English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

The colon, in Unicode , is a punctuation mark consisting of two equally sized dots centered on the same vertical line. Punctuation: colon Usage A colon informs the reader that what follows the mark proves, explains, or lists elements of what preceded the mark. The Bedford Handbook describes several uses of a colon. For example, one can use a colon after an independent clause to direct attention to a list, an appositive, or a quotation. Also, it can be used between independent clauses if the second summarizes or explains the first. Furthermore, one may use a colon after the salutation ...

Cerberus

Here, there is some space between the dash and the letter.

MetaEd

Right ... that's the problem with modern systems: you actually don't know what font will be used when your content is rendered.

So you might put a space in before and after an em-dash as a preemptive strike. But that means your dashes are really, really wide.

Cerberus

@MetaEd I don't know: a thin-space (if you will forgive me the hyphen) is rather thin.

MetaEd

I don't think you've got a thinspace there.

Cerberus

Indeed not.

MetaEd

12:56 AM

A thinspace is wider than a hairspace. There should be an obvious space.

Cerberus

And some people find this closeness uncomfortable.

@MetaEd Oh wait...

Then perhaps I meant a hair-space.

MetaEd

I can understand putting a hairspace around a dash when the font was poorly designed. But I just wouldn't use that font.

Cerberus

It's Times New Roman.

You may have heard of it.

MetaEd

That excuses nothing.

I tend to use Garamond a lot.

Cerberus

Ooh, you're tough.

MetaEd

1:01 AM

Times New Roman does put space between the em-dash and other characters; it's just very thin. And at small point sizes, the wrong thing gets done. Instead of rounding up, it rounds down, so there's no apparent space.

And that's a problem in Garamond too. But to be fair the real problem is trying to use an 11 point font at 96 dpi.

@Cerberus On the high resolution monitors of the future, my content will be perfect. :-)

Cerberus

@MetaEd Yes, I guess that's how it works. I actually don't see it as a problem myself. So what if they touch inappropriately?

@MetaEd How high?

MetaEd

@Cerberus Hear, hear.

Cerberus

Good, good.

MetaEd

1:19 AM

@Cerberus I think around 300 dpi for the space to show up at all using 11 point type. To make it an accurate width space you want more. Probably 900 dpi will get you close. Offset presses are good to 2400 dpi I think; beyond that you probably can't see the difference with the naked eye.

Cerberus

That is...a lot.

MetaEd

Considering how fast we've made advances in digital monitors, it won't be many years.

We'll have digital paper.

Cerberus

How about Apple's claim that more than 300 dpi is no longer discernible to the naked eye at a normal computer/phone-vieweing distance?

Their silly "retina" (what an awful mixed metaphor) displays?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Their claim is true for average vision

MetaEd

Stop looking over my shoulder y'all :-)

Cerberus

1:28 AM

So my monitor is 24", 1920x1080.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

probably 1920

MetaEd

I think the claims being made about the resolution of the eye are helpful but not the whole story. There is a whole lot of software behind the eye.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Eh, yes.

@MetaEd Do they even make claims about that? That is even sillier than I thought.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd And there are a whole lot of non-"ideal" viewing circumstances

MetaEd

Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:29 AM

@Cerberus Why is it silly to consider the maximum resolution of what an eye can see?

Cerberus

Does this ^ mean that I have ca. 92 dpi?

MetaEd

I think you have more than that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

your screen resolution? yes

Cerberus

Hmm.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but dpi isn't the whole story

Cerberus

1:30 AM

It is true that I can clearly see the pixels even from my normal viewing distance.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes, computer screens have been held back

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What Ed says.

MetaEd

92 is about right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But let's face it: we know, more or less, just how much a typical eye can see. Yes, it's a wide range with lots of influencing factors. But when you're making, eg, a smartphone, you can ignore many of those factors

But computer screens topped out at around 96dpi because of Windows

Cerberus

91.79 is what my calculations say.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:32 AM

(and maybe because of Mac)

Essentially: too much software was designed in such a way that it broke at higher dpi

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I should think viewing distance was a rather important factor.

MetaEd

But when designing a monitor you have to take moiré patterns into account. You can't just say that you need 300 dpi because the eye can resolve 300 dpi. Your polygons don't necessarily conform to pixel boundaries. You need at least 600 dpi, probably more. Imagine for example that your hairspace begins on one pixel and ends on another pixel at 300 dpi. It would basically disappear. Go to 600 dpi and it would appear but be a bit too narrow.

Cerberus

The question should be: when can the eye see the difference between a certain dpi and another dpi that is, say, 20 % higher?

And then the added conditions should be: in the typical applications that people use.

MetaEd

If you want to be able to present a line that is 1/300 inch wide, you need a much higher screen resolution.

Cerberus

Including games and text.

@MetaEd Exactly. And that is just one factor.

MetaEd

1:36 AM

And in fact the eye can do more like 1/450 at one foot, according to the Wikipedia article, so what you would really need is like 1800 dpi. Which, I will point out, again is why offset press is not overdoing it when they do 2400 dpi.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd sure, and if you want to display a line that is 1/600th of an inch you need more than 1200dpi... I suspect Shannon's theorem applies here, probably...

Cerberus

@MetaEd How does a laser printer do it, btw?

MetaEd

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, but then you'd have to put it awfully close to your face to notice it, even if the line were perfect.

@Cerberus Laser printers? Well my good laser printer is 600dpi. And the dots are made of a small round pile of smaller black particles. So laser printers are still not as good as offset press.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd right. But my point is that for a smartphone, you probably won't ever want to make a line that's 1/300th of an inch because it'd be invisible at arms's length

Cerberus

@MetaEd It achieves a sharpness that is indiscernible from infinite for vectors.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:37 AM

@Cerberus it depends

Cerberus

I have looked at vectors from my cheap laserjet, and the curves seem perfect.

MetaEd

@MrShinyandNew安宇 People hold their smartphones a foot or two away, like they do a book. So a 1/300 or 1/400 inch wide mark is probably the most you'd ever want to support.

Cerberus

Many near-sighted people hold their phones much closer in bed, for example.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Ok, so I'm convinced that in general, if you wanted to draw a grid of lines and spaces that are 1/300th of an inch apart, you'd need a 600+dpi screen. But in practice you can get by with much less because that almost never matters

Cerberus

When they read a book or something.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:38 AM

brb

MetaEd

@Cerberus No, if you compare laser with offset you'll still see a difference. Certainly not under all conditions. But definitely under some conditions.

Cerberus

Offset?

MetaEd

Bottom line: future readers of my blog will see accurate space around em-dashes at 11 dpi only when their handheld device resolutions get up past 1200 dpi.

Cerberus

@MetaEd I'm looking at a C, and it really looks perfect.

MetaEd

So that's the future device I'm writing for, obviously.

Cerberus

1:40 AM

How do they do that anyway? Surely that is more than 600 dpi?

MetaEd

@Cerberus I'd give it a "C".

Cerberus

Pah.

MetaEd

vi.sualize.us/…

Cerberus

All right, but then the texture of the paper comes into play too...

So this is not 600 dpi, or is it?

MetaEd

Yes, the texture of paper definitely comes into it.

the-print-guide.blogspot.com/2010/08/…

That last link has some great enlargements.

Cerberus

1:48 AM

No worky.

MetaEd

Incidentally, @Cerberus, a good font does not put any space on the em-dash itself: the space is created by the characters. That way you can string two or three em-dashes together without gaps.

@Cerberus What, the link? Hmm, works for me.

Cerberus

Right, that makes sense.

@MetaEd Pas pour moi. Perhaps it is the CDN.

Let me move to America for a sec, hold on.

Still not working.

Another browser, then.

Oh, now it works all of a sudden, same browser.

Now I'm back in dear, old Holland.

Aaand...it doesn't work any more.

And now it is working again, in America.

MetaEd

Probably depends on which party is in ascendancy.

Cerberus

Okay, it is definitely location, location, location.

Now let's try England.

Compu'er says no.

Okay, then over to the New World again.

It only works there.

Mahnax

Hello everyone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:02 AM

which link only works there?

the .us one?

hey, anyone who wants to try to understand Quebec French, you can watch videos here: tetesaclaques.tv

Cerberus

No, the Blogspot one.

Can you try it?

20 mins ago, by MetaEd

http://the-print-guide.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-was-it-printed-simple-ways-to.html

@Mahnax Hi!

Mahnax

@Cerberus Greetings!

I found out that I won't be getting surgery on my toe anytime soon.

Cerberus

@MetaEd: This is a lie! My screen doesn't have that, it's white! ^

@Mahnax Oh...why not?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Apparently nobody's willing to do it.

Cerberus

Huh?

Not even the neighbours?

Mahnax

2:06 AM

We'll have to pay about $250 or something.

Cerberus

No insurance?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Oh, you so funny.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it works for me

Mahnax

@Cerberus For some reason, it's not covered.

One of those more obscure surgeries, apparently.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 OK, then it is a continental issue.

@Mahnax Or is not a deductible expense?

Mahnax

2:07 AM

@Cerberus I really don't know about all that.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Mahnax

Please don't ask questions. My brain is fried, like the chicken I served for eight hours today.

And because of a stubborn cook it all took way longer than it should have.

Cerberus

Why do you like pie?

Mahnax

It tastes good…?

Cerberus

Why does it taste good?

Mahnax

2:09 AM

smacks Cerberus

Cerberus

Haha.

Mahnax

grumbles

Cerberus

I can't believe you even answered that.

Mahnax

Me neither…

Cerberus

Why don't you sit down, relax, and look at some pretty pictures.

Mahnax

2:09 AM

Told you my brain was fried!

I am currently overheating to death.

There is no "relax".

MetaEd

9pm here and still 84 degrees in the office.

Cerberus

@MetaEd That is outrageous.

No a/c?

@Mahnax Aww...a/c!

Ice!

MetaEd

It's an old heat pump, just can't keep up when it's so hot out of doors.

Mahnax

@Cerberus I can't be bother to go upstairs, my window is open, I should cool off in a few minutes.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Good.

Mahnax

2:12 AM

@Cerberus Ayup.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Thick-walled buildings are the only way to go.

But all this modern crap is terrible.

My house is medium.

Though old.

MetaEd

This is a metal warehouse with an office built in to it. Don't think there's much insulation.

Cerberus

Oh God...metal!?

MetaEd

Sure. It's Texas. We love metal buildings.

Cerberus

MetaEd

2:14 AM

Actually, we love limestone buildings, but that gets expensive.

Cerberus

Limestone good.

But why metal buildings?

I don't think I've ever been inside a metal building.

It's usually bricks or concrete.

My house does have limestone ornaments, but otherwise it's all bricks.

MetaEd

Easy to put up. You just screw them together.

Cerberus

Isn't metal expensive?

MetaEd

Sure, but it's also thin.

Cerberus

Why not use plastic instead?

Or cardboard?

MetaEd

2:18 AM

We'd use plastic if we could, probably.

Oh. Some dumbass set the fan to "on" instead of "auto" and I assumed the damned thing was running.

Unnecessary suffering.

Mahnax

@MetaEd It's not nice to refer to fans as "damned."

MetaEd

Pointless complaining.

Damn them all. Damn them fans all to hell.

Mahnax

gasps in horror

Are you even allowed to say that in Texas?

Cerberus

Welcome, welcome, little fans!

MetaEd

I'm a fantheist.

So of course I can say it.

Mitch

2:22 AM

@MetaEd So where is it? Haiku? Alexandrines? free verse?

@Mahnax Holy crap little cow nuggets, that's -all- they say down in the heart of the heart of the world.

Mahnax

@Mitch Hehe, alright.

Mitch

Hold it...how did Texas get involved here?

MetaEd

@Mitch Oh. The link's in the next line.

@Mitch Complaining about the heat.

Mitch

The line I haven't seen yet?

Mahnax

9 mins ago, by MetaEd

Sure. It's Texas. We love metal buildings.

Mitch

2:23 AM

Oh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, it's 30 C here in Toronto, but my A/C works really well so it's only 22C indoors

Mitch

really? Who doesn't? So easy to put together.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When I was a child we had a shed made of metal. One day, it blew away. Just lifted up off the ground, and flew into the neighbour's yard.

Mahnax

Haha.

Mitch

and aerodynamic

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:25 AM

My mom watched the whole thing from the kitchen

Mahnax

Once it go so windy here, someone's trampoline left their backyard.

Mitch

Once, I ... no...I can't top that.

Mahnax

It has been windy the past two days here.

Mitch

once a kid was -on- the trampoline when the trampoline flew away.

Mahnax

Around 40 km/h, gusting to 60 km/h off and on.

Mitch

2:26 AM

She's a senator now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I know a girl who fell off a trampoline and broke her neck

Mitch

For real? that's pretty rough. All the ER docs don't let their kids play on slip and slides either.

Mahnax

I know a trampoline who fell off a girl and broke her neck.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

They had to attach a brace to her skull to immobilize it so that her neck could heal

she didn't get paralyzed or anything but it was close

Mahnax

Ouch.

Mitch

2:28 AM

Having one trampoline fall off a child is a tragedy. Having them fall off each other is just carelessness.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I remember when she came to school one day with that thing on her head, there were literally bolts of metal drilled into her skull. It was so gross. And yet: she's ok now, so I'm sure she doesn't regret the inconvenience.

Mitch

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's very lucky.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

actually I know another girl who broke her neck in a car crash and also needed the same procedure afterwards, and also wasn't paralyzed.

Mitch

This is getting suspicious, your being around all these people with similar accidents.

MetaEd

A good friend of mine's dad made an awful lot of money fixing peoples' legs after ski boots went solid. Before then, you'd break your ankle and that was no big deal. The new boots splinter your leg bones.

And he didn't let his family ski.

Mitch

2:30 AM

What were they before they were solid?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch liquid

Mitch

people are slaves to fashion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

at least slaves aren't fashionable or else there'd be a circular dependency

Mitch

navel gazing narcissists those slave fashioning slaves

@MetaEd so when did the switch from (something) to solid boots happen? (roughly)

MetaEd

@Mitch agassiztrading.com/Skiing/ski-accessory/ski-boots-1.htm

The move to plastic boots that won't let you flex your ankle sideways was in the 60's

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:40 AM

well, it's getting late for me, so I must be off. bye everyone., bye, cerb, bye, cerb, bye, cerb.

MetaEd

Lateral rigidity = lots of money for people who rebuild legs.

Mitch

@MetaEd so this conspiracy by orthopedists that you've uncovered...

MetaEd

Was masterminded by the KGB, yes.

They were trying to destroy the Swiss Army so there would be a neutrality vacuum in Europe.

Mitch

@MetaEd that makes me feel (only sorta) better because that's well before most people who are skiing were born...so its not like they kknew of the better shatter-less-leg times

MetaEd

I'm sure it's easier to ski though. That's the trade-off.

Sorry. That's the tradeöff.

I forget where I am.

Mitch

2:46 AM

@MetaEd You know -why- the swiss are that way? It wouldn't change anything, no one actually lives there. It's already a vacuum. a cold empty kind of vacuum. in between better places.

in between places that don't contribute to shattering everybody's legs.

MetaEd

Wow. That makes me think of "Out Of The Silent Planet". Haven't thought about that book for ages.

Mitch

@MetaEd Oh -those- kind of actual real boots..

@MetaEd switzerland reminds you of that?

MetaEd

No. Switzerland is the target of the KGB conspiracy.

You see, you get the new boots on the market, and then the Swiss adopt them, and then a lot of them break their legs in military exercises ...

You know a conspiracy theory isn't as funny when you have to explain it.

Well, it is high time I went home. Post Toasties.

No, that's not right.

Cheerio.

Cerberus

> According to Wikipedia, ACTA needs six countries to ratify it before coming into force. If three more countries drop out besides Europe and Australia, such as Mexico, New Zealand, and South Korea, then America will have to find new countries for it to come into force at all.

Talking about Switzerland.

Do you people think the second sentence is incorrect?

Should I have said "if three more countries drop out after Europe and Australia"?

Somehow, several people took this as "Europe is a country".

Which seems extremely silly: could anyone who didn't know that Europe wasn't a country write something like this?

Mitch

3:03 AM

@Cerberus I don't think that is relevant. The immediate implicature of "if 3 more countries drop out after Europe and Australia" is that Europe is a country, which is jarring.

How about "after Australia and those of Europe"?

Or "After Europe and Australia, if three countries drop out, such as M, NZ, or SK, then blah dee blah dee blah"

Cerberus

@Mitch I guess this would have been clearer. But it was in a comment on a web log.

@Mitch This implies that Europe consists only of countries, while in fact the EU will drop out as whole.

> Six fruits are needed. If three more fruits drop out besides this fruit basket and the apple (both of which have already dropped out), there won't be enough fruits left.

How does this sound to you?

simchona

Can't Nortonn S just go away?

For a long, long time?

Mitch

3:35 AM

@Cerberus Same as the first example with countries (except irrelevantly, fruit is a mass noun so you dont say 'fruits' Six -pieces of fruit' and 'won't be enough fruit left')

but relevantly 'beside all the ones in the basket and the apple (all of which have already dropped out)'

@simchona what now?

Cerberus

@Mitch Alright, I actually agree, and I prefer not using the non-mass "fruit", but many people say that, don't they?

@Mitch Are you sure you would look at a reply to a comment to a weblog this way?

Mitch

@Cerberus in the same way, people also say 'fishes' which I prefer not to say (and is also not standard)

@Cerberus You asked to judge closely the sentence, but when reading a weblog I probably wouldn't care. "Europe a country? Oh yeah probably meant a bunch of countries in Europe or maybe all of them."

@simchona I'm not in disagreement, but...so he's beating prepositions to death

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah OK, I see that a lot too. But there it's easier, because "fish" is also plural.

@Mitch Yeah OK, that's what I wanted to hear.

I guess I wasn't clear at all.

I asked because several people thought that I didn't know that Europe isn't a country.

Which I thought was a stupid interpretation.

@Mitch: Ahhh! You break my computer!

I use a script to automatically accept spelling corrections on the press of a key.

And I need there to be no other red on the screen than the underlining of wrong spelling!

@Mitch: Is there any special significance in the exact colour FF0000 in your picture?

Mitch

3:58 AM

@Cerberus well, they probably read better than I do.

simchona

@mitch he's sock puppeting. While being suspended.

And plagiarizing at least some of his questions

Mitch

@Cerberus really, a specific color -somewhere- on the screen messes up your script?

maybe my picture needs to be spellchecked.

Cerberus

@Mitch No, worse!

Mitch

@Cerberus no, no special significance. it's just RGB(255,0,0) = the most saturated true red there is.

Cerberus

@Mitch How much would I have to pay you to change the FF0000 in your picture to, say, FF0001? Or to make sure no two FF0000 pixels are horizontally contiguous?

Mitch

4:00 AM

and it was done not by hand but by funtion.

Cerberus

I do like your avatar.

Mitch

Just for you?

Cerberus

But it would look even better in FF0001!

@Mitch I will do anything!

Mitch

!! paint my house?

Cerberus

Sure, bring it over.

Mitch

4:01 AM

nice.

Cerberus

As long as I don't have to paint it FF0000.

Mitch

It's kinda late. how about in the morning?

Cerberus

Woohoo! Thanks!!

That would be great.

Mitch

I had already edited it somewhat by hand because the green was kind of garish.

Cerberus

The thing is, I have no other way of detecting the wiggly red line than pixel search. I can't think of any other method.

Mitch

4:03 AM

that seems really...both hardcore and brittle at the same time.

Cerberus

Hmm I suppose I could restrict pixel search to the typing area while the window called "chat.stackexchange" is active...

@Mitch Believe me, I don't like it. But I really don't know how else I could make Firefox accept the first spelling suggestion...

Ah, the funny thing is, I have only discovered this just now, because you only have FF0000 in your large icon.

So I should just not let you talk for more than two lines.

But what if you're in a garrulous mood?

Hmm.

I think restricting pixel search to the input box is the best idea.

I will do that in the morning.

Because now it's 6.10, and bed time. Such coincidence.

Mitch

@Cerberus that can be arranged.

Cerberus

Lala.

Mitch

also...GIMP, as wonderful as it is, is difficult to use if you don't know things, and I don't. So it'll have to wait for the more coherent morning for the color fix too.

@simchona not to forget you...

sockpuppeting is annoying, until it is used badly.

the kinds of questions he's plagiarizing seem ... well not that big a deal. like pennies dropped in the street.

(where are they plagiarized from?) but again it is behavior that is associated with much worse and he hasn't learned to stop it.

@Cerberus: ha, on large icon

garrouslesness wins.

in your face FF0001

and with that...I'm out.

Cerberus

@Mitch No, don't worry, I can take care of it by limiting search to the typing box, in said morning.

@Mitch You biatch!

Oops I meant "blessed friend", but I couldn't use my spelling corrector.

Alas.

Bye!

@Mitch Huh? This icon doesn't have FF0000, somehow!

While this one has:

Oh shi...

Okay, bed time!

MetaEd

4:31 AM

In any given situation, if you are not sure who's the patsy, you're the patsy.

Fishes is Pirate.

Cerberus

4:44 AM

Pirate speak?

I have seen it alot.

On the internetz.

MetaEd

Yeah. Like "concrete galoshes".

Cerberus

That means drowning people by attaching concrete to their feet and dropping them in the water?

MetaEd

Yes.

Cerberus

But...did real pirates have (the ingredients for) concrete on board?

MetaEd

It was spoken on Star Trek.

So yes.

Cerberus

4:46 AM

Ohh.

Amen.

Mahnax

6:15 AM

@jsb They killed dating-advice.

@Danielδ Yes, you're quite a goose!

Meysam

7:36 AM

@Flaw Are you about to explode?

Flaw

Boom.

Consider "Why doesn't it work?". It is an acceptable sentence.
Now remove the contraction - "Why does not it work". It sounds unnatural.
"not" is forced to change position to form "Why does it not work".

What accounts for this?

Meysam

@Flaw Interesting question. I am sure somebody will answer it soon

Flaw

I could find similar questions on the main site, but have not found something that resolves this entirely. I'm not sure if I should make a new question.