last day (22 days later) » 

CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
2:21 AM
room topic changed to Sir Michael Atiyah's Proof of the Riemann Hypothesis: For all those planning on watching the live stream of his proof on Monday, September 24, we can meet here and discuss it real time. [proof] [riemann-hypothesis,]
Hi everyone who may join. I'll be available for a little while, but I'm officially signing on 20 or so minutes before the talk begins. So I'll be here around 3:20 am due to my time zone. If you need times let me know. It will be streaming on the Heidelberg-Laureate Forum website's homepage.
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
2:39 AM
It's basically nuts to write a paper on the fine structure constant fyi
There is a site that discusses the fine structure constant, vixra.org/quant e.g. "Of particular importance, electric charge and the fine structure constant are derivable from the polarizability of space"
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
Thanks, I'm going to take a look at that.
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
"To show the power of this approach the paper explains the origin of gravity and the fine structure of photons and elementary particles. "
38
Q: What are the differences between viXra.org and arXiv.org?

SariWhat are the differences between viXra.org and arXiv.org?

arxiv preprint
 
vzn
vzn
in The h Bar, 56 mins ago, by Semiclassical
And, indeed, he does talk about the fine structure constant in his ICM 2018
in The h Bar, 54 mins ago, by Semiclassical
I'm not sure a good point to pick, but maybe start around here: https://youtu.be/fUEvTymjpds?t=2068
Is Sir Michael Atiyah giving lecture on Monday Sept. 25 @ #HLF18? Yes. Will he presenenting a proof of the Riemann Hypothesis? Yes, that is what his abstract says.
Tweeted by HLForum on September 20, 2018 at 7:04 AM
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
3:02 AM
Just to avoid confusion, they had to fix the dates on Twitter. It's officially the 24th. @VZN Currently watching the presentation to see what you're talking about.
Oh my goodness...
@VZN skepticism about tomorrow suddenly rising...
 
vzn
vzn
after talking over the Physics angle with cohorts, now thinking its like a slow- or fast- motion train wreck in play. :( o_O it fits a lot of the criteria of what is called "crank"... and use that word very reservedly...
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
Wow, I was excited at first. I'm starting to think this may turn out very bad. They're letting him speak based on past merit, but after this...
 
vzn
vzn
got really excited about this also, feeling very chagrined at moment, alas it takes substantial work to figure out whats going on. there are historical cases we've been discussing. at this point the cases of Nash/ Grothendieck & various others seem related. a sad situation. but think he is surrounded by many who can take care of him...
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
3:19 AM
:(
At least he is much older than Nash was at his worst. This is not entirely surprising, I just worry about potential backlash. People can be cruel. I don't really know how to feel, I'm frustrated.
 
 
4 hours later…
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
7:45 AM
Anyone still up? Is the page still down?
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
8:08 AM
@vzn Are you watching?
I have it up. He's been talking about history for the last 25 minutes...
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
I can watch it, with quite a bit of delay.
omg he just said "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart". no.
OK so the most interesting content up till now is the generalization of Euler's formula to quaternions, developed by von Neumann and Hirzebruch
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@LeakyNun omg
Todd function now/
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
oh so the preprint is not fake!
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
That seems to be the case. Interesting, I wish I had studied it more before now. I had assumed it was fake from the comments.
@LeakyNun Too many leaps in logic, I don't understand how it all relates. He refers to proving the Riemann Hypothesis as "a bonus" to forming the Todd function. I'm afraid this may be a bust ladies and gentlemen.
How does the fine structure constant relate to the todd function?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
8:25 AM
how do I know
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
:(
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
this concludes the livestream
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
Um...so that was interesting. Any thoughts?
 
SolveIt
SolveIt
Huh...
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
so it's all based on the mysterious T function
2
 
 
3 hours later…
Abcd
Abcd
11:54 AM
@CaptainAmerica16 I think you should transfer this room to the maths site.
 
 
2 hours later…
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
1:52 PM
@Abcd Ay, sorry I fell asleep after staying up all night to endure the disappointment that was this proof. Do you mind telling me how to do that? I'm still quite new to these rooms.
 
Abcd
Abcd
2:20 PM
@CaptainAmerica16 Not sure how to do that. I think its possible but I have forgotten the method.
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@Abcd I guess I'll have to do some searching around for instructions then.
 
 
4 hours later…
vzn
vzn
5:58 PM
@CaptainAmerica16 missed it live but am now looking around for reactions/ reviews
@LeakyNun what did he say about Mozart?
 
enumaris
enumaris
Consensus seems to be: it doesn't pass muster
 
vzn
vzn
@Abcd so far the peer review/ analysis in this room is a "bust" also :P
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
Basically, trying to derive the fine structure constant is vixra level, not arxiv
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@vzn I forgot, you can always listen to the lecture to find out
I remember it's something about being a genius
 
enumaris
enumaris
deriving the fine structure purely mathematically seems like a fool's errand
 
vzn
vzn
6:00 PM
@enumaris fine but am going to try to hunt down written reactions etc
 
enumaris
enumaris
someone on reddit used his equation to write some python code to calculate the fine structure constant and came up with a wildly different number
 
vzn
vzn
@enumaris yep we discussed this somewhat at length last nite in Physics, agreed its a crank red flag, alas...
@enumaris presumably the eqn doesnt make any sense to begin with...? no need to go to a lot of trouble to code it up. GIGO
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
His claims about it appearing everywhere are because one does a perturbation expansion to solve QED problems and it's just part of the coupling constant QED, people go nuts over this for some reason the way people go nuts about Cantor's set theory
 
enumaris
enumaris
I mean... the fine structure of hydrogen from a physics perspective should definitely depend on things like the elementary charge and hbar...
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun wonder if he said anything about von neumann entropy as speculated by some... was interested in that angle...
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:02 PM
@vzn I don't think so
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
Since electrodynamics in QFT is a subset of the electroweak theory of the standard model, and one can re-express the fine structure constant in terms of other coupling constants in the standard model motls.blogspot.com/2014/10/… it's basically numerology to act like the fine structure constant is some religious concept based on an incomplete understanding of the standard model etc
Maybe it would be like saying trapezoids are the key to nature because integration used trapezoids in the early days to set up integrals despite the fact it doesn't matter what functions you use to set up integrals e.g. step functions etc, though I can't find a good analogy
 
vzn
vzn
was asking someone on reddit who claims to spot key error(s) in the preprints and it led to a substantial thread here. reddit.com/r/math/comments/9icamx/… but yeah, it sounds somewhat like "trying to construct objects, but the defns despite formal language/ eqns are foggy or apparently inconsistent"... have seen other cases of this in the past. ie there is a sort of "highly educated crank" style so to speak...!
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
> Using basic stuff like "a function that is analytic on every compact set is analytic" as a disproof of the ideas in the paper is pure arrogance.
this sentence is nonsense
@vzn indeed
 
enumaris
enumaris
oof...so he's contradicting basic complex analysis?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
yes
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
6:10 PM
@enumaris I knew it! I was just discussing this!
 
enumaris
enumaris
:(
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
feel free to ask me about the math side of the story
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
This was claimed to be the error, but now maybe has issues:
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun why is it nonsense
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
@LeakyNun is that last explanation legit?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:10 PM
what last explanation?
@vzn attacking an idea in the paper is not arrogance.
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun they are discussing the rebuttal. am asking about the technical details. am not really interested in the emotional drama. this reminds me of a recent mochizuki response about melodrama...
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@vzn ok
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun do you understand some/ any of the math being discussed?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@bolbteppa unfortunately, that function $e^z(2-e^z)$, like any other non-constant entire function, misses at most one point
 
enumaris
enumaris
6:13 PM
So is it so "crackpot" that there is nothing of value to be gleaned from the papers?
 
vzn
vzn
@enumaris he at least seems to cite relevant material...
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@vzn Mochizuki lol
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@vzn all of them
@bolbteppa but I can foresee one of the rebuttals to be based on the next sentence in the paper that they did not quote
the next sentence says that this is a linear approximation
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun (lol) ok, so it might be interesting to look at some examples that suggest he has no idea what hes talking about so to speak.
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
I've gone through the reddit posts
@enumaris all depend on the mysterious function Todd that is defined in the fine structure paper
 
vzn
vzn
6:17 PM
reddit is so funky, it doesnt even seem to show whether a user is a mod on the profile hover over...?
 
enumaris
enumaris
hmmm
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
but we don't need that other paper to know that T can't have the properties Atiyah claims it to have
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun so any idea why is it called a Todd function?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
I've not gone through the actual claimed definition in 3.4 of the fine structure paper, but I've heard that it's bogus
@vzn Atiyah says it's based on his teacher Todd
if my memory serves me right
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun apparently some other mathematician? is that his last name? my corp firewall is blocking reading the preprint on google drive right now but maybe will poke at it later...
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:20 PM
J. A. Todd
John Arthur Todd FRS (23 August 1908 – 22 December 1994) was a British geometer. == Biography == He was born in Liverpool, and went up to Trinity College, Cambridge in 1925. He did research under H.F. Baker, and in 1931 took a position at the University of Manchester. He became a lecturer at Cambridge in 1937. He remained at Cambridge for the rest of his working life. == Work == The Todd class in the theory of the higher-dimensional Riemann–Roch theorem is an example of a characteristic class (or, more accurately, a reciprocal of one) that was discovered by Todd in work published in 1937. It used...
might not be his teacher
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun does A cite anything for the Todd function?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
his other paper, of course
 
vzn
vzn
ok, am interested in looking at how As ideas relate to "solid" published literature. eg apparently Todd worked on Riemann related areas...
 
enumaris
enumaris
so is the Todd function a constant function = 1 over C?
my complex analysis is not up to muster
that stuff just never really clicked for me
 
vzn
vzn
afaik Riemann related stuff is rarely or almost never refd in any undergrad courses... but maybe would like to look into undergrad complex analysis...
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:25 PM
@enumaris that's what the properties lead to
and then one can immediately derive a contradiction since A claims that T maps the critical line to the critical line
I don't know why nobody pointed that out
 
enumaris
enumaris
I see
 
vzn
vzn
@LeakyNun did your advisor have a reaction/ response? are you an undergrad or grad? are you in US or ...?
 
enumaris
enumaris
My math friend once told me the RH was expected to be the most difficult of the Millenium problems. Is that generally the case with mathematician's expectations?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@vzn undergrad
 
vzn
vzn
@enumaris its the oldest on the list & by that (natural) measure presumably the hardest. open ~1½ century.
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:27 PM
@enumaris I don't know
 
enumaris
enumaris
hmmm
 
vzn
vzn
number theory problems are probably some of the hardest, if not the hardest in math, with math problems the hardest in science. there are 2 that are still unsolved proposed by the greeks: twin primes & odd perfect numbers existence. on other hand P vs NP is relatively "young" at only ½century old and may be a very difficult problem from a "new science" ie computation/ algorithmics/ complexity theory.
@LeakyNun have you studied RH some? there is nothing on it in undergrad classes right?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
a bit; I don't know
it would show up on analytic number theory, but I don't know if that's offered in undergrad
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@Leaky Nun Are you a math major?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
yes
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
6:33 PM
@Leaky Nun Nice! I want to major in math as well. Two more years.
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
good luck
 
vzn
vzn
in Mathematics, 4 hours ago, by manooooh
By the way here is the full talk: "The Riemann Hypthotesis" https://youtu.be/jXugkzFW5qY
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@CaptainAmerica16 consider pinning some of the messages
 
vzn
vzn
what is up with MM? think hes out of line
in Mathematics, 4 hours ago, by Mike Miller
Talk about this again and I will start flagging you for spam.
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@Leaky Nun How to do that?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:34 PM
click on the triangle that shows up when you hover over a message
 
vzn
vzn
acts like he owns the chat room
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@Leaky Nun Pinned your Wiki article. Now I'm on the prowl for more.
 
vzn
vzn
@CaptainAmerica16 so what brought you to RH? do you have some math bkg?
some older related chat rooms others in here might find interesting, hope to see you stick around

 MathOverflow

General discussion for mathoverflow.net
 
Anonymous
@CaptainAmerica16 You might change the room description as well on the top right. The live stream is already over ;)
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@Rithaniel hi
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
6:39 PM
@vzn Not as much background as I would like, unfortunately. I'm a High School junior, but I make a point of studying math every day. Trying to complete at least 1 proof on the undergrad level a week. Been going well so far. I learned about RH some time ago, I'm very interested in the effects a proof of it may have. I hope to study it one day at if I can reach a math PhD.
 
vzn
vzn
@CaptainAmerica16 cool welcome to the club :) think there are not many HSers or undergrads interested in RH, or even number-theory!
 
Rithaniel
Rithaniel
Greetings
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@CaptainAmerica16 that's nice
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@vzn Oh yeah, that's true. An era already gone. sigh
 
vzn
vzn
@CaptainAmerica16 "era gone"?
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
6:42 PM
@vzn lol I was talking about the crazy 5 hours that we anticipated the talk. I'll look back on this in like 3 years as one of the weirdest nights of my life.
 
vzn
vzn
@CaptainAmerica16 re "effect", RH is used conditionally in a lot of proofs, ie they describe "what would happen" in math if it were true.
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@CaptainAmerica16 I'd probably just forget this time
 
vzn
vzn
@CaptainAmerica16 lol yep cyberspace can be manic at times it relates to "virality" o_O :P
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@Rithaniel do you come with questions regarding the preprints?
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@vzn I know. Are there talks about what would happen if it was actually proved though? I talked to one of my teachers about this. A Bertrand Russell kind of deal, I prefer to be sure of things. I know that's not entirely possible though.
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:46 PM
@CaptainAmerica16 ^ this is one of the examples
this is more examples
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@vzn "virality" lol. Yeah there were people jumping that didn't even know what we were talking about. They just say some people in SE chat for like 4 hours XD
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
this is even more examples
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@Leaky Nun Thank you. I plan to learn a lot more about RH. These discussions have taught me some new things about complex analysis as well that I'd like to explore.
 
Rithaniel
Rithaniel
Currently, I'm somewhat sleepy. I do have questions regarding it, but it'd be difficult for me to succinctly formulate these questions
 
vzn
vzn
@CaptainAmerica16 am saying thats what all the conditional papers are about. "what would happen". are you asking about ramifications outside of mathematics research? what do you mean "a bertrand russell deal"? btw recently read his book on conquest of happiness... liked it
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:50 PM
@CaptainAmerica16 you're welcome to ask me anything. if it's about maths, maybe on the math chatroom.
I'm mainly impressed by your passion.
I've seen too many people without passion.
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@vzn When I say Bertrand Russell type deal, I mean the urge to prove that everything can be proven. RH seems true, by for some reason we can't know for sure.
 
vzn
vzn
The Riemann Hypothesis is a bonus™! lol o_O
all your base are belong to us!™
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@Leaky Nun I'll definitely take you up on that offer. It seems like I always have questions and I don't know anyone who really cares about math the way I do in real life. Creating a proof is like Christmas, isn't it?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
sure
 
enumaris
enumaris
question about RH: how many non-trivial zeros of RH do we actually know about?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
6:56 PM
@enumaris I believe we know that there are infinitely many of them on the critical line
 
enumaris
enumaris
I see
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@Leaky Nun Don't worry, I'm cringy sometimes.
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
@CaptainAmerica16 lol ok
 
enumaris
enumaris
has specific values on the critical line been proven to be 0's? Or does the proof that says there are infinitely many of them actually show how to find those?
(Inclusive or)
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
just use any zero-finding algorithm...
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
7:03 PM
@vzn Yes, I've heard that a proof of RH would have far-reaching effects in Cryptography. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though. I don't really know what would happen in math research though, since it seems like everyone just assumes it's true anyway.
 
bolbteppa
bolbteppa
'1914: Hardy showed that ζ(s) has infinitely many zeros on the critical line.
1942: Selberg showed that a positive proportion of zeros lie on the line.
1974: Levinson showed that at least one third of the zeros are on the line.
1989: Conrey showed that at least 40% of the zeros are on the line
But no-one has shown that ALL zeros are on the line.' https://maths.ucd.ie/~plynch/Talks/RH-IMS-2016.pdf
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
 
vzn
vzn
@CaptainAmerica16 ok there is a P time test for primes (AKS algorithm itself a breakthru years ago), but it is unwieldy and not used practically, & guess Riemann proof might lead to a faster algorithm as speculated by some (incl expert mathematicians). this is related to the RSA algorithm. (afaik) it would not break it.
oh, there are some implications of RH in complexity theory classes/ separations, found that yrs ago, was a bit amazed at the connection...
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@vzn Hm, interesting. Have you heard about the recent discovery of a pattern in primes related to patterns found in crystal-like materials?
@vzn Complexity theory? That's physics?
 
vzn
vzn
Atiyah's computation of the fine structure constant (pertinent to RH preprint)/ Reddit reddit.com/r/math/comments/9ig4ei/…
 
Rithaniel
Rithaniel
7:15 PM
I remember that "discovery."
 
vzn
vzn
@CaptainAmerica16 Theoretical Computer Science P vs NP etc
@CaptainAmerica16 cant you post that? didnt hear. there was a very neat recent Physics oriented analysis let me dig it up
 
Rithaniel
Rithaniel
The places I read which reported on it seemed to be written by people who believed that we didn't think there was any pattern in the primes.
 
CaptainAmerica16
CaptainAmerica16
@vzn Ah, ok. I'm taking physics this year, so I just assume everything with with theory after it is physics. lol
@vzn Yes, give me a moment.
@vzn There you go
@vzn This too.
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
8:04 PM
@Rudi_Birnbaum see starboard for a link to the maths side of the nonsense
you can also ask me about it
as for the physics side, I think the consensus among the people here is that fine structure constant isn't just something you can derive using pure maths, as it is something you measure empirically
 
ngn
ngn
@LeakyNun so is pi :)
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
well I don't know much about the physics side
 
ngn
ngn
@LeakyNun me neither, but i know it's a dimensionless constant, unlike length, mass, velocity, etc
 
Rudi_Birnbaum
Rudi_Birnbaum
@LeakyNun I am not entirely sure about that dogma. When I rem correctly there are several physicists who think that a valid theory of everything should be able to explain the values of the constants. In a way that seems to make sense.
 
ngn
ngn
it's something in which all physical units cancel out
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
8:11 PM
I refrain from talking about the physics side of the story as I don't want to mislead anyone
 
ngn
ngn
@LeakyNun do you understand the maths of deriving "ж"?
 
Leaky Nun
Leaky Nun
I haven't really read that paper
but I've heard that someone checked one of his equations by python and it turned out to be way off
 
vzn
vzn
8:29 PM
@CaptainAmerica16 thx hadnt seen all that yeah we are talking about the same thing, havent looked at it closely yet, have been working on statistical approaches to number-theory for yrs now, great to see others getting into the action :)
in The h Bar, Sep 7 at 22:49, by vzn
The seemingly random digits known as prime numbers are not nearly as scattershot as previously thought. A new analysis by Princeton University researchers has uncovered patterns in primes that are similar to those found in the positions of atoms inside certain crystal-like materials / reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/9drofi/the_seemingly_random_digits_kno‌​wn_as_prime/
coincidentally recently did a survey of Riemann + Physics connections here, deep stuff vzn1.wordpress.com/2018/08/13/math-highlights-2018%C2%BE/#c
8
Q: Riemann Hypothesis and Complexity Theory

kalaIt is known that "Assuming the generalized Riemann hypothesis (GRH) if VP = VNP then PH collapses to second level". Why would one think of a relation between VP,VNP and the Riemann hypothesis. Where does a statement about the zeros of the Riemann zeta function appear in a statement about complexi...

algebraic-complexity
8
Q: Implications of Riemann Hypothesis variants in TCS

vznThe over ~1½ century old Riemann Hypothesis has deep implications in mathematics and a large edifice of math theory is now proved conditionally on it and numerous variants. I recently came across a reference to a conditional result in TCS based on the Riemann hypothesis. I am therefore wondering,...

cc.complexity-theory algebraic-complexity arithmetic-circuits
 

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