English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:01 AM

20

We're getting close, boys - we're gettin' close! The Community Review Dashboard is finally nearing something we can call "release quality". All of the major categories from the old system are in place, and the time has come to address those stinkin' badges... The old reviewer badge had a fairl...

Spare Oom

12:17 AM

@Mitch @Mitch Popeye's possible deeper meaning never crossed my mind. I had a difficult time understanding him at any rate. He needed to consult some pronunciation guides. What's his nationality anyway? Mutter, mutter, mutter. (Not to be confused with Mutter, @ЯegDwight

Mahnax

@tchrist Congrats on your second gold badge.

tchrist

I’m impressed. I was only expecting a silver out of it.

Mahnax

You just need one more to catch up to me :-)

tchrist

Thanks.

@Mahnax I dunno — you’re 12 behind me on SO. :)

Mahnax

@tchrist Pah. My "contributions" there have all been quite s--tty.

I wish I could delete them all.

Alas, I was young and foolish then.

tchrist

12:21 AM

Oh, they’ll catch you at that.

@Mahnax Which thing has changed? :)

Robusto

Gift for @Cerberus. He is the Cerberus of ELU posters.

Mahnax

@tchrist Both, a little.

tchrist

@Robusto Something seems wrong with your font. :(

Robusto

Not my font. I stolened it.

tchrist

You might should holpen it, too.

Spare Oom

12:23 AM

It's Greek to me.

Robusto

Speak you of the precioussssesss?

tchrist

It’s Greek to everybody.

Robusto

Anyway, what do you want from a GIF? Beziér curves?

tchrist

Oh, well.

ChairOTP

Hello

tchrist

12:24 AM

It is a kind jester.

Spare Oom

@Robusto No, sorry. I'm just quoting Shakespeare, kinda.

tchrist

Don’t worry about it, @Rob.

@Robusto No, but Bézier curves might be nice.

Robusto

Ah, you went and looked it up. I was too lazy.

ChairOTP

Is 'wait for' interchangeable with 'wait on'? I've seen some native English speakers saying they are, but others say they're not.

Robusto

And you're so fucking diacritical of everything.

Mahnax

12:28 AM

@ChairOTP Not in all situations.

For example, a waiter at a restaurant waits on his customers.

But if you're waiting for your friends to get out of the grocery store, it's not really appropriate to say wait on.

Robusto

Well, but you can say you're waiting on them.

tchrist

@Robusto I knew it was wrong because you would never use an acute where you put it.

Mahnax

Actually, I can't think of a time when they would be synonymous.

Robusto

Pardon my French.

tchrist

@Robusto I’m of two minds about that.

@Robusto Someone has to.

Robusto

12:30 AM

Metathesis is the team, Sis.

tchrist

yphuses

Robusto

Better: metathesis is the steam.

ChairOTP

@Mahnax 'you're waiting on them' as Roberto stated, is correct or not?

Because I've heard the phrase 'I'm waiting on you'.

Robusto

We're only waiting on you now!

tchrist

@ChairOTP They normally mean different things, but not always.

Mahnax

12:31 AM

@ChairOTP Eh, that might be OK.

I would love to stay and discuss, but I am leaving now.

Goodbye.

tchrist

In contemporary conversational English, to wait on is what a waiter does for his clients.

He’s always so precipitous.

ChairOTP

So should I stick to 'wait on - waiter'.

Spare Oom

But you can also wait on a date (to get ready).

tchrist

> 9. a. To be in readiness to receive orders; hence, to be in attendance as a servant; to attend as a servant does to the requirements of a superior. Chiefly const. on: see wait on, 14 j

To wait on has definitions lettered a through o.

Spare Oom

It seems like any phrase with a preposition has many definitions.

tchrist

12:34 AM

In programming, one calls the wait4(process_id) function when you want to wait on a particular process.

However, it is more common to use it to mean sleep(wait_channel) in the kernel to say you are waiting on that particular event.

Or on that address.

Here is the synonym: to wait on i. To remain in one place in expectation of = wait for (7 a). Also, more generally, to wait for (5 b).

1865 O. L. Jackson Colonel’s Diary (1922) 227 ― We have been waiting on the pay department.
1915 J. Buchan 39 Steps vi. 135 ― He··raised his placid eyebrows and waited on me to speak.
1931 Amer. Speech VII. 20 ― Wait on, wait for, the Biblical sense. ‘When I got there, John was waiting on me.’ (Widespread.)
1955 F. O’Connor Wise Blood v. 85 ― He··darted after Hazel Motes. ‘Wait on me!’ he shouted.
1960 Observer 7 Feb. 13/4 ― The nation waits on the railwaymen, to see if there will be a strike or not.

ChairOTP

But Mahnax said "But if you're waiting for your friends to get out of the grocery store, it's not really appropriate to say wait on."

Robusto

@SpareOom Just about.

tchrist

@ChairOTP Well. . .

Robusto

@ChairOTP That's simply not true.

tchrist

I was trying to think of a nice way to put it.

ChairOTP

12:37 AM

So I could say 'I'm waiting on my friends to get out of the grocery'?

tchrist

It may not be common in his dialect and register. But it is certainly valid.

ChairOTP

OK, thanks.

Robusto

I would use "for" in that sentence, but I might say, "And here I am, out here waiting on my friends, with nothing to do."

tchrist

It would probably be better to use wait for there.

Spare Oom

@ChairOTP Waiting on may imply more impatience than waiting for. And yes, it doesn't seem as polite.

Robusto

12:39 AM

See, there is almost never only one single correct way to say a thing.

tchrist

This is the more common sense:

j. To attend as or in the manner of a servant to the personal requirements of; to minister to the comfort of. †Also in phrases, to wait on the cup, the trencher, the table (cf. 9 b). to wait on (a person) hand and foot: see hand sb. 57.

1749 Fielding Tom Jones vii. xv, ― It is not my business, answered the Drawer, to wait upon the Chambers. If you come to that, answered the Maid, it is not my business to wait upon Gentlemen.
1847 Marryat Childr. New Forest iv, ― You can have no servants to wait upon you.
1866 Mrs. H. Wood Mildred Arkell xi, ― When I was only six years old I had to wait on Mamma and Charlotte.
1901 Alldridge Sherbro xii. 114 ― He is waited upon hand and foot.

Then there is this one:

m. To pay a respectful visit to; to call upon with the intention of showing respect, asking a favour, or the like.

Robusto

If someone who didn't speak English well used on instead of for it would sound funny. But if someone whose English was unimpeachable said it, and he wasn't drunk, you'd have to assume he had a good reason for doing so.

ChairOTP

He is waited upon hand and foot. ?

Spare Oom

Not that many people now have someone to wait on them in those terms.

tchrist

@ChairOTP It means his every need attended to.

David Wallace

12:41 AM

and you can say on or upon in that sentence.

tchrist

Examples for sense (m) include:

1766 Goldsm. Vicar W. xxx, ― A person of distinction··sent his respects to the gentleman that was with us, and begged to know when he should think proper to be waited upon.
1848 Dickens Dombey xxvi, ― I took the liberty of waiting on her··to inquire if she could charge me with any little commission.
1849 Macaulay Hist. Eng. ix. II. 474 ― The Primate and the few Spiritual Peers who happened to be then in London had orders to wait upon the King.
1885 Manch. Exam. 6 July 4/7 ― A deputation had waited upon Lords Salisbury, Redesdale, and Roxburghe.

Robusto

But you could say you were waiting on your friends, and it would imply you were in high dudgeon about having to wait for them.

tchrist

@DavidWallace It is hard to find places where on and upon are not interchangeable.

@Robusto I do love that phrase.

Robusto

"Once upon a time"!

ChairOTP

@tchrist Never saw that structure you just used before, but somehow I get it.

Robusto

12:42 AM

You can't say "Once on a time" ...

tchrist

Wanna bet? It was once common to mean the same thing.

David Wallace

Ooh, another fight!

tchrist

I should be delighted to illustrate, if you are interested.

Robusto

Go ahead and try. I bet you can't even make the words come out of your mouth without suffering eternal damnation.

tchrist

I never say flaggy things.

Robusto

12:44 AM

Anyway, I'll concede the point. Dylan Thomas in "Fern Hill" even said "once below a time" ...

ChairOTP

bks9.books.google.com.co/…

David Wallace

Once on a time machine there was a red flashing light.

Robusto

And honoured among wagons I was prince of the apple towns
And once below a time I lordly had the trees and leaves
          Trail with daisies and barley
     Down the rivers of the windfall light.

ChairOTP

Robusto

Oh, Pooh on you.

2

David Wallace

12:45 AM

Ah, the man who brought us "pounds, shillings and ounces".

Robusto

He ruined his son's life with his books. Christopher Robin Milne would be teased unmercifully throughout his career because of them.

Spare Oom

@Robusto No mud slinging now.

ChairOTP

@Robusto pun intended?

tchrist

II. = Time when: a point of time; a space of time treated without reference to its duration. The ‘point’ may be an instant (as the time when a star crosses the meridian), or it may have some duration (as the time for sowing), but the question of its length is not considered, only the question when it occurs (i.e. where it is situated in the period), and its distinctive qualification.
13. a. A point in the course of time or of a period: = tide sb. 3; spec. in early ME., the hour of the day; = OE. tíd: see tide sb. 4.

Robusto

Just the bear facts.

@ChairOTP Puns are always intended.

tchrist

12:47 AM

First ref: A. 1050 O.E. Chron. an. 1009 (Laud MS.) ― On þisum ilcan timan oððe litle ær þet [etc.].

1470-85 Malory Arthur ii. i. 75 ― Soo it befelle on a tyme whanne kyng Arthur was at London.

Malory used “on a time” in that way.

Once on a Time

Once On A Time is a fairy tale created by A. A. Milne (creator of Winnie-the-Pooh). Written in 1917, Milne's own introduction begins 'This is an odd book', and indeed it is very difficult to classify. Ostensibly a typical fairytale, it tells the story of the war between the kingdoms of Euralia and Barodia and the political shenanigans which take place in Euralia in the king's absence, all supposedly rewritten by Milne from the writings of the fictional historian "Roger Scurvilegs". Milne created the story to contain believable, three-dimensional characters, rather than the stereotypes w...

That would ruin anybody.

ChairOTP

It still has the same meaning as Once upon a time, I'm guessing?

tchrist

@ChairOTP Well, that sense is archaic today.

Here are many references

It would give the tale an old-time flavor.

Spare Oom

L. Frank Baum - another one of my favorite childhood authors.

How long before a word is considered archaic?

tchrist

@SpareOom About when I was born.

David Wallace

@SpareOom That question is SO two minutes ago!

tchrist

12:53 AM

Since I seem to speak that way customarily.

Spare Oom

@tchrist Yeah, it seems that way to me too.

ChairOTP

What does 'throw your own wake'?

tchrist

If you only read teenspeke, then just about anything is archaic.

@ChairOTP Depends.

Spare Oom

But I like phrasing in some of the older books.

tchrist

If it means wake in the sense of funeral, that is one thing, but if it is what a boat leaves behind, it is another.

David Wallace

12:55 AM

@ChairOTP It means to do something stupid that is likely to lead to your death.

ChairOTP

I saw it on Friends, the TV show. 'Throwing your own wake is not a good way to meet women" I guess it's what @tchrist meant.

tchrist

I wish I could grep HoME.

ChairOTP

A funeral.

David Wallace

@ChairOTP Oh, THAT episode!

Yes, Ross organised a funeral for himself to find out whether anyone really liked him.

ChairOTP

@DavidWallace Ross' fake funeral.

tchrist

12:57 AM

Ross’s.

David Wallace

Yes, so in this case, it just meant "host your own funeral". But you understand that that's not a common usage?

I would more expect it in a sentence like "if you keep on driving that fast, you're throwing your own wake".

ChairOTP

@tchrist I thought when a name ends in -s, you only add the apostrophe.

tchrist

@ChairOTP No, that is a super-common error, though.

David Wallace

It's when you pronounce the possessive without adding any sound.

tchrist

David is right.

ChairOTP

12:59 AM

So I write it as Ross's but I spell it as 'Ross'

tchrist

No.

David Wallace

Write it how you would pronounce it.

If you would pronounce it the same as "Ross funeral", then write "Ross' funeral".

If you would pronounce it with an extra wee bit of sound, then write "Ross's funeral".

This is one of tchrist's (numerous) hobby horses.

tchrist

@DavidWallace I certainly hope no one says that.

ChairOTP

@tchrist Is it incorrect then?

David Wallace

OK, but what about "James' funeral"? I would say that.

tchrist

1:02 AM

@DavidWallace I wouldn’t, nor do I know anyone who would.

David Wallace

I think because the S is voiced, I wouldn't add another one.

tchrist

They all say Jameziz.

Maybe.

David Wallace

But I add a voiced S (and half a schwa) onto the unvoiced S in "Ross".

tchrist

10

A: Which singular names ending in “s” form possessives with only a bare apostrophe?

The most useful rule — and the most general and the easiest to remember — is simply that you add ’s whenever you actually say an extra /əz/ at the end when forming the possessive, compared with how you say the non-possessive version. Let your own ear be your guide. That’s all there is to it. No ...

In the UK, it is apparently not uncommon to hear rustics say things like "the farmerziz crops" for "the farmers’ crops".

ChairOTP

But Ross's wouldn't sound a bit like roses?

David Wallace

1:04 AM

Hmm, I might just have to post a competing answer to that question.

@ChairOTP No, because it has a different vowel, and also an unvoiced s.

ChairOTP

Then I can't think of how would you pronounce it.

David Wallace

I'm sure tchrist will provide the IPA symbols if you prod him enough. But I must depart. See you all.

tchrist

Ross ends with an unvoiced s.

Ross’s has an unvoiced one then a voiced one after the schwa.

Ross’s = /ˈrɔːsəz/

Spare Oom

When did this by ear start? I'm sure I was taught as in previous ages.

ChairOTP

schwa is the most common vowel sound. But the only vowel there is o.

tchrist

1:09 AM

Rosa’s = /ˈroʊzəz/

@SpareOom It has always been that way, including in previous ages. You were simply mis-instructed by those of lesser scholarship and understanding. That is the most charitable way I can put it, too.

Spare Oom

@tchrist Thanks for straightening me out.

tchrist

When people said “in /ˈd͡ʒiːzəs/ name”, they wrote it as Jesus’. But today, most everyone says “in /ˈd͡ʒiːzəsəz/ name”, and so needs must write Jesus’s. An apostrophe is never pronounced like an s (well, a /z/), so if you need that sound, you must always write it out with a real s.

If I have converted one soul, I count it a day well spent.

Spare Oom

It's much easier that way. I've often reworded what I was going to say to avoid having to figure out how to spell it.

ChairOTP

I'm going to look for a video where someone says Ross's, so it is easier.

Spare Oom

@tchrist I was expecting the 3rd shoe to drop with the IPA symbols for roses.

tchrist

1:17 AM

@SpareOom I didn’t care to confuse a non-native speaker.

Plus, roses and Rosa’s are not minimal pairs for all speakers, although they are for me.

ChairOTP

Wait. Is it the same sound 'Ross's' when talking about possessive and 'Ross's' when contracting Ross is ?

Spare Oom

That's the word he thought Ross's sounded like, though. Rosa's hadn't even occurred to me.

Robusto

Adieu.

tchrist

Adiós.

Spare Oom

Fare thee well.

Auf wiedersehen.

Robusto

1:19 AM

But wait ...

0

Q: Is there a difference between "to go forth" and "to go further"?

Last week I studied with some friends at college and after a short break, I decided to proceed with the exercises. I said "Well, let's go further." and one guy (native american) said "Okay then. Let's go forth." I did not really think about it then, but yesterday this question spontaneously ar...

word-choice differences expression-choice

Gen ref, to a certainty.

tchrist

Yeah.

Robusto

I mean, yes, there is a difference. They don't mean the same thing at all.

Never.

Right.

@ChairOTP Yes.

1:21 AM

@tchrist So would it work if I say 'fast' Ross is?

tchrist

@ChairOTP Not quite sure what you mean, but I think so.

Ross’s presence is no longer required, now that Ross’s here already. Those sound the same.

ChairOTP

►

About 0:07

tchrist

No pr0n in this chat.

ChairOTP

Chandler says Ross is wearing leather pants.

Robusto

Gah! Friends! I have to go watch a few episodes of Community to get the taste out of my mouth. CYAZ.

tchrist

1:23 AM

Never seen it before.

But that is a real is.

ChairOTP

I'll keep looking then.

Spare Oom

I'm so pleased to meet other people who didn't watch Friends.

I didn't know the clip was from Friends until @Robusto mentioned it.

Or is Friends!?

ChairOTP

@SpareOom You didn't watch it because you didn't like it or why?

Spare Oom

There didn't seem to be any point.

I didn't care for the previews, so I didn't bother with watching any episodes.

cornbread ninja

1:50 AM

@SpareOom Seinfeld had no point, and it was great.

Spare Oom

@WillHunting I have to agree here! I found out after I took a class that the tenured head of the computer science was so notoriously bad that the CS students knew to steer clear of him. I thought, wow, the head of the CS department or another teacher. I'll choose the department head's class! Nobody told me! Wahhh!

@cornbreadninja I never watched a whole episode of Seinfeld either.

Though I did see the end jokes occasionally.

tchrist

2:07 AM

Oh hurray! Stephen Fry just pronounced larvae like I do.

I bet @Cerb does, too.

Spare Oom

2:20 AM

@DavidWallace Thinly disguised.

tchrist

Tell me this is OT:

0

Q: Examples of using heterographs in the same sentence

Are there resources to help elucidate the correct usage of pairs of common heterographs in a single sentence or phrase? This is mainly for self-improvement, but also would help to point out to other people who make some common mistakes. Looking for something like: The principal had a principle...

meaning differences phrase-requests homophones

tchrist

2:33 AM

That’s twice:

Robin Michael

1 6

meaning word-choice single-word-requests etymology grammar idioms prepositions

Spare Oom

@tchrist Two suspensions in a month?

tchrist

Something like that.

Spare Oom

@tchrist Agreed.

cornbread ninja

smbc-comics.com/?id=2735

@tchrist I wish his icons weren't so cute.

tchrist

Has to be a she.

Because when asked, she refused to answer.

Thus, a girl.

cornbread ninja

2:47 AM

Hmm.

oh yeah, that!

Spare Oom

Who ever calls it teaching English as foreign language?

Spare Oom

3:13 AM

2

Q: "Ignored over reforms"

In the sentence below, could on, or concerning be better than over? Public being ignored over lobbying reforms I found it here.

grammar

How is that asked yesterday if he's been suspended?

tchrist

@SpareOom He puts on a new pair of socks most every day.

Spare Oom

Does the sock show up as the same name?

I don't understand how that works.

tchrist

3:29 AM

They merge them.

Spare Oom

Ah, but too late.

tchrist

Right.

Spare Oom

What is the proper way to respond to a sock puppet question?

tchrist

Flag.

Spare Oom

3:49 AM

@tchrist A moderator added a resources tag to that question and left it open.

Are there resources to help elucidate the correct usage of pairs of common heterographs in a single sentence or phrase? A dictionary?

cornbread ninja

@tchrist how many Custodian badges did you get?

tchrist

4:10 AM

@cornbreadninja 3.

@SpareOom I can’t think of anything.

David Wallace

@SpareOom You answer it in the same fashion that you would answer any other question. Stack Exchange is a question and answer site, for future users to reap the benefits of, as much as the current askers and answerers. The answer to a question should NEVER depend on whether you believe the asker is a sock.

Frank Science

6:03 AM

What's the etymology paradox?

David Wallace

6:29 AM

@FrankScience I believe it's the fact that the present-day meaning of a word doesn't necessarily match what you might expect the meaning to be, based on the word's etymology.

Frank Science

@DavidWallace Well, I wonder the URI in wikipedia.

David Wallace

You mean, you don't know why there isn't an entry for "etymology paradox"?

Frank Science

I remember I got a URI here, but now I cannot find the URI.

Maybe the title is different.

tchrist

1:11 PM

tchrist

1:38 PM

Etymological fallacy

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. This is a linguistic misconception. An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology. A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies, or claiming that a word should be used in a particular way because it has a particular etymology. A similar concept is...

Robusto

@tchrist Word.

tchrist

7

A: How can an answer without down-votes be voted to be deleted?

In the new Low Quality review queue (and only from the new LQ review queue), it's possible for members with at least 20K reputation to vote to delete answers with a score equal or less than 0. The assumption here is that posts in the LQ queue are more likely to be worth deleting out of hand, ra...

I’d been asking about this since the new review tools came out.

user19161

1:56 PM

@tchrist Deleting zero vote answers seems pretty drastic.

tchrist

Why is it more drastic than first downvoting from 0 to –1 just to cast a delete vote?

That said, it is harder to notice there are pending delete votes on those.

Although not impossible.

It's also worth mentioning that people who "sympathy upvote" bad material interfere with some of the features that allow the community to do its policing work. This is a great example why a community needs it's members on board with downvoting bad content. — jmort253 12 hours ago

Anyway, it only happens from the review queue, and only for 20k users.

tchrist

2:20 PM

Have a Fulsome Fall!, everyone — and an Aurulent Autumn!

I use fulsome in its original sense.

Carlo_R.

3:09 PM

@Will Hunting Hello Will, last night I have been quiet because, while I was following the discussion in chat, the sleep did come to me. At my age this can occur! Thank you for you thought to me. Good saturday.

ЯegDwight

4:57 PM

-2

Q: Which the difference between "this", "is" and "are"?

First, I wish ask you my sorry by the my language. I'm learning this language wonderful English. I would like to know which the difference between this conjuctions. For instance: The "are", meaning = is or are. We will to use the "are" for the "is": "You are happy ?" Why this happens ? T...

conjunctions

Oh boy.

Andrew Leach

5:18 PM

@ЯegDwight Is there scope for altering the site header graphic to include the word "Advanced" or something?

ЯegDwight

There were similar suggestions on meta. Not as dedicated threads, though.

Not that it would help much, if I may put my pessimist hat on.

All sites get off-topic questions. People ask for video game walkthroughs on SO, etc.

You can fix the header graphic, but you can't fix people.

BRB

Andrew Leach

6:01 PM

@ЯegDwight When you are back, could you advise whether an edit like english.stackexchange.com/posts/83364/revisions is an acceptable revision? My feeling is that it's too much of a change; but there's no harm in asking for other opinions before getting into an edit war or Meta post. [The remaining downvote is something I have some control over, but I'm not inclined to reverse it on the basis of an edit which changes the answer this much]

Carlo_R.

7:52 PM

@Andrew What is the problem here? I do not understand to what war are you referring to? Could you please explain? I'm potentially interested in such a war.

Andrew Leach

@Carlo_R. The editor has drastically altered the answer by removing the principal point it was making and substituting the correct one. There isn't a war yet; I'm actually seeking to avert one by asking whether my assessment [that rollback is appropriate] is correct.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…