English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Cerberus no, it's phone number display for incoming calls

1:45 AM

But that's a small part of the total anyway.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Uhh but every phone has that? Wait, are you thinking of landline? Sorry, this is mobile.

so perhaps it is a good price. I am looking now at the current rates for one of the major carriers here, and sweet ginger chicken it's expensive

@Cerberus no, I mean, in Canada the carriers charge you extra to enable that

@Kosmo: Kosmie!!!

What a nice surprise!!

Hey-o

holy smokes! he's back!

Just thought I'd say hello.

1:46 AM

Did you see that I had just posted a comment to your very nice answer with the diagram?

You have been greatly missed!

No, I logged in and there were 250 or so messages

We have been praying to the infinite circle for your return.

I didn't really want to go through them.

Oh, haha.

Did you hear that the Demon of Evil is supposedly leaving the site?

I guess you did.

Thought he did already.

Assuming we have the same idea of who is the Demon of Evil...

1:48 AM

Heh.

We're talking about Robusto, right?

I think we do. Just not sure about the actual progress in his passage to the netherworld.

Haha.

Ha ha.

coughs

The other demon.

Yes I heard about it from Nohat.

1:49 AM

The Robustian demon is alive and kicking. Actually, not so much kicking, because he has just had an operation done on his knee.

But he's alive, anyway

So how have you been? Any major things happened?

Yes, well... such big things that I didn't have time to come back even after nohat wrote to me.

Oh, I see.

I've got a 7-month old kid now.

1:51 AM

@Kosmonaut good things?

Oh wowie.

@Kosmonaut oh! congrats

Yay!

How does it feel?

Upload some nice pictures so we can all pronounce the customary awws and ooohs.

1:52 AM

Feels great

Don't know why I didn't do this sooner.

Do you wake up and think "what have I gotten myself into?" I still do and my kids are 4 and 2 :)

Haha.

Sometimes, heh

I think some of those moments are still yet to come.

At seven months, there is only so much trouble he can get himself into.

Hmm rolling out of his crib?

@Kosmonaut is he sitting up yet? trying to crawl? debating the use of the Oxford comma?

1:53 AM

Crying all through the night?

But he can stand and hold on to things.

He might skip crawling.

Oh, dear.

He takes steps if you hold his hands

Aww.

And he just started waving last week.

1:55 AM

How precocious.

Which was, like, amazing.

@Kosmonaut I bet when he does that he gets a look of sheer joy on his face, like "Look at me! I'm walking!"

I think.

Can he say "dada" yet?

I miss having a small baby. But not so much that I'd want to do it again :) They are so much more fun when they start talking.

What age is that again?

1:57 AM

@Cerberus talking? depends on the child. My daughter was talking in sentences at 19 months. My son at 23-months-ish

Oh, OK. And mama/dada?

So I was just telling Mr Shiny how I agree that Celsius is definitely superior.

@Cerberus some kids say it early, some late. My kids were late starters... their first words came around 12 months, and they learned it at the daycare. "More" and "bubbles". both kids had those two words within a few weeks of starting daycare.

Err...

But enough about me, Kosmo is the new parent basking in the glow of his baby!

Hmm so they learn from their peers sooner than from you? No mama first?

2:00 AM

@Cerberus I have no idea why they were like that. Maybe because their mother spoke Shanghainese to them while I spoke English?

Oh, dear.

I would be confused.

Then again, I'm not a bright one-year-old.

Testing...

@Kosmonaut ack

Am I back now?

yes

2:01 AM

Yes?

If you did something spectacular, we can pretend to be in awe.

But I didn't actually see anything special happen.

I wrote some amazing replies, but they disappeared into the ether.

Ah, as ever.

Oh, you mean really?

How annoying.

@Cerberus He can say "dada", but doesn't attach it to anything in the world.

Hmm OK.

So I presume there is no audible mama?

But when he waves, he says something like "huuuuuuuuuh", which he only does when he waves.

2:03 AM

I mean audibly different from dada.

mama, baba, dada, he does those

@Kosmonaut A linguistic utterance!

It must be quite an interesting field study for you, even if it's not exactly your field.

Subfield.

My guess is that his next linguistic act will either be signing "milk" or signing "more"

Doesn't crying serve for that already?

@Kosmonaut yes! I forgot that my kids did that

2:04 AM

Or some kind of hand movement?

another trick the daycare taught them

@Cerberus sign language

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The source of all evil?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yup!

We've been doing the thing where you use sign language around your baby.

the latest super-parent thing is to teach your babies sign-language because there is some evidence that they can learn it faster than spoken language

Aww.

2:05 AM

It's easier to articulate with the hands than the mouth for a lot of babies.

the problem is that the PARENTS have to learn it first, which is why that didn't go over well around my house

But how can you teach them sign language if you need to have Bach playing 24/7 around your baby?

Or has that trend faded already?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Exactly, there are these DVDs called Baby Signing Time, but you can't just plop your kid in front of them.

@Cerberus No, it still exists I think.

Oh, I see.

You have to learn the signs yourselves, use them, and recognize them.

That's really all that matters.

The kid doesn't need to watch the DVDs at all.

2:07 AM

I suppose one cannot hear Ich freue mich auf meinen Tod early enough.

I think I would have succeeded at baby-signing if I wasn't also studying mandarin at the time. Learning ASL is exactly like learning a new language.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, though you don't need to learn anything approaching fluent ASL.

shocked

Just some real basic words.

Yeah, wouldn't a much cruder kind of sign language work better than ASL?

2:08 AM

@Kosmonaut true.

Hello everyone.

With ehm more distance between minimal pairs, literally?

Hello!

@Cerberus The advantage of ASL is that others can understand you and/or your baby

@Mahnax good evening

But the baby will start talking soon enough.

@Cerberus The benefit of using ASL is that other kids are learning it too, and daycares etc. know them. And maybe if you encounter deaf kids or adults, you know some words.

But for some of the words, if the ASL version is too complicated, we made up our own version.

2:10 AM

Hmm I see. So perhaps some cruder version of ASL to start with?

Ah OK.

There are lots of benefits to ASL... I wonder if learning ASL has the same benefits for cognitive development as learning a second language is supposed to have.

Why not?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Certainly

It could open a new linguistic dimension for the child.

Of course, if I just use a few key words from ASL, that's not the same as exposing them to fluent speech.

Some of the iconicity in ASL is amusing.

For example, to sign "milk" you take your hand and squeeze like you're squeezing an udder.

2:13 AM

@Kosmonaut heheh yeah

How is everyone this evening?

Just fine, thanks

@Kosmonaut Nice to actually meet you, by the way.

@Mahnax well, there's good news and bad. Good: Kosmonaut is back! Bad: Toronto's mayor forced council to vote on scrapping the 5-cent plastic bag tax bylaw, because he wanted to get rid of the tax, but council instead voted to ban all plastic bags from all retail stores in the city period.

Nice to meet you too

2:16 AM

gods Toronto's mayor is a joke.

@Cerberus Do you mean the one with the syntactic trees, or what?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ouch, that's kind of stupid.

Plastic bags are banned in retail stores?

@Mahnax Mayor Ford has the Midas touch of Stupid. Everything he touches turns stupid.

What goes on in Canada?

2:17 AM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 At least our mayor hasn't done anything noticeably scandalous.

Yet.

@Kosmonaut yeah... originally they imposed a 5-cent fee to try to reduce plastic bag use and encourage re-usable bag use. The mayor had this bee in his bonnet about that fee and finally forced the issue...

I think here in Alberta our fees are actually $0.15 per plastic shopping bag.

I could be wrong though, I don't often buy them.

Meanwhile in the US... we ordered groceries from Peapod (who delivers to your house) and every 2-3 items was double-bagged in plastic

We had probably 30-40 plastic bags from one set of groceries.

Personally I don't like the fee because I used to USE those shopping bags for things like lining garbage cans. So I'm being punished because other people are irresponsible with their bags. But fine, tragedy of the commons or whatever, so they impose a fee. But the fee isn't technically a tax: the retailer just keeps it.

@Kosmonaut yikes

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, we tend to hoard them and reuse them for future shopping trips, lunches, etc.

2:20 AM

That's like stuff that comes from japan or korea. It's individually wrapped in a tray that's sealed in a bag which is in a box which is sealed in a bag.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But at least that looks super-neat and obsessively organized. This is just... I don't even know.

So anyway now plastic bags are banned entirely? which means that when you buy milk and it's covered in milk drippings (in Canada, our milk comes in bags, for those of you who don't know), or when you buy meat and it's dripping, or when you buy fruit and you want to bag it up... I guess you can't do that now.

Just put all them individual lychee fruit into the shopping cart, that'll work well.

Don't they at least allow those little thin baggies for meat and whatnot?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Your milk comes in bags?

@Mahnax you seriously don't know? you don't have that out west?

2:22 AM

@Mahnax Yeah, wait... what?

Milk in a bag? What is this sorcery?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No, we don't. We have 250 and 500 mL cartons, 1 and 2L cartons, and 4L jugs.

Milk bags are plastic bags that hold milk. They are usually stored in a pitcher or jug with one of the corners cut off to allow for pouring. A typical milk bag contains approximately 1 litres of milk. Popularity Milk bags are common in several countries and regions of the world, including Canada. They were also common in Bulgaria and other Balkan countries during the Soviet bloc period, but their popularity diminished after 1989. Declining popularity in this region is attributed to the lower shelf appeal of the milk bags compared to others emerging at the time such as Tetra Pak and pl...

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Why is it in a bag? To reduce packaging or...?

The girl in the video is saying it's easier to ship, more cost-effective, and better for the environment.

2:24 AM

@Kosmonaut it is easier to package for the vendors

@Kosmonaut Yup!

Huh.

I am surrounded by Chinese stores, and they have lots of things in bags.

Now that I think about it, I have actually heard of milk bags before.

@MrShiny How thick is the plastic? Do they often burst?

@Cerberus Ha ha. That's one of my least favorite answers.

I just don't think it fits with English.SE

Well, the whole question I mean.

2:26 AM

@Mahnax The plastic is pretty strong. I've never seen one burst.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ah OK.

@Kosmonaut I suppose not; but we didn't have Ling then.

And yet, it's common for the milk bags at the grocery store to be wet with spilled milk from somewhere.

Same here for milk cartons.

And since my son is allergic to milk, I like to double-bag the milk bag in a store bag, which has no milk on the outside.

Only now I won't be able to do that.

2:28 AM

@Cerberus with Durian, you can't take that for granted.

I love how naïve Chinese marketing is.

But the fact that English speakers say "I often eat apples" and "I have often eaten apples", while French say "I eat often apples" and "I have often eaten apples" is explained by that diagram, basically.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You can take for granted that it is incorrect.

Well, can be explained with that diagram.

2:29 AM

@Kosmonaut Yeah, I'm sure it is. My brain just can't hold so many unknown variables at the same time.

@Cerberus Anyway, just forget it. It's dumb.

Like V and T and the other things. I have to think about each one in order to remember what it was again.

V for verb, T for tense.

Right.

Hey, speaking of French, have any of you heard of Duolingo?

2:30 AM

Nope.

Non.

Is it about two languages?

Naaaahh.

Two tongues, perhaps.

Better.

duolingo.com

It's an interesting idea.

They want to translate the web and help you learn a second language at the same time.

2:34 AM

I think it must all hinge on the ratings system.

I have a feeling there could be a lot of garbage translations.

Yeah. The ratings are very important.

Hmm interesting. I'd like to see it in action.

As would I.

Also, the automated system needs to be able to judge sentence difficulty — not easy.

But it seemed as though they were offering sentences for translation without context?

2:35 AM

@Cerberus Yes, I was just about to say that too. That's a real toughie.

@Cerberus Yes, that is the case, it would seem.

It's unfortunate.

Yeah, lots of obstacles on the road.

Nevertheless, I'm going to give it a shot.

Maybe it will help with my French.

Yeah why not.

So the idea is that you practice with sentences that have been translated by people at higher levels before, so that you can check your translation against theirs to see whether you did it right?

Like Recaptcha?

But in this case, who watches the watchers?

I don't have a complete picture yet.

@Cerberus I didn't see anything about doing that, specifically. I thought it was just that people could review your translations.

And rate them.

2:38 AM

Oh.

Hmm.

And I guess it would also offer on-the-fly translation suggestions of single words to help you along, if needed.

It's an interesting idea, but really depends on the community.

So how is this more efficient than just having people review Google Translations?

Or just doing it themselves?

I don't think it's necessarily about efficiency.

@Cerberus Lots of random people will do it for fun and for free?

Because people like reviewing other people?

I see.

2:40 AM

I think it will be fun.

@Cerberus They... might? We'll see

I did that for several months straight, last winter.

Several days a week, several hours at a time.

I honestly think it is slower than just doing it yourself if the translation has to be good.

Then again, if the first person to try did a great job, and it doesn't have to be perfect, it can be quite fast.

And let's assume they do in fact offer context. Perhaps one sentence at a time, but all from the same text and in the right order.

@Cerberus I doubt they'll do that though.

Because the system is supposed to choose sentences that are skill-level appropriate.

Hmm.

Then I remain sceptical.

Well, do either of you intend to try it?

2:46 AM

This is definitely not easy in the way that recaptcha kind of is.

@Mahnax I'm curious about it.

@Mahnax Sure, it could be fun!

teehee

> there was a bug in the Linux build process at one point that would delete the entire root filesystem if it was run as root. None of the core developers noticed because they don't build as root. Suggestions that the bug be left in as a deterrent were ignored, but things like that can happen.

@Cerberus Cool!

@Kosmonaut It would be interesting to have your perspective.

But it sounds a bit like reviewing anonymous Wiki edits...

I did that for a while.

A short while.

@Mahnax I'll probably try it out too.

I mean, I'm just taking care of a baby and finishing my dissertation, so I was looking for something to do in my spare time.