@Ali The truth is always more convenient than the alternative.
If anyone disagrees with my assessment, they will ping you and ask for more information. Otherwise, please assume everyone else on Mi Yodeya agrees with me.
@Ali This (both this chat and judaism.stackexchange) is a strange forum to debate the validity of Judaism. Is this how you expect to convince someone that Islam is true? By coming into their house and fighting with them? Find another forum for that. Use this as a way to gain knowledge, not to create strawman arguments.
If you're coming to a Jewish site, expect to be answered from a (or many) Jewish perspective(s). You need to have an open mind to what a Jewish perspective might be. It is not based solely on the text of the Tanakh. It includes centuries of debate and commentary and thought. Otherwise we'd have little idea how to live in a modern world - whether we can eat turkey, whether we can use electricity, etc.
@CharlesKoppelman @CharlesKoppelman you are wrong in that .It may seem to some as if i am fighting , No , I am using this forum to get knowledge and asking questions which perplex me. Interestingly i found the same questions to perplex even the Jews
@Ali Yes, the Bible is challenging. We have millennia of tradition that help us elucidate it. And they conflict and debate and it's still not clear, but it helps. If you want a Jewish perspective, you should probably accept Jewish traditions in understanding these things.
If you have honest questions, that's cool. But the "Isn't this other prophet Mohammed?" sort of questions are becoming annoying.
@CharlesKoppelman i AGREE to this but am i wrong to prefer an older jewish perspective compared to most recent ones? and thats just a nonsignificant preference. And my questions never contained references to "Muhammad" pbuh . Its your mind which proved to you what was obvious
to you
bye for now may Allah swt guide us to the truth Ameen
@Ali just to echo @DoubleAA that site is offensive and filled with poisonous lies. I have no real problem with you practicing your religion - despite its erroneous ideas and anti-G-d claims, it is at least not idolatrous like some other popular religions. However, my (and, I suspect, most other participants on this site's) tolerance ends when you try to push your beliefs on others here. It is inappropriate, annoying, and a waste of your time and ours.
@AlUmmatمجاهد since Judaism teaches that G-d created a perfect Torah, from a Jewish perspective suggesting that G-d was somehow not able to reveal the perfect system until later in history seems to me to be limiting G-d.
G-d is beyond time, and the Torah precedes creation. G-d's words are never in need of revision or repair.
@AlUmmatمجاهد furthermore, on a more esoteric level, one who opposes the rabbis, who extend in an unbroken chain of transmission from Moshe Rabbenu, opposes G-d as well.
@yoel it is not the problem with the torah, at least the original one in it's original language, and it's proper understand, and interpretation, it is an article of faith for us to believe in the Tourat
@yoel but it is as if judaism is making the rabbi's God
this is similar to what the shias claim about their Imams
@AlUmmatمجاهد Not at all. Rather, the Torah is not in Heaven, and authority is given to those rabbis who are in a legitimate chain of transmission from Moshe
When two rabbis have two completely contradictory opinions, although we only follow one of those, nonetheless of the two opinions it is said "his words and his words are the words of the living G-d". The rabbis rarely innovate - they transmit what was received as an oral teaching at Sinai. If two opinions seem to us to contradict, it is only because we can't see how they complement one another as we are limited
the Holy One Blessed is He is infinitely above our limited scope of understanding, and so it is that two things that appear to us to contradict can be true.
Therefore, one who opposes the rabbis opposes G-d, because either the rabbis are innovating as they are commanded to do by the Torah, or they are only repeating what was taught by G-d at Sinai.
@yoel God also gave each one of us a brain to think, if two Rabbis preach two contradicting opinions, don't you check it with the Torah? and if they make permissible what is impermissible in the Torah would you follow?
@AlUmmatمجاهد generally, our sages rule definitively on which opinion is to be followed.
No rabbi has ever made permissible what is impermissible, nor could they.
@AlUmmatمجاهد By the way, I don't know much about the different sects within Islam, but from what I do know, I think the sect that has the most in common with Judaism is the Sufis.
@AlUmmatمجاهد I don't know a lot about them, and also my view of Judaism is colored by my connection to Chasidus, but an important medieval rabbinic work (Chovos Halevavos) apparently has a lot in common with their teachings.
@AlUmmatمجاهد Sure, but this is objectively just a semantic argument.
You could also say there are no divisions in Torah, just amongst Jews
but practically speaking, the approach of a Chasid is different from the approach of a Litvak, and from a Sefardi, and from an MO Jew, and from a Yekke, and from a Temani....
even though it's all under the umbrella of Torah
It's also a convenient shorthand way to identify a person's approach
even though my approach might be very different from another Chasid, it's easy to tell certain things from that about how I serve G-d.
I imagine it's lehavdil similar for different Muslim sects.
@yoel so these kinds of Jews that fall under the umbrella of the Tourat, how many are they? I recall you said yesterday that the Torah has 70 understandings to it, so may I assume that there are 70 different Jews, or is this not the case?
@AlUmmatمجاهد It's a great question - I think it's been asked before, actually, and the consensus was that it's a very difficult question to answer, because how fine a gradation do you want?
I'm a Jew.
I'm an Ashkenazi Jew (ie, European)
I'm a Chasidic Jew (the European group that, very broadly, emphasizes serving G-d with joy)
Don't worry, I'm being a little tongue in cheek here.
I'm a Breslever Chasid - part of a specific Chasidic group following the teachings of Rebbe Nachman of Breslev
In Breslev, there are several different factions who look to certain contemporary leaders for immediate guidance. I would hesitate to put myself firmly in to one group but some could do so more easily
So already, within Breslev there are probably something like five or six groups.
Breslev is one of about a hundred extant Chasidic groups.
Chasidim are one of at least three if not more divisions within Ashkenazi Jewry
Ashkenazim are one of maybe three to five major groups within Jewry, with many more small groups.
But every observant Jew follows the same laws, prays the same prayers, and so on.
@AlUmmatمجاهد It's a hard question to answer unless something more specific is asked.
I see, the question that really I want to ask is, is there such thing as sectarian fight among Jews? one saying what they follow is correct,, and all the others saying the same
also, these 70 different understandings in the Torah, how different are they? I mean if they have a lot of differences between them, then each one would be like a different system (I assume, may not be the case)
@AlUmmatمجاهد For just a hint of understanding, take a look at the Talmud. There are thousands of opinions recorded in the Talmud. Two versions of the Talmud, each comprised of dozens of volumes of commentary on the Mishnah, and each passage of the Talmud is scrutinized so thoroughly that....
@AlUmmatمجاهد Good question, and I'll answer you after my meeting I'm going in to now, but the short answer is "yes, and eventually either everybody reconciles and gets along, or one of them is ultimately defined as not authentic Judaism"
@AlUmmatمجاهد (cont.) there are a handful of commentaries printed in the margins of the Talmud on each page, plus more than that published in appendices in the back of most editions of the Talmud, and many dozens of commentaries written in lengthy book form of their own....
@AlUmmatمجاهد (cont.) and then THOSE commentaries are further expounded upon by later commentaries, some of which earned supercommentaries (meaning commentaries of others upon their work). This trend continues to this day.
@AlUmmatمجاهد If there were only one face to the Torah, this would all be superfluous.
(end)
@AlUmmatمجاهد Yes, this has happened historically and even today. But for different reasons.
@AlUmmatمجاهد One could say that christianity was one such banned sect. Or you could say that it arose from such a sectarian fight. Either way, mainstream christianity no longer seeks to identify itself as a branch of Judaism. They mostly believe, like Muslims do, that they have replaced us as G-d's chosen people and/or that their "testament" replaced our covenant with G-d (similar to what Ali seems to be driving towards with most of his quesitons, but I digress).
@AlUmmatمجاهد No, my point is the opposite. That the expression means that there are 70 legitimate ways to interpret the Torah (70 is a number often used in Talmudic terms to convey "a lot but not an infinite number". For example, there are reportedly "70 nations", "70 languages", etc.). ...
@AlUmmatمجاهد Once a group has gone far outside what's recognized as a legitimate interpretation, though, that's where things get dicey. Sometimes groups will be banned as inauthentic or illegitimate for a while, but issues will get worked out or later generations will accept them.
@AlUmmatمجاهد Hassidism was very controversial in its day (and in some circles it still is), and rifts among Hassidim have also developed.
@SethJ but what is considered a legitimate interpretation? and who's interpretation is it? and if each of these Jewish groups think their interpretation is correct, than how can one be sure that their interpretation is correct?
@AlUmmatمجاهد That's a great question and way too broad for me to answer here. Someone else may be capable, but I don't consider myself qualified, nor do I think I can summarize in short, either. I'm sorry.
@AlUmmatمجاهد There may be a question here about that, though. I'll look around and see if I can dig one up.
@AlUmmatمجاهد Ah, I was just reminded that there is a concept of "Yotzei Min HaTzibur", which means "Leaving the (main) Community". It's basically the limit of "70 faces".
We hear a lot about the value of diversity these days, especially in academic settings. What about in hashkafa? Does "shivim panim l'Torah" teach that diversity is to be valued, and to what degree? How do you balance it with "yotzei min ha'tzibbur"?
@yoel ok I see, but why are there such a thing as Torah scholars if there are rabbis? or are the rabbis the Torah scholars? or atleast genuine Torah scholars?
"rabbi" is kinda a nebulous term, anyway, because even many hugely important Halachic decisors who make decisions on modern issues affecting generations to come are not rabbis in the very technical sense of having had that title confirmed upon them by other rabbis
I think that they would all agree that the other rabbis are authorized to rule for their communities, even if they disagree about a ruling.
I think a Sefardi rabbi would usually agree that Ashkenazim should follow their Ashkenazi rabbi, but he wouldn't think that Sefardim should follow the Ashkenazi rabbi. In general people should follow the traditions of their fathers.
Differences are only in custom (minhag), never in actual matters of law.
So if you look at my prayer book and compare it to my Persian friend's prayer book, there are differences, but they are pretty subtle in most places
and in all the legally obligatory parts of the service (as opposed to the parts that a person can technically skip but is praiseworthy for saying) the language is virtually identical
@AlUmmatمجاهد I'm sure you didn't mean it to be, but that is very offensive. Obviously the fault is mine since I was unclear, and I will try to clarify:
An example: When we put on our tefilin, some people put it on during the "intermediary days" of our holidays and some do not. A person who isn't sure what to do should do what their father did.
@AlUmmatمجاهد Don't worry about it.
If their father was not religious (which would explain why the person doesn't know what to do), they should do what their father's father did.
This is a common question in our day, because thank G-d many Jews who were not raised observant are coming back to the Torah.
@AlUmmatمجاهد did I answer your question? My main point to get across is that while two Jews might do things differently, the core of the observance is identical.
@yoel yes You have answered my questions, and if I understand your answer correctly, you are saying that there is difference on the outside, but the purpose/intention is one on the inside
I think one could give a clear definition of "talmid chacham", "chacham", "rav", and "posek" but such a definition would not be useful in a practical sense and would need copious footnotes and exception handling.
@yoel I think that is what he meant when he said " Also, historically, some non-rabbis have been Poskim and some non-Poskim are rabbis." what did he actually mean?
@AlUmmatمجاهد a posek is one who decides "questions", whether big ones like "can you use electricity on the Sabbath" or localized ones like "is this chicken slaughtered correctly". A rabbi is one who received semicha - "ordination" - from other rabbis as a form of recognition of their amount of study and understanding. Usually a posek is a rabbi, but not always. Usually, a rabbi is a posek, but not always.
the most interesting one I find is "not extinguishing fire" even though it says if it is life threatening, so are creative acts that aren't listed in the wikipedia article, like fishing, prohibited?
@AlUmmatمجاهد it says that if the fire is life threatening one is obligated to extinguish it. Fishing would be prohibited for a number of reasons, the most obvious one being that the fish would die and it is prohibited to kill any living thing on Shabbos.
The big exception is always if a life is in danger.
With three exceptions and one qualifier, any Jewish law should be broken if it will save a life.
@AlUmmatمجاهد But back to this point about a Posek vs. a Rabbi, I was only mentioning as an aside to @yoel that the two are not necessarily the same thing. A non-ordained person who is greatly esteemed in his knowledge of Jewish law can be (and has historically been) given a position by a community as a Posek, meaning that he decides matters of religious law. But regarding my comment to you, I meant that, although not every Jew is a scholar, we have scholars we can consult, be they rabbis or not.
@yoel just that if something very useful and expensive get's burned, it would be a waste of money
@SethJ I understand better now :)
@yoel In the Quran there is a story of some Jews who did what was forbidden on the Shabbath, so they were turned into pigs and apes, and they became a warning to the righteous of their time and those after to not break what was commanded. Do you have this story in the Torah?
@yoel If someone owned a house on an island, and it was struck by lightning in a freak storm, and only the owner was nearby (meaning that nobody was in or near enough to the house to be endangered), I'm pretty sure a rabbi would say he has to let it burn.
@AlUmmatمجاهد No, we don't have stories about people turning into pigs and apes.
As David Perlman stated in his answer, Biblical Noah was not Jewish. Depending on how you define Judaism, the first "Jew", or rather, the first person to recognize the G-d that Jews worship as the Creator and Master of the universe, was Abraham.
If you are interested in nationality, it goes some...
@yoel @SethJ I didn't say all Jews, nor does Islam say that, I know that among Jews there is a misconception that Islam says that Jews are the descendants of pigs and apes, and I know some muslims so such, but that is wrong and not part of Islam.
@AlUmmatمجاهد the story doesn't really fit with Jewish tradition, though. Generally speaking, we have a very clear list of what the punishments are, both civilly enforced and divinely enforced, for breaking our laws.
Muslims in different societies use the term "descendants of apes and pigs" for Jews because of the following verses in the Quran:
(162) Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold!
they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of
their Sabbath their fis...
I was just saying because way back, I read this answer
I can offer one possible reconciliation: we believe in the reincarnation of souls, so in theory - I am definitely not arguing for the veracity of this story - one might say that it was possible that a person would be reincarnated as an ape or a pig chas veshalom. It would be hard to say in any case that it was specifically due to their violation of Shabbos laws.
I haven't managed to get through this whole chat, but I was wondering about @Ali's previous remarks that Islam does not reject Torah. Does Islam not say that the version of Torah currently possessed by Jews is corrupt?
@AlUmmatمجاهد I'd like to hear your answer too, if possible.
@HodofHod I do not know where in the Quran or the Sunnah it tells us that the Torah or the injeel is corrupted, actually the Quran says it confirms them, I am also very sure the torah in hebrew is totally different from the one in english
@SethJ well first of all I must remind you of the language, what language was the Torah when Musa received it? second of all, we believe that people wrote and said what they wrote was from God, which wasn't the case, but they only wrote to gain money. And if you look at the new revised version of the Bible (not sure if that is what it is called, maybe it is called New standard version) they gained a lot of money
@SethJ @HodofHod also we believe that some have corrupted the torah by their tongues, meaning in their explanations of it
@AlUmmatمجاهد Well, we don't use the King James version or any other version produced by Christians. As to your question about language, we believe it was given in Hebrew, the Holy Language.
@HodofHod the text that most people have today is inaccurate, I cannot say for the hebrew version. like I said above people have written stuff and said it was from God, what I can say is there are portions in the Torah which are not corrupted and are in sync with the Islamic teachings.
@HodofHod no, in the Time of Muhammad the Jews would read the Bible in Hebrew and explain it in Arabic, they would also hide somethings and reveal others, so Muhammad told us to not believe or disbelieve them, but to say to them "We believe in Allah/God and what is revealed to us."
@HodofHod I mean that if you say that the written Torah is correct but the oral Torah isn't, this is a rejection of Torah.
@AlUmmatمجاهد From a Jewish perspective, this is rejecting Torah. We hold as an article of faith that the Torah we now possess is identical to the one given to us at Sinai.
@HodofHod for example once the Jews came to Muhammad concerning a person who committed adultery (not sure of the authenticity of this story, but it is a Good example) so Muhammad asked what the Torah says to do, and the Torah says to stone those who commit adultery, but the Jews then denied and said it said nothing, but someone came and showed where in the Torah it says to stone those who commit adultery
@yoel for example the english version, when it talks about Prophet yusouf what does it say, it says Joseph, westerners have mutilated the names that were in the original language, this is one example
@yoel ah ok, well, have you read it in hebrew (i haven't)? if so than you can find that in some areas it has perfect song like hebrew, but in others it is broken up and ugly
@AlUmmatمجاهد I read through the Torah in Hebrew in its entirety on a yearly basis, as does almost every other observant Jew. I know of no place where it is ugly. It is true that its style varies, but it is a consistent whole nonetheless.
To be honest, since you haven't read it, it's hard for me to understand how you can claim that.
@yoel it has been pointed out to me that some parts sound song like, then after that it changes, like a whole new dialect, but if this is not the case I apologize, I am still learning, and I am more familiar with discussing with christians than Jews, it's learning experience
@yoel also, if I am not mistaken, wasn't the Torah transmitted Orally before being written down?
@AlUmmatمجاهد the style of the Torah depends on the context - after all, it covers about 2000 years of history. There are atheists and heretics who argue that it was compiled from many different sources over time, but this is not the Jewish view.
@AlUmmatمجاهد No - the written Torah was always written. There is also an oral Torah that was eventually written down.
@AlUmmatمجاهد You don't have to apologize, there's not really any reason for you to have known any of this before. You should be aware that there are very few things that xians say that conforms to a Jewish view.
The written Torah says "slaughter your animals as I have commanded you"
but there is nowhere in the written Torah where it says how to do this.
The method of slaughter was transmitted orally.
Likewise, the Torah commands us to wear tefilin - it says "bind these words on your hands and between your eyes" but gives no practical information on what that means.
@yoel I see, if I understand you correctly it is similar to the Hadith, but the Hadith were also written down in the time of Muhammad Himself. So the oral Torah is from God or the sayings of Musa explaining what to do?
The method of making tefilin was transmitted orally, and tefilin dating back about 2500 years have been found to be identical to today's.
@AlUmmatمجاهد I would hesitantly compare it lehavdil to the hadith, except to emphasize that I understand that some Muslims reject the authority of the hadith, whereas no legitimate stream of Judaism rejects the oral Torah.
@yoel I see. Actually the Hadith can be checked for authenticity and hence the authentic Ahadeeth must be accepted, because the Ahadeeth are the container of the Sunnah, hence those who reject the authentic Ahadeeth reject the sunnah that we get from them, and that would be disobeying God himself who ordered us to follow the prophet. Hope I didn't confuse you ;)
@AlUmmatمجاهد Not at all, it actually sounds a lot like our basis for following the rabbis. The Torah commands us to follow them, so a person might just say "I listen to G-d, not the rabbis" but by not following the rabbis they are not following G-d.
@AlUmmatمجاهد To be honest, it's hard too - maybe a Muslim can appreciate this: For an observant Jew the Torah is literally our whole life. Every single thing we do is based on the Torah and done in relation to the Torah. After a while it gets easy to forget that something we know automatically as a reflex and take for granted (so to speak) is not immediately obvious to somebody who doesn't live a Torah-based life.
We hear a lot about the value of diversity these days, especially in academic settings. What about in hashkafa? Does "shivim panim l'Torah" teach that diversity is to be valued, and to what degree? How do you balance it with "yotzei min ha'tzibbur"?
Muslims in different societies use the term "descendants of apes and pigs" for Jews because of the following verses in the Quran:
(162) Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold!
they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of
their Sabbath their fis...
