English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2015-03-08 (page 1 of 2)

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12:52 AM

> We have an interest in a good TTIP that becomes a gold standard agreement. We do not want to see this opportunity jeopardized by the inclusion of provisions on Investor-State Dispute Settlement which are not acceptable to the Socialists and Democrats Group, a majority in the European Parliament, and the general public.

This is a case where a clear choice between that without comma and which with comma would have prevented ambiguity.

I perceive none.

Is ISDS sometimes acceptable to the S&D, or never?

Did they forget a comma, or was it left out on purpose?

Perhaps I should look up the German/etc. versions.

> Now, that could mean two different things. Either:

We do not want to see this opportunity jeopardized by the inclusion of provisions on ISDS, since these will be unacceptable.

Or:

We do not want to see this opportunity jeopardized by the inclusion of provisions on ISDS if they take a form that is unacceptable.

It’s obviously restrictive.

> ...
What this means in practice, as in the US, is that the politicians will continue to try to gauge the public mood as they re-calibrate their responses. The latest statement by the S&D Group is part of that complex dance: an important rejection of corporate sovereignty, but by no means a definitive one.

Why obviously?

No comma.

12:59 AM

You're assuming they stick to all the major conventions and don't make any typos.

I have no idea who they are.

The S&D.

If you put a comma there, it won’t even read right.

The socialists are the second-largest party in parliament; they hold the key to accepting or rejecting TTIP.

@tchrist It would read right to me?

No, its number would be wrong.

1:01 AM

What number?

The comma would require an antecedent of inclusion, not of provisions. So it would have to be is with the comma.

Huh?

Which refers to provisions either way.

I don’t think so.

Is it the inclusion which is unacceptable, or the provisions?

Arguments?

@tchrist Both or either: in practice, the distinction is moot.

I don’t understand the problem you seem to see.

1:03 AM

But it must refer to provisions, since it is plural.

Yes, and if you used a comma, it would stop referring to provisions and therefore require a singular verb.

The problem is: if the which clause is restrictive, that means some provisions on ISDS are acceptable to the S&D.

@tchrist Why? I disagree.

Enjoy.

That would be bad: ISDS is bad.

It must be categorically rejected.

I hope your people will reject it if ours won't.

Both you and we will suffer if it isn't rejected.

In case you're interested, the article: techdirt.com/articles/20150305/07181330215/…

1:24 AM

Why do people think there has to be a single word for each concept that needs to be expressed?

A Beautiful Mind

Because there is a single word request tag.

That's a flimsy excuse

@ABeautifulMind Because they use the wrong conceptual metaphor: they see thought and meaning as an addition of discrete building blocks.

Somewhat like the early Wittgenstein.

The early Wittgenstein was an ass. Also the latter one.

Well, well.

1:46 AM

Wittgenstein was Bertrand Russell's student, in case you didn't know.

> You can now read 77.8% of all real Spanish text

I remember.

> You can now read 77.9% of all real Spanish text

A Beautiful Mind

Maybe the single word request tag should be deleted and replaced with phrase request instead.

@Robusto Very hard to believe.

I'm not making the claim. Duolingo is telling me this. Hence the quote offset.

A Beautiful Mind

I did not say you were making the claim.

Neither did you say I said so.

I still recommend you use Assimil. 6 months, 2000 words.

That's their claim.

One hour lesson per day.

2:03 AM

user image

1500 words in five weeks. That´s faster than your Assimil.

A Beautiful Mind

Aha, but I don't know whether you will retain it.

Maybe six weeks

@ABeautifulMind You don't know if I would retain the Assimil 2000, either.

A Beautiful Mind

Yeah, true. But Assimil is very popular in Europe.

Which means nothing to me.

A Beautiful Mind

I just don't like learning things online. I prefer real books.

2:06 AM

In point of fact, I will retain the vocabulary if I continue to use it and expand it. If I stopped either course cold I would lose it all pretty quick.

@ABeautifulMind Fine, you use Assimil. But don't proselytize it to me based on what your prejudices are.

A Beautiful Mind

Duolingo has good reviews too, I read.

You could read my own review of it in chat. But perhaps you refuse to take my word for anything.

> Más vale el estudiante que el estudio.

@tchrist Son palabras de sabiduría.

Evvero!

2:17 AM

@Cerberus How do you spell Euoi in Greek?

A Beautiful Mind

Someone just got suspended for 4 hours for trying to scare me in math chat. I did not flag him.

0

Q: defibe the word 'Onei' in Native language

does anyone have an answer? I was told it was an expression for 'Elder' The Main person in charge. Can anyone help?

We don't defibe words on this site.

You need a hospital and a defibrillator for that.

> εὐοῖ / εὐοἵ

Why?

@Cerberus Curious. That's the Greek version of huzzah or something, isn't it?

You could say that.

But what is curious about it? Or were you curious?

2:24 AM

I am curious.

A Beautiful Mind

I am Non Sequitur.

Yes, you are most curious.

I wondered if it might be linked to hooray somehow.

Odd, one might say.

Ah.

A Beautiful Mind

Hooray and hoorah, interesting.

2:25 AM

I don't know.

I don't see an immediate connection.

Dutch has hoera, hoezee, houzee.

Well, all those are rather natural inarticulate shouts of enthusiasm, no?

I suppose.

A Beautiful Mind

I just use yay, hooray is too pretentious.

Perhaps the connexion lies in Proto-Indo-European as a general sound of spontaneous enthusiasm.

A Beautiful Mind

You use connexion and not connection?

2:27 AM

Yes.

A Beautiful Mind

Very pretentious.

Connexion and flexion are correct.

@Cerberus Seriously? You're going with connexion?

Yes.

> Variant of connection.

2:28 AM

The alternative is a mistake.

In other words, connection is the form horse.

The farm horse?

Words on -ion are made from the supine stem.

No, the form horse. The one touted by the racing form.

The verbs necto and flecto have supine stems nex- and flex-.

> ending favored in British English for certain words that in U.S. typically end in -ction, such as connexion, complexion, inflexion, as being more true to the Latin rules. [Etymonline]

2:30 AM

But the present stems, nect- and flect- resemble supine stems, since many verbs have supine stems on -ct-. The regular supine stem is constructed by adding -t- to the present stem.

And you cleave to British orthography, as we know, so we shall let the matter rest there.

Yes, complexion is another one.

I don't really care which region uses -ct- or -x-, as long as it isn't a malformation based on a mistake.

33 more votes and I can lay aside this Sisyphean task.

Next thing you're going to say nectus and flectible!

user image

2:32 AM

laughs

Haha, what an excellent and timely use of NGrams!

doggy retreats, tail between his legs

If you follow the majority stylistically, you know what happens.

You descend towards mediocrity.

@Cerberus You lose your pedant credentials?

That, too.

Mar 5 at 1:39, by Cerberus

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=first+time+I+see%2Cfirst+time+I+ha‌ve+seen&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&s‌hare=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cfirst%20time%20I%20see%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bfirst%20time‌%20I%20see%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BFirst%20time%20I%20see%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfirst%20time%20‌I%20have%20seen%3B%2Cc0

2:34 AM

We all know how important pedantry and perfectionism are for art.

@tchrist I wasn't trying to prove a stylistic choice.

Jul 25 '14 at 22:28, by Cerberus

All from here. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=none%20but%20I%2Cnone%20but%20me&y‌ear_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cnone%20but%2‌0I%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cnone%20but%20me%3B%2Cc0

Jul 9 '14 at 15:44, by Cerberus

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=percent%20symbol%2Cpercent%20sign%‌2C%20percentage%20sign&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3&direct_‌url=t1%3B%2Cpercent%20symbol%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cpercent%20sign%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2‌Cpercentage%20sign%3B%2Cc0

Jun 21 '14 at 19:48, by Cerberus

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=put+it+below+him%2Cput+it+beneath+‌him%2Cput+it+past+him&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3&share=&d‌irect_url=t1%3B%2Cput%20it%20past%20him%3B%2Cc0

Apr 28 '14 at 23:47, by Cerberus

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=asquerous&year_start=1800&year_end‌=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3&direct_url=

Apr 28 '14 at 23:47, by Cerberus

No Ngrams.

Hey, the use of Ngram is not tainted or hazardous.

You just have to use it properly.

Jan 16 '13 at 20:18, by Cerberus

Do you get context, as in Google Ngrams?

I am not true to Latin roots. That bitch is dead to me.

Why?

Your name is very Latinate.

2:37 AM

@Cerberus My real name isn't.

Nov 1 '11 at 19:29, by Cerberus

In short, Ngrams is just very unreliable.

Sep 8 '11 at 4:28, by Cerberus

I'm always a bit suspicious of Ngrams, but OK.

Jul 7 '11 at 18:16, by Cerberus

I plan to make a post about the unreliableness of Ngrams. Where shall I do so? On meta?

@Robusto Hmm is it Germanic?

@tchrist The idea is that you use Ngrams and then check the actual Books results to make sure they are at all meaningful, and then interpret them in a way that makes sense in context.

Oct 6 '12 at 0:45, by tchrist

Pereant qui ante nos nostra dixerunt.

It all depends on what you're trying to find out or prove.

@Cerberus Teutonic.

2:39 AM

Right.

Or maybe Chthonic. Like yours.

What does it mean?

Something like...strongheart?

@Cerberus You don't know what chthonic means?

Your name, silly.

First name or last name?

2:44 AM

First.

We were talking about first, weren't we?

You should be able to divine the meaning of my last name readily enough.

When you said Teutonic.

Mine means "bright-fame, bright with glory"

@Robusto Something like pontifex?

Yours means garlanded, right?

@Cerberus Now that you mention it, yes.

2:46 AM

Except not -fex, but rather something like tenant or something.

Though I hadn't thought about that connection until now.

@Robusto Garland or crown, yes.

@Robusto Despite your frequent pontifications...

@Robusto I can't analyse it. I'm not good at the historical phonology of Germanic.

Henry Ford.

Oh, okay.

Then pontifex.

A Ford is not exactly a Pons.

Any port in a storm.

2:48 AM

?

Any starboard in a port.

I don't know what Henry means. But I suspect -ry is rich?

Qualis pontifex pereo.

Ford ≠ Pontiac

I believe that is a car as well?

I don't think we have fords any more.

Except near Rivendell.

2:50 AM

I have fords.

Which I have forded.

Wild lands.

And waters.

We have...a lone wolf?

Was Cambridge Camford before someone built a bridge there? Discuss.

When the snows fall and white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.

We have fjords.

Who knows!

2:52 AM

We have pines.

Cambridge must have been ahead of Oxford.

Lone Wolf the Elder

Lone Wolf [the Elder] (Gui-pah-gho) (ca.1820–1879) was the last Principal Chief of the Kiowa tribe. He should not be confused with Lone Wolf II, a nephew named Mamay-day-te (Medicine Standing Bundles), nor Lone Wolf III, a young Kiowa boy whom he adopted. The "Indian Territory"—or the place called "Oklahoma"—is where the great Kiowa Chief Guipago, named Lone Wolf (Gui-pah-gho), lived. Prior to his death, Chief Dohasan (To-hauson, "Little Mountain" or "Little Bluff"), who unified and ruled the Kiowa for 33 years named his nephew Guipahgo (Lone Wolf) as his successor to become the Principal Chief...

Many are the rills I have crossed by padding across fallen pines.

But sometimes I’ve fallen in.

@Cerberus Collectively the two are referred to as Oxbridge now.

Camford.

They built a bridge to differentiate themselves from the kine drovers.

2:57 AM

@Robusto I know.

user image

Or, as Hymphrey says, "both universities" (there are no others, especially not the LSE).

I’m watching the past series of Would I Lie To You tonight.

@Robusto I didn’t know you frequented that sort of shop.

@tchrist My mom used to give us that for chapped lips when we were little.

If only you had done as she bid.

Hm.

Bade?

2:59 AM

Bade?

Jinx.

My bad beat your bad.

The bid/bade debate has raged within me every time I need the past tense of bid. Bade sounds strained, but bid sounds wrong. Lots of times I punt and use something like asked instead.

Was bidden.

Got rabies shots.

There go the rats.

@RegDwigнt Boy is Reg ever hot tonight.

0

Q: Why's tchrist doing this?

Why does tchrist close all of the questions that intrigue me? The questions that seem to have no definitive answer, but strike some very interesting debate that helps me make my own decision. Then, BAM, tchrist offers no answer, and ends the discussion. Why, that?

Dear Tom, why the why do you not like questions?

I don’t even Mjölnir every day.

3:04 AM

> But at the end of this term, the young Wittgenstein brought to his instructor a pressing question: “Will you please tell me whether I am a complete idiot or not? If I am a complete idiot, I shall become an aeronaut; but, if not, I shall become a philosopher.”

> Russell issued a challenge to write about a philosophical subject over the school break, and Wittgenstein handed him the result as soon as the next term began. “After reading only one sentence,” recalls Russell, “I said to him, “No, you must not become an aeronaut.”

Huhuh, you said Wittgenstein.

No. Russell said it.

@RegDwigнt "No definite answer. Provokes debate." => CV++

Huhuh, you said Russel. Which is German for long dong.

@tchrist M. C. Hammer => T. C. Mjolnir

3:05 AM

Or man who lays pavement.

Ursprünglich bedeutet Rüssel (griech. προβοσκίς, proboskís, daher neulat. Proboscis) bei Tieren eine verlängerte, fleischige Nase mit den Nasenlöchern am unteren, freien Ende. Im weiteren Sinne bezeichnet der Begriff die in ähnlicher Art verlängerten Mundteile bei vielen anderen Tieren. Bei Elefanten und anderen (fossilen) Angehörigen der Rüsseltiere (Proboscidea) stellt der Rüssel ein langes, äußerst bewegliches und mit feinem Tastgefühl begabtes muskuläres Organ dar, das sich im Laufe ihrer Entwicklungsgeschichte aus dem Zusammenwachsen von Oberlippe und Nase bildete. Neben seiner Funktion als…

Eww wiki. Horse porn galore.

@RegDwigнt So does practically every object that has more length than width.

Pachydermatously.

@Robusto Girth, my bro. Teh wurd is girth.

@RegDwigнt The mirth is the same in either case.

3:07 AM

I shall lend you my shirt made of girthril.

You’ll have to let out a link first.

Fuck it, I'm going to bed.

TMI

Night all.

CU

3:08 AM

It was the horse porn.

Short night.

Tee hee and har har

So anyway, I'm not even here.

I was wondering.

But thanks for hitting that fast.

Must still do the daily double on a couple tanks.

Tanks.

Which is a daily triple these days, what with the WoT guys being at the PAX.

Cryptic nonsense is cryptic.

Also, nonsense.

Lators gators.

3:27 AM

user image

3:53 AM

Feeding trolls on a Sunday morning. Story of my life.

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: Only discuss things that can be expressed in a language (including dance, but excluding galliard). (no tags)

My Lord, they’re multiplifying!

:-O

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

dances

I need to remember I have something to show Rob. I dare'n't ping him now.

user image

I hope he doesn’t get pung at night.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

That's a sexy ampersand.

@tchrist :x

4:01 AM

Soviet Ampersand?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist Really?

No, kidding.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Wait. Ampersand is a singular anatomy?

No way.

Ours is what I call the put-up-your-dukes ampersand.

That’s quite cute.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Every ampersand's dukes are different.

4:05 AM

I think we talked about this.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

What does Bringhurst say about ampersand anatomy?

There’s some face out there with a bazillion of ’em.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I think you're right.

He reports that it’s a scribal abbreviation dating back to Roman times. He also says to use the best one available.

Feb 16 at 3:53, by tchrist

> I use Poetica as a demo “poster child” for what’s possible in OpenType: there are 11 levels of swashes affecting mostly the capitals, and 60 different ampersands.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Why can't I get no ampersand anatomy 'round here?

user image

Delicious.

4:10 AM

I see nuthin.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

There was at least one clock in my childhood that I stared at, trying to judge whether the '2' and the '7' were the same thing rotated 180 degrees.

Wow, the village idiot is fisticoughing @Reg still.

(I would stick in a little dig on your repeated improper use of punctuation outside of your quotes, but I won't. Ermm, yeah I will. — Timothy John 9 mins ago

There are times like these when I am almost half-tempted to be embarrassed at my own nationality, but then I remember that stupid people are associated with everything, so it doesn’t reflect on me.

4 hours later…

7:54 AM

All too true.

Although we always avoid fellow Dutchmen when abroad.

We switch to some other language to remain incogniti.

[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: What exactly does "All Items Not On Sale" mean? by Tomas Colquhoun on english.stackexchange.com

4 hours later…

12:07 PM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 You can ping me when I'm not in chat. I won't hear it.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Oh, cool. Is that a CTA token from back in the day? Wait, it looks like a pre-CTA token.

3 hours later…

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

2:42 PM

@Robusto I don't know if it's pre-CTA or not. I thought perhaps you would recognize it.

3:07 PM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 It looks to me like maybe pre-CTA. Before there was a city-wide authority. The bus would be from the '30s or '40s. Or since it's Chicago & Calumet maybe it was a south-shore extension of the CTA.

So now we have people on meta downvoting Reg and upvoting <REDACTED>.

That is not right.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I see it was previously a Gary operation, which would explain why it's separate from the CTA.

Three upvotes on the rant. W. T. F. ?.

@tchrist Maybe not, but that's democracy for you.

A creationist and Darwin would each have a vote under a democracy, however unfair that seems.

Let them pass a law against gravity or entropy. Go ahead, make my day.

Makes as much sense as passing a law making pi = 3.

Some things are not subject to "democracy".

3:13 PM

I agree. And yet here we are, looking at my deciding vote that was needed to put @Reg in the black once again on that answer.

And we're looking at a Chair of the Senate Science Committe who is a climate-change denier. Who brings a snowball into the Senate to "disprove" climate change.

Witch burning.

And you may laugh all you want at the absurdity of passing (or failing to pass) laws regarding climate change, but the fact is that such attitudes do hurt us.

So do the anti-biology laws.

Enshrining lies, superstitions, myths, and delusions into law hurts us.

3:31 PM

At this point, I'm a troll. I don't like this site. I don't like the censorship. I don't like reading 3 pages of intelligent debate about whether or not a specific word should be capitalized, only to get to the end and see that "whoever superuser big headed whats-his-name" has protected the question. It's very 1998. It's feedback, and as far as I could see, this was the only way to have it seen by you. Chew on it, or spit it out. Get off your horse, man. — Timothy John 12 hours ago

Idiot.

He doesn’t understand SE.

He thinks it is a place for debate, not for answers.

If he wants youtube comments, he knows where to find them.

1 hour later…

4:49 PM

@RegDwigнt Happy Flock-Clucking Day! Are we having fun yet?

5:07 PM

I am having seven fun.

Might upgrade to eight, but then again I'm lazy.

Speaking of which, I'll go have me some Tomb Raider.

The re-boot is actually not bad at all. I am indeed quite surprised at how not bad at all it is.

Check it out if you haven't.

I actually only came online to look for the Zero Punctuation review of it. I remember Yahtzee didn't like it (surprise!), but I don't remember why.

Tomb Raiders.

TOMB RAIDER (Zero Punctuation)

Aren’t they the football team from the O.K. Corral?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto Wow!

I got that at an estate sale yesterday. It was in a small plastic container with two sizes of Euro and other metal bits and bobs.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 The Euro keeps shrinking just as the Eurozone keeps expanding. Coincidence — or conspiracy!? :)

5:20 PM

Oh right now I remember it. Well yes, the story is sorta rubbish, and you don't really care much for anyone in the game, and the character arc is neither an arc nor a character, and whatever you do, you're immediately very good at doing it. All valid points. But guess what: it is great fun to be immediately good at whatever you're doing. Instant gratification is instantly gratifying.

Also, as a side note, I for one am not immediately good at most of the things required. In fact I keep dying all the time. But unlike with GTA IV, I do not have to start over with the entire fooging game because of that. I am just asked to redo that one single bit that I screwed up.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist You forgot conjecture.

A mere conjuror’s trick, that.

And now I'm off, to screw things up and get them repaired at a moment's notice for instant gratification.

Good morning!

@RegDwigнt It's mean of you to leave 1 second before I arrive.

It is Mad Cow day here.

5:25 PM

The disease?

No, kine of wrath.

They are angry about the clucking flocks.

Huh?

They find it udderly unsane.

Drunk?

Moi?

Mais non.

It is time that is out of joint.

5:28 PM

Is it?

’Tis.

The wolf may have killed a sheep!

But probably not, says the news.

This is but lupine nature.

Men kill sheep.

Shall we shoot those who do?

Nobody is angry.

It's just a nice bit of news that the whole country can feel some camaraderie about.

The sun rose earlier today, and shall set later.

5:33 PM

(Are you familiar with this word, by the way?)

In fact, today shall be 2 minutes and 38 seconds longer than yesterday.

Our clocks, however, have been fucked with.

@Cerberus Word?

So you do.

Not that I'm surprised.

I do what?

2 hours later…

7:07 PM

Limerick Machine: There once was an old guitar man Hoping for change in a can Playing and waiting Anticipating For...

posted on March 08, 2015 by sgdi

There once was an old guitar man Hoping for change in a can Playing and waiting Anticipating For something to fill up his pan

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Mar '158

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…

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