On the positive side, you have a lot of time before your characters are high enough level to face this guy.

@Rubiksmoose my whole intent with this was to gauge where he was CR wise so I would know how to adjust him

so it seems like the big problem then is that the DMG's instructions on how to calculate CR are confusing - and your NPC isn't defined precisely enough to be able to properly apply those instructions

@Eternallord66 Which, by the way, you did a really nice job with

@Eternallord66 Which is good; but what you lack now is details about the BBEG's capabilities. Saying "they have all spells and magic items" is technically valid as an encounter design, but asking us to evaluate the CR of that creature would place the question in "too broad" territory: even setting aside the possibility that the creature literally uses all items, they'd still be limited by Attunement limits, and we'd have to evaluate which items we think you might choose to have them attuned.

@Carcer The DMG has a table for CR but my guy in most instances is off the chart

okay, so

Not to mention individual, specific items that might have mutually-exclusive effects; we don't know which this character might choose to prefer.

possibly something that also needs to be understood is that CR is an abstraction used as a measure of encounter difficulty. It's not an inherent property of a creature

so if you take for example some generic fighter

his CR if he has all his equipment handy is going to be much higher than his CR if the players catch him in the toilets with his pants down

it's not that the character intrinsically has a CR; it's that, with this equipment, in these circumstances, this is what the difficulty of fighting this guy currently is

and the rules for calculating CR given by the DMG are heavily affected by what spells and items the NPC will have available, because that changes how hard they are to hit, what their damage output is, etc.

it's just literally not possible to say what his CR is without assigning him a fixed list of spells and equipment, because as Xirema says just because he has access to almost everything, he can't actually be using everything at once

@Eternallord66 what the previous user (GcL) told you is not strictly correct since it really depends on how you want to define them. So don't assume that BBEG has to have an off-the-scale CR. That is incorrect.

@Carcer To add to this: some creatures actually have multiple CR values that are contingent on circumstances of the creature in question.

@Xirema Yes, there's some in the MM that have different CRs depending on whether you encounter them in their lair or not, isn't there?

For example, a Demilich has the following description for its CR:

> Challenge 18 (20,000 XP) or 20 (25,000 XP) when encountered in lair

The DMG is not clear on how to calculate damage output so I can't even guess

@Eternallord66 You're right, it's not. If we get the question to an answerable state, I or someone else will explain how that works.

...sounds like 5e went back to the 3.5e philosophy on challenge ratings.

So basically there is no way for me to get an answer to this question.

@Eternallord66 In terms of getting this question answered, I think the most helpful thing you could do would be to just decide on a list of spells he has memorised, a list of equipment he's carrying/is attuned to at that particular moment, and then we'd be able to do a worked example based on that. I think a good answer would also include suggestions and examples of how their CR would change if you chose one spell over another, for instance.

And I think that's the most helpful answer we'd be able to give you.

Hi @Eternallord66

One of my issues is I don't know much about wizards or their spells.

You may also want hold off a bit. If this is your bbeg and your characters are at level 2, youve got a lot of time. This is an endgame level 17+ boss.

@Eternallord66 I contend that knowing the CR won't help you very much, but that's okay. You've got an epic idea, and worrying about the CR is an instance of the mechanics of the game getting in the way of your story telling. There are ways the mechanics could help you and your party tell a compelling and entertaining story.

On the other hand, we would like to avoid you accidentally murdering the party, which is where CR is at least partially useful.

One reason I'm trying to do this now is because of my little experience with wizards. I want a good basis to work with and adjust as I learn

Since your new to DMing, I'd also suggest simplifying and not homebrewing until you're comfortable with encounter and monster mechanics.

@Eternallord66 Maybe it would be helpful if rather than starting with a level 18 wizard and going "right, what's he got?", what you do instead is you start with the character at level 1, and then level them up fully level by level, choosing the spells learned/memorised as you go

@Eternallord66 You could try with a series of smaller wizardy bad guys. Roll some up at each level and use them as mini bosses for the party along the way. That could help you get a feel for how they play.

Also, they're expendable, so you don't have to worry about their untimely demise mucking up the plot.

then you're breaking it down into manageable pieces for yourself rather than just sitting yourself down in front of the whole spell list, which would be daunting for anyone

@Carcer I partially did that. He started as a rogue before becoming a wizard

I think that'd probably be really useful if your goal is to understand wizards better

GcL's advice is good too, design some lesser wizards first and try those out before going on to designing the big guy

And narratively, you don't have to worry about the stats of the BBEG. Let the players hear all sort of tales about him. Like, "one time he set a whole city on fire" or something. Since they're stories told, they don't have to be accurate or true to any stats. So you can build up your BBEG's legend before you actually get to figuring out the stats.

I'm looking at magic items that wouldn't be obvious for him to have on him and attuned to. he literally would have every wizard spell available but the question I don't know is which ones he would have prepared.

@Eternallord66 That's a good question. Also, which ones would he have prepared and when.. and for what? What does your BBEG do during the year?

They think he is a cowardly king right now and that the bad guys are two gods competing against each other

@Eternallord66 Cool. So he's letting the heavy hitters duke it out?

@GcL he's just a king to everyone

@GcL No they are his unknowing pawns and one of them is just his court wizard pretending

So he's hiding his power? I like that idea.... might shamelessly copy that in one of my games.

@Eternallord66 Ooo... plot thickens. How are you going to make this apparent to your players. I like the story, and I like it when the players know or know about what's going on.

@GcL they won't know until the end when they "kill the god" (court wizard) and the king reveals himself

Do you have any plans for big reveals or things? like "it was his court wizard the whole time!"

You may have missed it before, but I don't understand why you need all this now? This npc is very far away from an encounter for the current PCs

@NautArch I want a basis to build off of and change as I learn

@Eternallord66 So two big fights in a row? or they kill the court wizard and the king reveals himself and there is some time between when they have to fight the king?

Gotta run again. Chat with you later maybe. @Eternallord66 I find your ideas interesting.

@Eternallord66 honestly, I think you're getting ahead of yourself

Your very just started out, keep things simple. I've got an active campaign where my players have just gotten to 4. They haven't even begun the actual main plot and I haven't started to build the bbeg. There's more than enough work in developing my story lines, helping my players get theirs integrated, and building encounters.

And those I'm mostly using vanilla monsters but sometimes tweak a bit.

It's the tweaking that's going to help you understand how to build bigger and more powerful monsters later.

@Eternallord66 If you're planning on changing it anyway you don't really need CR of it now do you? And if you're looking to learn "monster making" and would like help with that (which is completely fair) it is probably easier to start with simpler (fewer, less powerful features etc.) examples

Your need to build a base of understanding monster mechanics, encounters, and your players.

i wanted the CR so i would know what to change to make it manageable. creating the story and campaign is nothing for me. i have no problem with integrating things or how to use the monsters available. the only thing is the big guy

If you've never DM'd before I don't think that's necessarily accurate. But good luck.

I have a masters level understanding of writing and i have a great imagination. yes, i may not type like it but i have a great comprehension of the English language.

your grasp of narrative and the English language isn't what's in question

it's your system mastery of the mechanics of dungeons and dragons

@Eternallord66 also, for what it's worth, if there CR you've come out with seems like it's even higher that a Tarrasque then there's a reason for that. A Level 20 PC does not equal a CR 20 NPC. PCs and NPCs are built differently so trying to turn a PC into a NPC generally isn't going to work out as well as you might hope, especially if you're new to this kind of stuff. See: Are there guidelines for party stats by CR? and the related links

the only mechanics i don't have down is the creation and tweaking of monsters

you were saying earlier that you don't really understand wizards and their spells very well. "One of my issues is I don't know much about wizards or their spells."

yes that is true but that is not mechanics

Okay, I think we're having a definition problem which isn't really relevant to the actual point then

I'm not very well versed with wizards and their spells but the mechanics of this game are pretty simple. i just have trouble with the creation and tweaking of monsters and NPC's

your problem is that you don't understand wizards. Your solution so far is to jump straight in to designing a very high level wizard. Several of us are suggesting that you're going to have a much easier time if you design lower level wizards to get the hang of wizards and their spells before you try to sink your teeth into the greater challenge

we're not trying to insult your intelligence by saying that; it's advice born of our own experience in playing the game

Yes i get that and i will take the advice. i was responding to why i made this guy the way i did and when.

people ask why so i answered

i appreciate the help and advise

@Eternallord66 okay, cool. I think there's maybe a little bit of a communication style problem between us - it felt like you were arguing that that approach was the right way to do it

in fairness I have absolutely been on the wrong end of that myself before, it's caused major fights between me and my partner sometimes

where I was trying to explain why I did something and they thought I was saying that what I did was objectively right

Yeah i get that a lot with my partner as well

well I'm glad we all got on the same page in the end

it is late here though and I need to get to bed. Good luck with everything

thank you.

i was worried about the high AC and Con/Int scores

Well one spell he will have is Mind Blank