a newbie (simpers innocently).
 
1
Q: What is the word for making a point by saying nothing?

Penny RossInstead of commenting on what he regarded as a ridiculous proposal he conveyed his disapproval by saying nothing at all. This is an example of xxxxxx.

Next HNQ
 
5:28 PM
certainly the bar is a lot higher on stackoverflow than on ELL. But most of the people on stackexchange are professionals: they are constantly using SO to find the information they need to do their jobs, so when they frame a question, it's more often than not a good one. ELL, different clientele.
 
@JavaLatte What? Certainly not!
While the bar is a bit higher, question quality on ELL is much more than SO's question quality.
Do you want evidence?
 
crl
Usted bebe cafe con latte escribiendo Java codigo?
prefiero JavaScripto ahora
 
Turns on translator
 
crl
trying to communicate with JavaLatte :)
oh latte is italian no Spanish, I'm dumb, leche of course
 
أيوا، باشرب قهوة بلبن
 
crl
5:44 PM
ça fait longtemps que je n'ai pas bu de café ni de lait
my coffee is fruits, same effect I guess, while probably more healthy
 
Does ELL give you a buzz, like coffee?
 
crl
no, why?
 
It seems to have that effect on me. Can't sleep after I have answered a difficult question.
 
Don't you dare say that that is more high-quality than ELL.
 
crl
Well I use more SO, and more the chatrooms that the Q&A :), my grammar is too bad for ELL
 
5:49 PM
NI DE LAIT ???? Pourquoi pas?
 
crl
bof, ni de chocolat, je suis à moitié fou depuis 4-5 ans :), vécu une expérience assez extrème durant 2 ans, sans depenser d'argent, pour des raisons inavouables, mais mon état de santé (amaigri) a provoqué des TOCs (OCDs)
Now I start spending more money, and am a bit less crazy
but I believe most people are crazy, crazyness is just a synonym for difference I guess:) back to work :p
 
Not most people, but anybody worth talking to.
@IͶΔ... sorry... evidence, you said?
 
@JavaLatte Don't directly add three dots after pinging me. It won't ping me.
 
crl
evidence as proof I guess
 
I will bear that in mind for future pingings.
 
6:01 PM
12 mins ago, by IͶΔ
http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=%22pls+halp%22
 
crl
can't tell if those are trolls or serious :)
 
pls halp :-)
 
crl
my cod (<seen this fishy typo once) doesn't work
 
Ok, it's not a good question, but all the information needed to answer it is right there: ...allocate a 284505748 byte... ". He wouldn't have needed a pencil to work it out.
Saw a sign in a car today: "Life hat's me".
 

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