3dprinting.stackexchange.com/questions/7667/… needs more help troubleshooting

@T.M. in regards to 3dprinting.stackexchange.com/questions/7668/… - I like the e3D hotends. They come about 50 to 100 bucks in genuine (depends on voltage and heater cartridge).

I have an e3D light6 for my PLA only printer and still work on designing a mount for my e3D v6 for the Ender 3 that also holds the proximity probe, but they are pretty much the 'industry standard' by now.

I have had no issiues with either of them yet.

Thanks, tell me more, I'm looking up what you mean by e3d hotend now

e3D is a british(?) manufacturer, e3d-online.com/…

building a DIY printer isn't really an option given time constraints, I need closer to a prebuilt solution

you dont need DIY, you only need a hotend mount... which printer you got?

Makerbot 5th Generation

that is the full name? no replicator or something?

I'm sure it's replicator, I'll go look up the exact. 5th generation is only one thing though

Yes Makerbot Replicator 5th Generation

The Makerboth 5th generation is a pretty closed system, are you saying you can just replace the smart extruder with a new hotend and have it work fine?

The extruder and the hotend are different system parts: the extruder is the part that pushes the filament, the hotend? that's just a dumb component that heats the nozzle. That part can very easily be replaced.

ok good to know. In Makerbot's smart extruder that is all in one piece I think.

it is one double assembly... it is... I see a video on it atm, the tiny coolend part is a HUGE problem in my opinion youtube.com/watch?v=I4vamb5LMqs

I am so not a fan of that assembly... I would swap to a proper extruder (or two) with a bowden setup and then an e3D, but that is only my opinion.

you're sure that's something that can be done with the Makerbot 5th generation? It's so closed that I'm not sure anything other than a Makerbot extruder could be attached to it

if you know what you are doing, it can be done. but yes, the makerbot5 is a try to make it inaccessible to modding... which is a PITA.

On the other hand... if the hotend is under warrenty: demand fixing and send it in, and probably have a spare.

I can't say that I know what I'm doing to that level. Unfortunately not under warranty and they've had so many problems with the design that they aren't exactly helpful with customer service

I have often seen the opinion that the makerbot might be worth it, but the Prusa has a better way to access and service the machine.

I'm intrigued by your idea of replacing the smart extruder, but it mounts magnetically and talks to the makerbot control panel. Without a specific guide I wouldn't stand a chance I don't think

yea.... you would need to hack the whole system... and void all warrenty on it... It is an extensive mod. Like... you pretty much only reuse the movement system.

The easier way would be to try to fix up the hotend and save up for a total swap of machine.

@T.M. ok, Idea: how about you rewrite your question about the hotend/extruder combo to your specific extrusion problem, then we try to fix that?

Warranty is long over that's not a problem. The creality CR-10 and Ender machines are within budget so that's why I wanted info on those or other low end machines

If you go for creality, take the newer CR-10S, as you can upgrade it a little better (it has a somewhat better board)

in that regard: support.th3dstudio.com/support/solutions/articles/…

the ender3 is nice (I got one), but it is a little... tricky and limited in upgrades. 10S also is a little bigger.

Creality uses a bowden extruder, which means it does not print flexible filaments well. Prusa has direct drive (like makerbot) and has a somewhat larger fan/helperbase

honestly we aren't likely to need much in the way of upgrades but you never know. I teach at a middle school and we mostly need to be able to have successful prints of student models and making things for teachers such as math models, etc

The budget isn't there for a Prusa, but perhaps with some fundraising

@Trish What do you mean by fix up the hotend. I don't see how to do that without replacing the smart extruder entirely

@T.M. I mean, removing it, doing maintenance on the extruder (maybe there is filament stuck or something), then placing it back.

@T.M. well, in that case I actually would jsut get a couple spare extruders for the makerbot and do maintenance on the extruders when they mess up again.

Ah, ok, I've done that. Removed the jam and cleaned the nozzles

another thing that might be a problem is bad settings... I mean, if you have too much/little retraction or wrong temperatures.

the problem is the extruders are $190 each, for that much I can buy a whole new printer. Thus the original question :)

I know, I know...

the upside to it is though: pull out clogged, plug in a clean, print, maintenance while the print runs.

the downside: price

all other machines need to need maintenanced in shut down mode and do not allow.. well, pretty much "hotswapping" the hotend/extruder.

We've tried all kinds of things with the settings. Higher temperatures lower temperatures different resolution. Not sure what the issues are. I suppose I could post some more details with pictures of the problems in another question

which reminds me: How do you store your filaments? bubbles can be a sign of wet filament

I recently learned that. They've been stored in a drawer. Can they be dried out?

and yes, the bubbles warrent their own question

the shoe is the other way round: filament needs to be dry. Like dry-dry. If they are stored in humid air, they soak water, which cooks out in the hotend, creating bubbles.

you can refurbish the filament to some degree by baking it in the oven: PLA at some 50°C for an hour, ABS at about 80°C

it won't be as good as new, but useable again

that could well be the problem then. I'll try that then gather some details and post a new question if needed

I'll also go research a more proper way to store the filament. Sealed bag with some dessicants enough?

Also it's not bubbles exactly, but blobs of dark brown possbily burnt looking plastic

@T.M. better than nothing, drybox is better (IKEA box with dessicant at the floor)

@T.M. blobs and overcooked/brown plastic are a sign of the filament either being too hot or the extruder not pushing, sometimes even a clog.

@T.M. it also depends on what kind of filament you have. I assume PLA or PETG, as ABS is usually banned in school environments

PLA since that's all the Makerbot is made for

@T.M. gotcha

well, I suggest to try to fix up the filament and do maintenance on the hotend assemblies to remove any clogs, maybe swap the nozzles.

Amazing they don't tell you this kind of thing when you buy the filament. This is the first time I've heard of a drybox, but obviously with the spool in the machine open to the air it's going to absorb water

@T.M. well, it is something the community found out over time. I suggest 3 channels on Youtube: MakersMuse (Angus Daveson), Thomas Sanladerer and CNC Kitchen (Stefan), who all are great when it comes to theory and praxis of 3D printing. Another good one though not my favorite is 3D Printing Nerd (Joel)

thanks I'll check them out

Stefan has a great series on filament strengths/testing, Thomas has a good guide for a lot of the firmware and hardware stuff, Angus is a lot of design tricks for 3D printing. Joel is good for a lot of hacks and reviews.

I got my first printer based on Angus and Joel's review of the TronXY X1 XD

then put in an e3D light6 later

yeah, I don't think you'll be able to put a third-party extruder in the Makerbot

@DanHulme not without hacking it a lot.

@Trish I appreciate the help on the heater issue. I just posted the details on my thread. Thanks for suggesting I go on chat too, didn't even occur to me to try this.

@dugost chat often is quicker to get troubleshooting ideas through - I have used it to pretty much learn my first steps of firmware here XD

@dugost ok... let me grab my multimeter

@trish great, thanks.

My multimeter offers Ohm x10 and ohm x1k.

To measure in the 50 ohm reange, I need to turn it to x10, and then it moves (on my multimeter) the needle to the center for a 5 Ohm cartridge.

which setting did you choose? @dugost

Mine was set to x10. The manual said to set the 0 point to touch the prods together and adjust a dial on the side. When I did that the needle went to the left, the opposite end of the zero. No amount of dial adjusting would change that. I think it's broken, at least the resistance measuring part. It's old, got it from my grandfather.

that is correct actually...

The digital one says OL when I turn it on. There's no option to change x10 or x1K. There's no change in the readout regardless of which heater I connect the prods to. The audio cable test does show me it measures something, I just don't understand the values or why it varies.

Ohms on mine are GREEN. 0 is on the right, unlimited (OpenLead) is left.

I'll try to measure the leads again with the analog. 1 sec.

Mine is the same. Green on top. Needle rests on the left. Measuring an audio cable makes the needle go off the dial to the left. Measuring one of the heaters sees no change of the needle.

That's on the Rx10 setting.

ok... the needle moves LEFT on shorting the probes or going to the wire?

That is how the 0-test should be calibrated.

measuring a piece of wire should move it right

tried to dial either way?

your multimeter has a battery in, that might be empty

ok, let's look at the heater cartridge and use the digital one.

I didn't think this one used a battery so I never even thought to check for a dead one. Gimme a sec, I'll pop it open.

Ohms are measured by using a little, known current through the pins and then measuring voltage ;)

Sigh… the battery was in backwards. I watched a video on using multimeters and one guy said to get one that doesn't use a battery. Mine looked like his, old and analog so I figured mine didn't use one either. Reading the full manual should have been my first step! Now, to measure… 1 sec

heh, the better onse USE a battery XD

ok, so turned the battery right?

Yup, flipped around and closed back up. I calibrated to 0 and tested the audio cable on both sets of leads and got 0.1. When I try it on a heater there's no change. Needle doesn't budge from the left. I'll have to go grab the other 2 heaters.

I tested the other 2, the needle didn't budge for either.

ok... that is odd... can you make a photo of the cartridge and where the leads come out of it?

Yup, I'll post in a minute.

You might measure at the leads of the cartridge too, maybe it is the cables that are broken and the cartridges themselves are intact.

or there might be bad contact at the ends...

Ok, so I think this goes a long to way to explain the problem and that I'm a complete noob to electronics. I was putting the red prod on 1 lead and the black prod on a different lead. I'm supposed to be measuring the resistance by putting both of the prods on the same lead, right? When I do that the needle goes to 0. It does that for each lead.

Ehm.. let me grab my removed hotend...

I have a spare hotend luckily

That is what I have in hand: the hotend, the two shielded heater-cartridge wires.

use imgur and link to them in chat

you see the small gap? Use one prong on each of the cables that are in the gap if you can

Ok, it's a tight gap but I'll try.

I measure a 0.5 on my meter, which with the x10 factor is 5 Ohms

(can't make a photo with the prods in the gap)

Ok, thanks. 1 sec.

Man, that is a fussy spot to try and get a measurement. I'm trying it on one of my old heaters but I'll run over to my printer and try the current one. brb

it's ok. Just make sure not to touch the prods and don't measure on a running machine

I mean, touch prod to prod

Thanks but this is extremely frustrating. I can't seem to get the prods to stay against the leads from off the cartridge. The readings aren't consistent and go to 0 more often than anything else, because the prods are either touching or they're against the metal sheath over the heater.

1/3 - This is set to 0 using the prods: imgur.com/a/7BWAuCP

@dugost that's a good start

@dugost ok. blunt test: try to bend the open end around one test prod, then probe with the other - 0 means you have no trouble on the lead to the cartridge

if you get .5, you have the other lead and it is a cartridge that is OK

if you get nothing, you have a broken Lead or cartridge

imgur.com/a/yySh1fS That's testing both leads and nothing happening with the needle.

Ok, i'll try that.

you might need to swap the leads around to test the other line

I have no idea if this is effective or not but the only way I can get them to stay is to bend it and shove the prods into the sheathing. imgur.com/a/oztNpvy

that should be effective.

but it seems that this cartridge is... dead.

And that's the heater that originally came with the TT. I've gotten 2 new ones in the last couple of months and have had the same problem with each of them. How the hell can all 3 end up with the same problem so quickly?

That is a good question. But we solved why we got temperature runaway...

ok, you have a 12V heater cartridge... where did you buy your supply from?

And I'm worried if I bend the other 2 like this I'll break the connectors. Maybe feeding 2 loops of wire between the cartridge and the leads and prodding those will work.

@dugost that is a nice trick too.

@dugost let's focus on that a moment

12 Volt Ceramic Cartridge Heater from Spool3d.ca

what's the wattage?

@dugost it might be that you grabbed the wrong wattage... you have 40 Watt heater cartridges... and you might only support 30 Watts from the board...

Maybe that's it. I'll have to find the TT specs again to see what wattage was used but I was damn sure those were the correct heaters,.

hmmm, but Tevo sells 40W for their heater cartridges... ok... let's take a look at firmware, ok?

Do you have customized your marlin?

no, we need tje config files :P Start Arduino.ino and open your marlin,

Configuration.h, search for #define HEATER_0_MAXTEMP

Ok, I'll have to grab my laptop. brb

for the spare, I would actually spend the 4 bucks more to get something better than a china one.

my Maxtemp is set to 275. Which is what you'd set for a lined heatbreak.

I'm in Canada and shipping is killer. That was a Canadian retailer with decent pricing. But you're right, I'll have to get some quality parts. any recommendations?

@dugost your retailer has them: spool3d.ca/e3d-ceramic-cartridge-heater

mine is also set to 275

hmmm... might be shitty parts... Call your supplier and ask them if that is a known problem with the batch you got?

wait... one moment..

thanks, i'll order a couple of those.

what you do after a print? Does the hotend cooling fan continiue to run? that should prevent the machine from building up heat in the cartridge

It is safer for the cartridge to let the hotend cool down to room temperature before shutting the machine down

After a print I let it sit so it, the hot end and the bed cool down. I find it easier to remove it from the bed after it's cooled for a while. I don't think I've ever shut it off right after a print but it's possible. It's entirely possible that I've shut it off after running hot end tests as well.

But yes, the fan is always running as soon as the machine is turned on and after a print as finished.

@dugost that is good, also it's safe

@dugost hm, well, just make sure not to do it too often... but I really am puzzled how the board ate 3 hotends in 3 months... unless the quality of your cartridges was low or you were printing 24/7

as a hobbyist, I don't think more than one spare e3D cartridge needs to be on hand... and you won't need to spend 25 bucks for the high precision version

I've been so bad at trying to get this thing set up and calibrated that I've hardly done much printing at all. It's only been in the last 2 months I've gotten anything decent. Maybe a 5 hour print a week on average?

I won't suggest you to swap the whole hotend, but you might drop to someone that if they can get their hands on an e3D hotend before christmas, that would make a super nice present ;)

@dugost heh... I havn't printed anything in the last 3 months, now I just started up a 15 hour print...

@dugost If you only want to print PLA (no heated bed), then a light6 is enough, otherwise go v6

So to test the leads on a heater: black on 1 lead, red on the other, resistance should be .5 Ohms? Same thing connecting to the leads on the cartridge itself if I get 0 Ohms from the wire leads?

something lke 0.5 x10 ohms, yes

Ok, thanks. I can't seem to find the heater specs for the TT. Where do you see it listed as 40W for 12V?

@dugost lead end to the same lead's pin of the cartridge: 0 Ohms. To the other lead's pin: 0.5 x10 Ohms. To other lead's end: 0.5x10 Ohms

@dugost tevo3d.hu/en/spd/Tevo_Heater_cartridge/…

Fantastic. Thank you. I'll order a replacement. I think this issue has some down to cheap parts because as soon as I replace the heater the problem goes away… until it comes back. So the heaters are just getting fried in the heat because they're cheap?

@dugost it might be that... or your board fries them

Wonderful. :| So the 12 V might not be consistent for some reason and it fries them?

Well, I can only guess... you said it was delivering what voltage?

running persistantly over 12V might eat on the life of the heater cartridge... hmmm

I tried to heat the nozzle and had the multimeter on the terminals which measured 12.4 V until the thermal runaway error.

that are... 3% over the nominal, that should be ok...

@Greenonline what do you think about the isiue?

@Trish Thank you so much for your help and your patience on all of this. I know my patience was running pretty thin today so it was very helpful to have you guide me through those steps. I have to run but I'll check back in later. Thanks again!

@dugost no problem. I had time, and it is an annoying issiue.

@Trish Wow, looks like a long thread. Unfortunately, I don't have any time now, as it's 3:30, and I need to crash. I hope it gets fixed though. I might have some time tomorrow.

@Greenonline well, we dialed it down to "The heater is broken... 3 times in a row". The question is: do 12.4V burn through 12V 40W heater cartridges like crazy or might the board of the tarantula be broken?