« first day (2 days earlier)      last day (2252 days later) » 

kristan
kristan
2:28 AM
toki toki!
are resource requests on-topic?
like "are there any resources in English to learn Solresol?" kinda questions?
 
Doorknob
Doorknob
there are precedents on other sites, and it sounds like something that would be useful
especially since a lot of the time it's difficult to find resources for actually learning conlangs
 
kristan
kristan
That one is a community wiki; dunno if that makes a difference
I've seen questions like that on Language Learning though, and they seem to be fairly well-received... like this one I answered over a year ago: languagelearning.stackexchange.com/questions/966/…
 
humn
humn
2:44 AM
Sure wish i knew why there are 2 close votes here. Comment! I edit to others' wishes. — lauir 2 mins ago
 
kristan
kristan
and now looking at it I see that my rep on that site came to be 666 while I wasn't looking O_o
somebody upvote or downvote something, quick... :-P
 
humn
humn
(Tried but got stiffarmed. You are marked forever.)
 
kristan
kristan
ike a!!!
um, I mean...
blast it all!
or something
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
@Adarain The indicator is broken, and always has been
 
kristan
kristan
I guess if I want an answer about resource requests I should make a meta post, either that or post my resource request and see if I get downvoted into oblivion :-P
the answer to the latter is probably "no" anyway...
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
2:54 AM
@kristan I think the main risk is broadness. The more targetted you can make it the better
 
kristan
kristan
Yeah, a really broad question like "what are good conlanging resources" could be a problem :-P
 
humn
humn
Two opinions on that: 1) It can work on meta. 2) It belongs on main.
To me "too broad" should mean "too vague." A catalogue of specific information is not vague, even if it is broad-ranging.
 
kristan
kristan
maybe not the most eloquent meta post, but here we go:
0
Q: Should resource requests be on-topic?

kristanI am wondering if resource request questions should be on topic, especially when resources are hard to find. For example, I've been wondering if there are any resources in English to learn Solresol, as so far I haven't succeeded in finding anything but dead links. Should questions like that be ac...

discussion scope
(thank you to whoever rescued me from the Mark of the Beast :-D)
 
humn
humn
(Someone else will fill the role willingly.)
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
@humn I didnt vote to close but the "ideas for langauges" part of the question could make answers mostly opinion based (especially since I did a bit of research and couldn't find any existing or even fictional "truth languages")
 
humn
humn
3:04 AM
Hmhm, that part is now out. Thank you.
I actually did not expect to find examples of such languages.
Mathematics, for instance, comes close, but that doesn't count.
(and, yes, "humn" here = "lauir" on-site)
But wouldn't it be something to have a language that cannot lie?!?
Actually, straying afield, we do have languages like that in real life. They just cannot be written.
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
"But it is wrong, all wrong. The idea that thought is the same thing as language is an example of what can be called a conventional absurdity: a statement that goes against all common sense but that everyone believes because they dimly recall having heard it some- where and because it is so pregnant with implications." - Pinker, The Language Instinct
 
humn
humn
Nice quote!
Most of what we say are dim echoes of what we barely heard.
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
never the other way around
 
humn
humn
Yet the reflection shows more than the message. (. . . perhaps i should be exiled to Philosophy.SE)
^ That's not purely philosophical. I was once a trained signal scientist.
Working with signals in the general sense brought me an appreciation of languages in the wild.
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
3:26 AM
@humn Are you familiar with Turkish?
2
 
humn
humn
Often, when we say anything, we try to bare our souls while borrowing others' words.
@as4s4hetic , Not yet. You? I've led a widely sheltered life.
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
It's just that regarding your truth question, some languages (such as Turkish) have a gossip mood for talking about things that haven't been proven to be real
 
humn
humn
Interesting!
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
This in no way prevents people from lying, but could be useful for preventing misunderstandings
 
humn
humn
I am familiar with a form of New Jersey (USA) speak, where everyone understands that it's bullshit.
2
It does prevent misunderstandings.
It's like music to the initiated!
Scares the uninitiated.
I don't speak it fluently, but when i hear it i know how to show recognizance. I should visit Turkey.
That would be another interesting new language, where nothing is taken literally.
Come to think of it, Victorian English novels covered a lot of that ground.
. . .
. . . so now my question has 2 close votes and 2 down votes. I was trying to help.
. . . at this stage of an SE site, salting tail feathers does not help.
. . . (all without constructive comment. whine) . . .
. . . bah, I'm going to feed and water some littered kittens . . .
 
 
2 hours later…
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
6:03 AM
@as4s4hetic Evidentiality, not modality. (Though they are related.)
 
kristan
kristan
6:55 AM
and speaking of the Mark of the Beast (sort of... 4 hrs ago...), that reminds me of the time I translated the DeGarmo and Key song "Six, Six, Six" into Klingon. A very interesting exercise; I wonder if I can find it now... not that my translation was particularly singable, lol!
 
 
3 hours later…
Adarain
Adarain
9:50 AM
@curiousdannii I believe you misunderstood me at some point. Diachronics is a synonym for language change
basically, diachronics is just the opposite of synchronics
a synchronic description of a language looks at how it is at that point
and a diachronic one takes into account its history
how do I edit a tag wiki? I only see “edit pending” and then can’t do anything with it
I just land here i.imgur.com/sDP4ZTC.png
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
10:08 AM
@Adarain Sure, I know that from normal linguistic terminology. But in conlang jargon, does it refer to simulated language change?
For the purpose of this site, it seems to me that it would be valuable to have two tags for simulated language change, and for descriptive real language change
According to this site, the term is being used in this way: en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Types#Diachronic_languages
 
Adarain
Adarain
it describes the process of tracking a language through time, ie simulating language change, yea. but I don’t find it appropriate to claim it distinct to conlanging
I personally consider it synonymous to language change
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
@Adarain I never said it was distinct?
 
Adarain
Adarain
your tag excerpts do
there was a bunch of “language change is X. for conlangs, diachronics is used” or sth along those lines
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
@Adarain That's how I'd suggest they're used ehre
 
Adarain
Adarain
that’s confusing/misleading, and also not necessary since questions ought to be about conlangs anyway
I would treat the two tags as synonyms, from what I can tell SE has some functionality like htat
I would tag questions about sound changes, analogy, levelling, grammaticalization etc as diachronics either way
or as language change. they mean the same thing to me and I wouldn’t know how to separate the two as tags in a way that is actually clear
like, what is a question exclusive to diachronic conlanging?
or one that would be on-topic but not about diachronic conlanging?
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
10:16 AM
Yes we can have tag synonyms. But in that case I'd want diachronics to be a synonym of simulated-language-change
 
Adarain
Adarain
any on topic questions regarding language change by necessity has to be about help with simulated language change though, otherwise it would have to go on linguistics.SE
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
@Adarain That would be a substantial change to scope. The study of existing conlangs has always been on topic according to the area 51 process
 
Adarain
Adarain
the only conlang with native speakers is esperanto though
so it only applies to that lang
there has been no language change with any other conlang
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
It doesn't have to only be completely native speakers, and there are other languages
@Adarain that's a big claim
 
Adarain
Adarain
I mean for there to be language change with a conlang, it first has to have speakers. and I don’t consider imperfect acquisition by second language learners to be examples of language change
nor revisions to the language by its creators
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
10:21 AM
I agree, but I'd expect there to be more than just Esperanto
 
Adarain
Adarain
I’m sure there are some conlangs which have been passed down to their children. but iirc esperanto is the only language where a) that has been done in more than isolated cases and b) the only instance of second generation native speakers
I see your point though
but the tag excerpts need to be written differently imo. they shouldn’t read “in conlanging, diachronics means X” because that’s misleading. perhaps word them as “diachronics referes to the documentation of language as it changed through time. this is often simulated in conlangs”
I would do it myself but I can’t figure out how
i.imgur.com/sDP4ZTC.png is what I get when I try to edit a tag
 
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
Diachronics as a noun isn't really used in Linguistics I think...
We should take this to meta
I've gotta go
 
Adarain
Adarain
I’ll make a post on meta
 
 
6 hours later…
Adarain
Adarain
4:17 PM
How much would it go against the spirit of StackExchange to run challenges (such as reconstruction or decoding games involving conlangs) here?
I hear there is a puzzling SE
eh I’ll make a meta post
 
 
1 hour later…
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
5:23 PM
@Adarain Yes, there is, and it consists mostly (but not entirely) of challenge questions, where the OP knows the solution and answerers need to work it out.
However, the process by which Puzzling SE transformed from a normal Q&A site into a challenge-and-solution site was ... extremely controversial.
 
Adarain
Adarain
yea that’s the sorta stuff I had in mind too, see the meta post
well now there’s precedent :P
I have no real opinion, I just wanted to throw out the idea
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
There was a precedent even then: Programming Puzzles & Code Golf is also essentially a challenge site.
 
Adarain
Adarain
well then there’s more precedent now :P
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
On Puzzling, mods said that for some reason this couldn't be another 'SE exception' like PPCG.
Turned out it could, but the era known as the Great Puzzling War is one that left a lot of scars on many of us.
 
Adarain
Adarain
as said, I have no idea if it’s a good idea; I just wanted to bring it up
what was the SE before it was what it is now?
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
5:25 PM
(I should answer that meta post, shouldn't I)
 
Adarain
Adarain
if you have sth meaningful to say, please do :)
(btw, I fully expect an overwhelming “no, or at least not for now”)
I’m also curious whether the questions of types 1 and 2 (which might be expectable to see on a linguistics olympiad btw) might be appropriate on puzzling.SE
they’re basically impossible without knowledge of linguistics
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Adarain Puzzling? Originally it was a site for Q&A about puzzles, based on the common SE philosophy of "questions should be based on an actual problem that you face".
@Adarain My answer would probably be more "background info based on Puzzling experience" than an actual answer on whether or not Conlang should do this ...
 
Adarain
Adarain
fair enough, please answer anyway :)
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Adarain 1 and 2 sound like the types of questions we see all the time on Puzzling, just not with a conlang flavour. 1 is the same kind of puzzle genre as these, and 2 is a bit like many of our cipher puzzles.
 
Adarain
Adarain
I don’t think 2 is very similar to ciphers. Hang on lemme grab an example of what I had in mind
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
5:31 PM
Requiring knowledge of linguistics wouldn't necessarily be a problem there, depending on how advanced knowledge would be required.
 
Gufferdk
Gufferdk
So regarding the whole diachronics vs. language-change thing, I don't think I'm quite sure about how they should be used, would a question about how accusative case markers emerge recieve one (and which) or both?
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Adarain I will, if I can find time - not right away :-)
Actually I just dropped in to say YAY, Sai signed up.
 
Adarain
Adarain
and yea they did
they posted something on day 2 or so, iirc
that there is with a natural language but the same sorta stuff could obviously be constructed for a conlang; known or homemade
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
4
Q: A fish story on aymara language

FejsInteresting story I stumbled upon: Aymara is a South American language spoken by more than 2 million people in the area around Lake Titicaca. Among the speakers of Aymara are the Uros, a fishing people who live on artificial islands, woven from reeds, that float on the surface of Lake Titicaca. ...

logical-deduction
 
Adarain
Adarain
ooh that looks fun
I might try and construct some puzzle in a conlang of mine and post it on puzzling.SE
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
5:42 PM
Even this has some languagey elements:
13
Q: Knights and knaves in a foreign language

d'alar'copYou die and ascend to heaven, there is a knight (truth-teller), a knave (pure liar) and a joker (random) sitting on a cloud - they all look the same. In order to gain entry you must determine their identities. You have 3 yes/no questions (each directed to only one of them). They will only respond...

logical-deduction liars
 
Adarain
Adarain
eh, that one’s definitely more of a logic puzzle
 
 
3 hours later…
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
8:40 PM
@Adarain I've been trying to do this for ages haha
 
Adarain
Adarain
puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/60394/… I just put one up, though it’s a bit more mathematical in nature than what I’d usually do
(bit of a low hanging fruit)
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
Looks fun! I'm onto it
While we're at it, have you checked out questions from the International Linguistics Olympiad?
 
Adarain
Adarain
I have
some are fun, some are not really my thing
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
9:49 PM
@Adarain so Gareth beat me to the solution, but then I realised mine was slightly different
 
Adarain
Adarain
oh?
is it actually ambiguous?
I couldn’t find any ambiguities
(except that the sum actually has two ways of being represented, which doesn’t matter)
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
oh yikes, I somehow forgot the part where you said the number left was the sum of two others listed
 
Adarain
Adarain
yea without that there’s no clear solution actually
you can’t figure out which one’s two and which one’s three
 
as4s4hetic
as4s4hetic
yep I had them mixed around
that was neat :)
 
 
1 hour later…
curiousdannii
curiousdannii
11:15 PM
@Gufferdk Depends what your intention was. If conlang X originally didn't have ACC case, and does now, and you want to know how that changed, you'd use language-change. If you want to know common reasons for case being introduced so you could model them in your creations, you'd use diachronics
 

« first day (2 days earlier)      last day (2252 days later) »