last day (21 days later) » 

15:46
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Q: How to prevent my child from being indoctrinated with Christianity?

Christian SauerContext: We are living in a Germany and have a small child (15 months) who will go to a public kindergarten at the age of 24 months. Problem: In our region, all public funded kindergartens also have a denomination, typically catholic. All kindergartens inform the children of god, will sing relig...

Are there private kindergartens in your area?
Note that in Germany private kindergartens will get public funding especially if the number of places in the city-run ones are not sufficient for the demand. Private does not necessarily mean costlier, but may expect a bit more involvement from the parents - which can actually be a bonus as you will likely be able to have more influence.
@scaaahu Yes, but they are also over capacity and expensive, so we would probably not be able to get a place or afford them
"So how can I help my child to understand that most of this is, at best, just a funny story without relevance? I want him to be able to make a conscious choice when he is able to - but I do NOT want him to believe simply because he has to ingest this at this impressionable age." This is such a contradictory statement. You want your kid to decide by himself and yet you are delivering him your own unwarranted/unproved statement that "most of this is, at best, just a funny story without relevance". Just give the facts, i.e. people believe in different things and can do so in free societies.
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vsz
vsz
Phrases like "indocrinated", "abhorrent", "deeply offensive", "imaginary friend" etc. might make a lot of readers question your real intention. Are you looking for an advice in a real life situation, or is your goal merely to trash-talk a religion you hate? If it's the latter, go write your own blog, this site is not the place for it. If it's the former, a more neutral and polite description will help a lot. Most of the text in your question is just ranting. Talking more about what you want and less about what you think of other people's views will make it easier for us to find a useful answer
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15:46
I am an atheist myself , but saying that Christianity is "just a funny story without relevance" is simply ridiculous (does this need explaining?) Teach your child about religion in a serious and non-derogatory fashion, and hopefully that will allow for a personal decision on their part.
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When I was a young kid, I did openly criticize my religion teacher (~7 years old): I was sent to see the Director, my parents argued that they were paying the school fee, and in the end I spent my whole scholarship with the special permission to not assist to the religion classes and instead spend my time in the library. Apparently, only one other kid got the same privilege in my school, and we became among the most literate kids of the block. But at that time, it was the money of our parents that allowed that: you had to pay to evade religion.
@vsz How is this relevant? OP has legitimate reasons for wanting to avoid religious indoctrination. Would the question be any different if he were Muslim or Jewish? The problem of finding a nondenominational kindergarten in Germany is very real.
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vsz
vsz
@KonradRudolph : just look at the language of the question and even to the original text before profanity was removed. The problem is not with what religion it is about, but the text was formulated in a way which makes it look more like a rant than an honest question. There are many questions on the parenting, politics and skeptics site which are thinly disguised variants of "Hey those people are idiots and I hate them. Vote my question up if you hate them too!", and it gets stale after a while.
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@vsz Far enough, let’s clear up the rant — though I have to say I am very empathic to OP’s need for a good rant, the situation is really quite bad. My point is just: regardless of OP’s language, the complaint is 100% legitimate, and the word “indoctrination” in particular doesn’t strike me as controversial. What’s a better word to use? And “imaginary friend” was a potential quote by a child, which is something I remember saying almost exactly like this. You seem to be actively searching for controversy.
Are you sure all denominated kindergartens in your area do these things (on a noteworthy/indoctrination level)? Except for the occasional choir song that had a Christian background I never felt a particular Christian theological teaching at the local kindergarten I know. Common decency? yes, potentially associated by some of the staff with their Christian denomination, but rather rarely taught in that context. You may of course be in a truly traditional / particularly devout region, but to my experience having the denomination doesn't mean theological Christian teaching.
15:46
@luchonacho : I suppose the OP's point is that to allow the child to make a conscious choice when he is able to, he needs to prevent him from being subject to religious influence when he is still too young to analyse that information or to apply doubt on grown-ups' words. It don't look like the OP is trying to teach atheism to the 2 years old; if teachers at the kindergarten wouldn't teach the child any christian stories, the OP wouldn't consider critisizing christian beliefs, but a funny story without relevance is what he could tell the child for him not to believe these stories primo face
@KonradRudolph "Indoctrination" is a word typically used with a negative connotation (i.e. by cults). The "potential quote" was written by OP, so you can't just excuse that because it's something a kid might say ("no, I wasn't insulting you, I was just quoting an insult someone else might say to you"). The "load of X" used to be more explicit, but the way it stands it's not that much better (the implication is still there). Calling deeply-held beliefs a "funny story without relevance" is quite offensive. Your bias might be blinding you to all the offensive things in this post.
@NotThatGuy OP is using the potential quote specifically to show an example of an insulting situation he wants to avoid. Making it non-offensive would defeat its purpose. As for “indoctrination”, the negative connotation here is intentional because attempts at converting somebody else’s children to your faith through biased information is inherently seen as negative. Your bias might be blinding you to all the offensive things OP is faced with. — I freely acknowledge my own bias but it’s irrelevant here. And I’m not saying OP isn’t likewise offensive but other comments vastly overstate this
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Do you want to indoctrinate the child with a load of atheism?
16:19
@NeilMeyer : The child is not yet 2 years old ! The OP want to prevent him from being indoctrinated with anything, especially before he comes to an age where he can develop critical thinking, and that seems very reasonnable to me.
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2 hours later…
vsz
vsz
18:35
@Evargalo : look at the original wording of the post before profanity was removed. Does it look like "not indoctrinating about anything"?
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3 hours later…
21:27
@ChristianSauer, I think most of what I could contribute has been mentioned in one way or another in the answers, but maybe another perspective/other wording might be useful. I am in a similar situation. I live in Bavaria (quite traditional), and if my son (7) went to a non-religious Kindergarten, my daughter is attending a Catholic one (better from a logistic point of view). You should know that the influence of the religion does not stop at the Kindergarten.
It might also be useful for you or some commentators to know that religion is part of the curriculum of the German school
Some schools offer other choices, the strict minimum in Bavaria is a choice between Roman Catholic, Evangelist or... Ethic (not religious).
So Kids would still learn about ways to behave in society, without the precepts of the religions. But, during the first year, they studied the lifes of Jesus, Martin, Nicholas, and a few others. As they are needed to understand the holidays that rhythm the calendar.
But back to your issue, I think you should clarify to yourself what are your intentions: do you want to teach atheism (or your version of it), or let your child decide for themselves once they are old enough?
Because, the freedom to choose imposes that they have a good understanding of both sides. And seeing that you can and probably will provide one side, you should also ensure they get the other one.
Otherwise, you take that choice for them. In the same way that very religious people do by bringing their kids to Church every weeks, and limiting their extra-scolar activities to religious-only groups.
I'm not judging, just pointing out.
What we try to do for our parts, is discussing it with them. Well only with my son as my daughter is still too young. I have had a few discussions with my son as I was the one to introduce him to the concept of God and religions (many churches around, and kids are curious).
Thus I tried to explain what God could be for many people, stating that neither existence not inexistence can, in the current state of our knowledge, be soundly proven. Therefore people are free to decide for themselves what to believe.
And only then I pointed out that me and my spouse did not, in fact, believe in that existence.
My son usually answers that he, for himself do believe in it. But that's mostly the influence of his friends... not any teacher.
And we do not make a big story out of it. Just saying that whatever he decides, he should really think about it.
But I know that my spouse had a lot of mandatory religious education as kid, but yet ended up atheist. Family has probably more influence that you may believe.
 
2 hours later…
vsz
vsz
23:50
I've seen several times that those parents who raised their children with an aggressive hostility towards religion, ended up seeing those children joining cults or fundamentalist variants of that religion, instead of mainstream and more moderate flavors.
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Regardless whether it's a religion or a political position, if you constantly indoctrinate your children how stupid and evil those people are, sooner or later they meet intelligent and kind members of that group, and then think: maybe my parents were utterly wrong?

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