@Ali Are you aware that isn't the whole verse? Anything out of context will prove whatever you want. (For instance, the Bible also says (Exodus 20:12): "You should Kill...You should Rape...You should Steal.") The whole quote in Genesis says: "Take thy son, thy only son which you love: Isaac." This is completely unambiguous and actually irrefutable. Your proof is a joke.

shavuah tob

@DhoweedYaAgov Shovua' Tov

@DoubleAA after this resume, would you like to learn shtickle rambam i have a problem with?

@DhoweedYaAgov Sure!

@DoubleAA back

Dhoweedyaagov, what community's customs do you follow? No self respecting teimoni would say shtickle. ;-p

im not teimoni

Ok. Do you not wish to identify? That's ok, I was just curious.

Sorry if that was awkward. (oops, ping @dhoweedyaagov)

you said i was teimoni and i said im not teimoni

i follow rambam

So you've stated. Very few communities follow Rambam exclusively. Teimonim are known to be among the few.

the key word is known

there are no teimonim communites now that follow rambam exclusively or even for majority of things.

most teimonim now are am ho'orosSim under leadership of non teimonim or teimonim who have taken the sepharadic or ashkenazic ideologies

there are rabbonim in israel who do go by rambam, but still not to the 100% because they are afraid of the rest of the klal to make fun of them and ridicule them

also the amount of people following rambam doesnt mean anything to me

rambam said if you live in a city which doesnt do right, move to another

if you cant find a proper city then move to the midbar

meaning it doesnt matter where you live/what community you belong to. you first need to do right

and if you are the only one doing right, break of and live isolated and/or make your own community

@DoubleAA thanks for pointing out this heinous error on my part , i apologize for that but why isaac was his only son?? gen 22:2 clearly shows Isaaac, people should indeed quote full verse , but verse 5 is strange in the sense it shows at least two young men?

Ismael was also present at that time?

And He said: 'Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' 3 And Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he cleaved the wood for the burnt-offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

He took ishmael and eliezer with him

On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said unto his young men: 'Abide ye here with the ass, and I and the lad will go yonder; and we will worship, and come back to you.' 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt-offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife; and they went both of them together.

ishmael and eliezer waited for them to come back

>Isaac his son

hii

Rambam says its impossible for a Muslim to be a pious Gentile, but it is even forbidden for a Gentile to follow the dictates of Islam [Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings 8:11].

is the above correct?

@IsaacMoses

wanted to verify?

@Ali I don't see it in Kings 8:11 mechon-mamre.org/i/e508.htm#11

It might exist elsewhere.

thanks

Either way, that's not why Muslims are a gentiles.

I had read some where that rambam had accused Muslims of rejecting Torah ?

i cant find it though it is in this site

@Ali He does IIRC. But that's not why they are gentiles.

IIRC?

I​​​​​​​​​​​​​​f I Remember Correctly. I sometimes do and sometimes don't.

SO please answer that question

@Ali msh210 basically already did. They are gentiles because the vast majority of them are not descended from Jews or converts to Judaism. If any individual Muslim proves he is descended matrilinialy from a Jew, then he would be a Jew. When we don't know otherwise, we follow majority.

It has nothing to do with what creed he does or does not accept.

I am not asking whether muslims are jews!

i am asking whether muslims are gentiles or NOT?

FROM TANACH

@Ali Muslims aren't mentioned in Tanach :)

from my study from this site i get the conclusion that muslims are not gentiles, they being jewish is subject to controversy

@Ali If a Muslim is not a Jew, then he is a gentile. There is no other option. Everyone is either Jew or gentile.

@Ali Where do you possibly see such a preposterous implication??

@DoubleAA neither are jews

@Ali Sure we are. We're the subject of the whole book! Maybe it uses a different word to refer to us, but that doesn't matter. It's the concept that matters.

dont you fear hereafter?

@Ali I fear God. That's it.

@DoubleAA exactly THE CONCEPT MATTERS and not NAMES

mUSLIM is not a name but a concept

@Ali Muslim is a word, actually. Everyone on this site uses it to refer to the certain set of beliefs practiced by about 1 billion people around the world (mostly in the eastern hemisphere) who follow the teachings of a man named Muhammed.

@Ali You can use it to refer to whatever you want, but it will just confuse everyone. Please refrain from using it in a non-normative manner.

and those 1 billion people consider muslim to be a concept , islam to be a concept not a "word"

@DoubleAA and those 1 billion people consider muslim to be a concept , islam to be a concept not a "word"

@Ali There's a great place for those 1 billion people to ask and answer SE questions according to their belief system: Islam

@Ali They use the word Islam to refer to a certain concept. Perhaps. Using it differently than the way everyone else around you is using it though is SILLY. You can't communicate effectively.

and many in this site have also understood that Islam is a concept

@Ali You use the word Islam to refer to a certain concept. Most people here use it to refer to a different concept. It is a word that references a concept, just like lots of other words.

words change as time changes , concepts dont change!

If you want to communicate with ANYONE you have to speak the same language. That's what language is.

@Ali Ok good. Why are you telling me this?

even different words can be used for same concept

@Ali And different concepts can be referred to by the same word.

@DoubleAA because you said you fear God

@Ali Indeed. Just like Jonah mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1701.htm#9