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07:16
Ok so I made a good faith edit to a title with detailed reason. Then someone else (another respected regular Answerer) just edited it back, essentially saying the reason wasn't good enough.
So I edited it back.
07:31
Hi, Mr. HandLouis!
Hiya Ben!
Ahem! I didn't say "the reason wasn't good enough". I said you spoiled the force of the question.
Ok no problem... let's discuss and move forward, shall we? :)
Yes, let's. :)
What makes the question interesting--what drives the rhetoric in the answers--is the premise, taken for granted by the question, that starting a sentence with "But" is wrong. If we turn it into "I think...", it becomes weak and less compelling.
Let me ping back to you in 10-20 minutes.. you'll be around?
07:34
Sure. I'll slave away at some Python programming.
@CoolHandLouis Be sure to mention me with an @ (as in this message) when you get back, so my computer will beep.
@BenKovitz - I think since both our opinions are in the comments, why don't we just ask someone to decide which one takes precedence, like JR? I think it's more an ideological belief about the purpose of titles.
@CoolHandLouis Well, before we give up, how about we see if there's a way to address both our concerns, or if either of us finds somethings of importance in the other's concern.
@CoolHandLouis I mean, how about we try that for a few minutes, and if we get nowhere, then turn it over to someone else?
BTW, have you ever edited Wikipedia?
Yes
You want to know my user name over there?
07:47
Sure!
ok here it is...
CoolHandLouis :)
I never would have guessed. Thanks for letting me in on the secret. :)
:)
Ok so... The title shows up in Google Search and is important that it doesn't contain a "false answer" within it. I moved the presumption of validity to a statement of belief. This still provides the "provocative tone" of the original without misleading people with the false-yet-popular premise
Checking...
07:48
Can you explain what you mean by a "false answer"?
The BOLD thing was a digression. Please forgive me.
Ok
false premise: Why do people, incorrectly, begin a sentence with the word "But"?
It's Wikipedia's convention for disagreeing with an edit: just revert it, and then the burden is on the person who made the edit to discuss it.
I think it's a great convention, but it can be a little jarring if you've never seen it before.
I'm not so sure that would work here... maybe a good meta question.
So for example, I wouldn't want questions to say things like
Indeed the BOLD convention might not work here. SE has a couple wiki-ish things, for which that convention works well, but overall SE is not wiki-ish, in that most text has a solo author, and decisions about text are made by that author, not by consensus.
Ok but let's get back on topic, shall we? :)
07:56
Yes. :)
I get the impression that both of us are natural-born digressers.
So for example... (yes true...) ... example...
(and would love to discuss that... but I'm short on time.. :)
OK, maybe I'm starting to understand your point better. Are you thinking that a question should not have a false premise?
Question: Why do people still use colons even though it's deprecated?
would be changed to
Question: I think colons are deprecated. Is this true?
A purpose of StackExchange (forgive me if you know) is to be #1 in google for questions... the question title will show up in the results
So a question that presumes something false would be misleading to someone that is quickly scanning.
We don't want questions intimating some answer that is not true.
That's my take.
OK, another factor is that a question should be searchable: when people have that question, they should be able to google for it, and our excellent page of SE answers should show up right at the top. Is that right?
Perhaps. But the page title is the question title.
And that's what will show as the primary line in the google result.
BTW, I don't know if the person posting that "question" was trolling or not.
08:05
From my interaction with him in the comments, he seems sincere. And certainly he's not alone in thinking that it's ungrammatical to start a sentence with "but".
But anyway, did I correctly summarize the factors that you are thinking are important?
A "teacher" who made a very provocative question and ...
Do you also teach that it is incorrect to end a sentence in a preposition? In general, I would suggest you stop "correcting" other people's uses of but to start a sentence. In addition, I think your so-called corrected renditions would be better with a comma (,) before but. — δοῦλος 9 hours ago
no woops wrong comment....
The OP says I respectfully ask this question to non-native English speakers: Why do you feel that is it OK to begin a sentence with "But"? lol There's like maybe one response from a nonnative speaker... — δοῦλος 2 hours ago
That's also very provocative to blanket ask non-native speakers why "they" feel it's OK.... etc.
I'm not sure I'm following this latest line of thought. Before we go to that, though, can you let me know if I correctly understood your first two points?
A question should not have a false premise; neither in the title nor in the question itself. It makes any question/answer pair very difficult for people to easily read because they have to wade through all the back and forth discussion. I'm not saying this is a hard rule but a guideline. In this case, it was also
that both the title and question seemed overly provocative, and toning down the title seemed appropriate. It's just a question.
OK, let's see if I understood you right, then: Ceteris paribus, a question should not contain a false premise. Is that right?
I didn't say that.
08:16
Oh! OK, where did I misunderstand?
Well I just wouldn't say it in that manner, that's all.
Oh, I see. I'm restating it in my own words (and a wee bit playfully) to verify that I really understand you. Did I get the gist of your point right?
I hope so. :)
Did my summary give you some doubt?
Neither doubt nor certainty about your true understanding. However,
I do think I made myself clear.
Is there some point you don't understand?
Or more importantly, is there something you disagree with?
08:19
I'm pretty sure I got it. My only basis for doubt is that you said "I hope so" and that you don't have "certainty" when I asked if I got it right.
Well I think you're a very intelligent person. I have absolutely no doubt about that! :)
You have excellent answers!
Well, thanks. And of course I've sensed great intelligence in your own many contributions to SE. :)
Very clearly spoken and well written!
So I've posited my position in this particular pernicious problem.
I'm hoping to avoid the usual talking-past-each-other when people disagree without checking if they really understand what the other person means.
What say ye?
08:24
OK, so, to confirm my understanding. Factor #1: It's bad if a question contains a false premise (which can be overridden by other factors, of course). Factor #2: It's good if people with the same question can easily find the SE page on Google. Es correcto?
I remember that I was taught that way. (Never begin your sentences with but, and, or.) Which I thought very unnatural. Later in life, I learned that such a rule, like many other rules I was taught about English, is unrealistic.
Hello, everyone!
@DamkerngT. Hi! CoolHandLouis and I are discussing an edit to the title of that question.
@CoolHandLouis If you think I've understood you right (or at least well enough that we're not talking past each other), just say yes, and I'll present my thinking.
I've checked it out. After reading skimming through the OP's post, I think either version is fine.
Ok well it's been 45 minutes and I've run out of time on this Ben. If you want to raise to JR, be my guest!
@CoolHandLouis Oh well, I look forward to seeing you again on chat.
@CoolHandLouis There's no great rush, but I'd like the opportunity to explain my thinking to you, and then see what we both come up with.
08:32
For me, the title (and I mean the title of any post) is inherently subjective. It's up to us (the community) to choose whether we want to make it more objective or make the subjective thoughts more obvious.
Just my opinion.
@CoolHandLouis Clearly we both care. So there's probably some good that can come of that.
@J.R. I thought for sure I answered this question:
7
A: That which doesn't kill you

Maulik VThis is my opinion. How do I see the dialogue from the legendary actor. ‘Whatever doesn’t kill you, makes you . . . stranger,’ the old proverb is actually derived from Nietzsche -‘Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger’. I think Ledger takes it as a kind of pun. The Joker likes to t...

not his answer woops
The question...
7
Q: That which doesn't kill you

JolenealaskaThis is a "Hot Network Question" from another site that I thought would make a great question here. The Joker: "I believe whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you stranger." (Clip from The Dark Knight for context) I think it's a great line, but what does it mean? And how is it twisted?

> So, I respectfully ask this question to non-native English speakers: Why do you feel that is it OK to begin a sentence with "But"?
http://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/52239/why-do-people-begin-a-sentence-with-the-word-but-i-think-thats-incorrect
Was my answer deleted?
That's a weird question, coming from a non-native speaker.
08:37
@CoolHandLouis You posted an answer?
@CoolHandLouis I can't see your answer!
I posted a Very Good Answer. Though it might have been to the same question on another stack site... I cannot find it.
I remember that Jolenealaska meant it as a question for learners, anyway.
@CoolHandLouis Now I'm curious about that Very Good Answer! I'm pretty sure you can write one!
BTW, iiuc, the Joker didn't wear any mask. It was his own face.
I think it was that movie that was the first time I heard the Batman, rather than just Batman.
Good point. I'm sure it was this very question. I recall the question being why was it "twisted".
I think it's rather clear in the context. (Visual context, I mean.)
08:45
And well, I put a lot of effort into my answer.
Ahh
I've never found a missing post on SE myself before, but I think I've heard someone complain such a thing on some meta site.
Right now, I'm wondering if Superman has ever been called the Superman.
@BenKovitz - I stand corrected, not entirely because of the answers given here (although I thank people for their time), but because the answers led me to find the reason why I had been taught that it was wrong. The quoted explanation about the 19th century cleared that up for me. I'm not quite sure what you mean "by authorities now say otherwise." Surely all English is taught (by an authority - be that a parent, teacher or peer), and conversely learnt? After all, it is not something that one can learn empirically, like the value of gravity, or Hooke's Law. No need to feel disappointed. :-) — Greenonline 2 hours ago
I definitely disagree with that!
Teachers need students. Students don't need teachers.
@DamkerngT. I'm so glad you disagree with all that! I almost wrote an answer entirely about teaching students submission and obedience instead of teaching them English.
I'm glad I didn't, though. The gentle answer I posted seems to have gotten the idea across.
08:52
I may have offended Mormons, though.
@BenKovitz I don't get that. (But it's okay if elaborating on it will complicate the issue even further.)
@DamkerngT. Did you click the link?
Oh, I see now.
Most of the time, I simply skim through ELL posts. That's one of my bad habits.
08:56
@DamkerngT. I don't know what else one can do in the Internet Age. There's too much text, and most of it's crap.
I wonder how much I've missed in all those posts I've read.
@BenKovitz Sadly, but true.
Not your post, I mean. :-)
(Or better: I didn't mean your posts. :-)
@DamkerngT. I understand. :)
I remember one of your posts kinda gave me a revelation about the present perfect.
It was when you wrote that have Ved carries some senses of having that activity or experience with us at the speaking time.
I can't remember which post, though.
@DamkerngT. Really! I hesitated about including that.
I was worried it would only confuse people.
I came up with that when I was a little kid, trying to figure out perfect tenses, in the way little kids do.
It makes perfect sense (hah!) for me.
09:01
Ha!
It still makes sense to me.
Now I'm curious how "have" came to signify perfect tenses. The same thing happened in the Romance languages.
If it happened twice, it's probably not a coincidence.
Does Thai have anything like perfect tenses?
It has the sense of have in Romance languages as well?
@BenKovitz If tenses are about syntax, I can say that Thai has no tenses.
In Italian, you say hai capito? to mean "Do you understand?" Literally, it means "have you understood?" Capire, the verb for "understand", is even in its past-participle form.
Thai has no do and have, so it's more like "You understand?" or even just "Understand?"
I mean "tense" as loosely as possible here. Is there a common, standard way in Thai of indicating that something happened somewhere in a time interval rather than at a specific time?
Or do people not usually think that way when speaking Thai?
The sense of perfect can be suggested by using suggestive words, like "Already understand?"
09:05
I see.
A funny thing is that the perfect tenses don't seem to mean quite the same thing in Italian. I've never gotten fluent with Italian, so I'm not completely sure. But I get the impression that in Italian, the present perfect usually means "the recent past". That's what you'd say hai capito while in English you'd say "do you understand?"
what/why
So English "tense" is one of the most difficult things for Thai learners of English.
@BenKovitz I guess that every language has its own way to see how things go in the world.
I can imagine! Tense is subtle. And English perfect aspect seems to require that you constantly keep your mind attuned to time intervals. And no one ever says anything about this!
Absolutely. Amazingly, completely out of the blue, a friend just sent me a book on how different languages make you see the world differently. I haven't read it yet. I'm saving it until, ahem, I get some work done...
09:34
@Jolenealaska DamkerngT. was right. By meta-comments I meant comments-about-the-question were not necessary within the question (as in meta). Strange thing is I thought I posted an answer to that question, but I guess not.
Pinged out of the blue!
Like a blast from the past! :)
Do I get longest-ever-time-to-reply-to-a-chat-comment award? :)
I think so!
HI GUYS! Long time no see.
I just wanted to clear up that little misunderstanding in case, like... you know... you were still losing sleep over it. :)
Hi! @Jolenealaska! It's very nice to see you again!
09:42
I was a new user 2 months in and prob didn't know much about meta.ell
I barely remember the question. I do remember thinking I'd do more like that, but then I got really involved on Seasoned Advice.
@DamkerngT. Hi there!
@CoolHandLouis Ugh! What was I right about, again?
It was a fun question... there was another one about Dr. Who... similar.
I'm glad to see you, you might be interested (or have something to add) in a post im working on.
@Jolenealaska How're you doing?
09:44
@DamkerngT. Ummm... take your pick.. you're right about just about everything. :)
@CoolHandLouis Hah! That's not right! :P
Heehee
@DamkerngT. My project concerns these:
@Jolenealaska Here's a similar question as your Joker one:
6
Q: Dr. Who says, "be my pal...". What does this mean in this context?

Trevör Anne DeniseIn a teaser for the new series of Doctor Who the Doctor asks Clara : Clara, be my pal and tell me... am I a good man ? My problem is that in French it simply doesn't have any other sense than the fact that he wants Clara to be his friend, which doesn't make that much sense in this sentenc...

@Jolenealaska Oh, เทียนอบ!
Definitely in the same vein, cool. :)
Can you see the review?
09:47
@Jolenealaska Ah, you're one of the reviewers! Wait, the only reviewer! :-)
> I think to understand it better, you need to buy your own!
A very good conclusion! :-)
I started to write a lengthy post on SA about them, went to the site to check something...
and it said "product unavailable"
they were out.
no "awww"
I contacted the seller.
09:50
Oh, and you got one?
Fix it before I find another source and give them the free advertising.
Oh yeah, and I've got the cookies down to a science.
There are 2 current questions on SA about them, I'm writing lengthy posts tonight to settle them both.
Wow, I guess we can do lots of scientific stuff with cookies!
Notice they're in stock again.
09:53
@Jolenealaska Yes! The page also says "Ship from California". :P
In a way we can...I actually want to get back to it, it's a project for tonight. Yep, but I'm sure they are imported from Thailand.
I've probably spent too much time on ELL, so ship from was the first thing I saw!
When I finish the posts, I'll bring links here to you.
@Jolenealaska I suppose. Though I guess they could import only ingredients and turned them into Tian Op in California.
@Jolenealaska Looking forward to it!
I'll try not to be such a stranger, but tonight's a busy night, so I'll catch you later.
CYA!
09:56
See you soon!
By the way, the most scientific thing I would do with cookies would be tasting them! -- Nom, nom!
Hee
3
A: Religious insensitivity

JasperIn my history courses, I was told that: The British Army of the time used an ammunition cartridge that required the troop to bite off a piece of each round. The round included a grease. The mutineers believed a rumor that the grease was made from a mixture of pig fat and cow fat. Muslims believ...

What else could they use to make the grease? Whale fat? Poor whales!
1
Q: How to find letters exemplifying high-quality, heightened, or highly educated letter-writing styles?

DéboraI am not a native English speaker and want to improve my letter writing skills. I'm not looking for letters written at an ordinary academic level, but for those that might exemplify the abilities of writers at high professional or educational levels. Therefore I am looking for well written Englis...

I'm not sure if this one is on-topic.
Hmm... it's asking for learning resources?
@CoolHandLouis Before you continue editing the message, would you kindly take a few minutes to talk about it?
I'm back
@CoolHandLouis Welcome, indefatiguable editor!
@CoolHandLouis OK, did I understand you right about the factors you're addressing. Factor #1: It's bad if a question contains a false premise (which can be overridden by other factors, of course). Factor #2: It's good if people with the same question can easily find the SE page on Google. Es correcto?
BTW, I think an alternative, "Isn't it incorrect to begin a sentence with the word "But"? would be even better and perhaps closer to the original sentiment without creating a false premise in the question itself.
@CoolHandLouis Are you having some hesitation about saying "yes" or "no"?
10:26
@BenKovitz Ben, thanks for the edit to my answer :^)
@J.R. :)
And your answer was excellent. I almost cheered when you third-graders called the teacher out, and hissed when she gave her lame answer back to your insightful query.
@J.R. That was a mighty fun question!
@J.R. Glad to hear you enjoyed the anecdote. Hopefully that will dissolve any misconceptions about answers on ELL needing to be impersonal and academic. ;)
LOL
@CoolHandLouis There's no record of you ever posting an answer to that particular question, although you did delete one of your own comments, and you performed one edit.
You're not thinking of this answer by chance, are you?
@BenKovitz - That meta question was a good one, too. I answered late in the evening, and I hope my rambling made sense :)
@J.R. Yes, definitely. I also try to use as little terminology in my answers as possible. But, as you say, sometimes terminology helps, and I'm glad that we have a few people who do it quite differently.
@J.R. I also liked your "pub" analogy--further helping dispel that imagined need to be academic and cite authorities and that sort of thing.
10:41
Citing a reference is like starting a sentence with a preposition – it depends on the situation. I think some very "thin" answers could be improved if the answerer elaborates a little bit, and citing a reference can be a good way to do that. But elaboration can take on other forms, too – like a good "gotcha!" anecdote from a third-grade classroom.
By the way, my daughters once told me how it drove them nuts how my answers to 90% of their questions boiled down to, "It depends." A few people on ELL have rolled their eyes, too. I was once asked, "Why do you always have to point out an exception to everything?"
And I said, "Because there's usually an exception, and learners need to know about them."
Yeah, this is an interesting thing about English, or maybe learning any language: people demand rules, and when there really aren't true rules, they're disappointed.
My current thinking is to avoid speaking of rules. That way, there won't be exceptions. Instead, I've been trying to explain people's expectations, competing factors that affect how someone will understand a word or phrase, that sort of thing.
expectations as they read a sentence, I mean
StoneyB just posted a comment that might be the nicest compliment I've ever received! He said my answer was "humane".
 
2 hours later…
Anonymous
12:32
@BenKovitz See the OED.
Anonymous
> [The use of have as a perfect auxiliary] arose directly from sense 2 b, the object possessed having in agreement with it a passive participle of a transitive verb as attribute or complement; thus, I have my work done = 'I possess or have my work in a done or finished condition', whence, by inference of antecedent action from result, the actual sense 'I have done my work' [...]
Anonymous
That sort of grammaticalization would of course not be possible with the set of word orders that are usual in modern English―it happened quite a long time ago
Anonymous
Compare also the perfect auxiliary be, now archaic
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. It's interesting that they think it's not something that can be studied empirically
Anonymous
@BenKovitz Sounds more like a matter of aspect
Anonymous
12:38
@DamkerngT. Seems likely.
13:01
@snailboat Another way to look at it is probably their take on empirically and authority is different from ours. (Well, it's at least different from mine!)
Morning!
@DamkerngT. I decided to build a simple computer :-) because I have never done it before. But I will put Ubuntu in it. Let's see how it goes :-)
@Man_From_India Congrats! I think Ubuntu is a rather safe bet. I'm quite sure that you won't have much trouble with it.
13:17
yup...and i am going for as cheap as possible...I don't need it but still I will do it for fun :-)
I wouldn't have thought of building a Hackintosh, if I'm not interested in doing some Xcode, and I want to have the box moved to me, not me moved to the box (iMac) in another room. :-)
@Man_From_India Is it going to be used for gaming as well?
I'm not any more into gaming. And as I am going to install only Ubuntu, I think good game is not be supported in it.
Oh, yes. I forgot that!
But I will install a GPU, not now, but later
Some inexpensive graphics cards seem to be good enough, from what I've heard.
13:21
The reason I am going for Ubuntu is because I'm new to this assembling stuff, and moreover I will try to do some scripting to modify it.
Yep, but later if I become too frustrated with scripting, or if I can't do it at all I will do a dual booting...and the othe OS will be win 7
and then I will install a GPU, not too advanced...but a moderate one.
I'd recommend G3285 as it's among the top of the league, and it shows the best performance per dollar. tomshardware.com/reviews/…
sure I will go for it
Oh, there is another direction, actually. A low-power consumption one.
13:29
yes that is right...any idea for that?
If I'm going to build a new small box, that can handle HD videos and has a relatively decent performance (not as good as G3285, though), I'd consider Gigabyte J1900M-D2P.
You can think of J1900M as an Intel Atom buffed up. It's a quad-core CPU. Gigabyte J1900M-D2P has everything you need on-board. Just plug in some DDR3 sticks and it will fly! :-)
I am not sure about atom...how is that btw?
The downside is that you can't change the CPU on your motherboard. (But who does that nowadays anyway?!)
Intel Atom was made for low-power consumption, and some models of it can run fanless.
J1900M-D2P is also fanless.
Anonymous
13:33
I'm not sure if I've ever replaced a CPU
@snailboat I have! It was kinda fun!
Hmmm that is very rare now a days...everyone goes for high end processer when they buy/assemble it
Anonymous
We might have replaced the 386 on one of my dad's computers when I was little…. I can't remember anymore
btw how is atom?
13:34
I daresay that this J1900M-D2P will outperform the cheapest NUC (which is running on Celeron as well).
@Man_From_India As far as I can tell, Atom is a thing in the past already.
J1900M-D2P is a quad-core Celeron.
In case you might wonder, I compared it to Intel NUC DN2820FYKH.
ahhh I think that will save a lot of money...that's what I guess
@Man_From_India I have two Atom PCs, actually, for running a not-so-serious stuff. The motherboard is Atom 230, which is good for web surfing (not for someone like me, btw :-) and working as a POS.
@Man_From_India Yes!
it's quad core, but I thing the performance is not that good...because celeron has low frequency...i mean low speed
I think with a cheap PSU, I could make a new PC based on this low-power thingy in the budget of $200.
@Man_From_India Yes. That's true, but these days you can't really compare the GHz.
13:39
(Which is why core-to-core, G3285 can outperform 3rd gen Core i7!)
no idea...but it might
Budget breakdown: Case $30, PSU $25, J1900M-D2P $78, DDR3 1600 4G $34, Kbd+mouse combo $15. Total: $182.
(Add more money for better PSU, case, speaker, etc. :-)
Ohh god that's super cheap....and looks decent
i mean for webbrowsing and watching normal video
13:46
This one comes with an HDMI port. :-)
it's okay...but if u want to watch high resolution video audio and play high end games u have to go for good GPU...
True. But you don't need a GPU for watching HD movies. Intel has already taken care of that. ;-)
Anonymous
I'm not convinced it makes sense to try to teach learners to think about language the same way native speakers do. Native speakers in many cases have no conscious access to the relevant information, though due to the introspection illusion they might be under the impression this is not the case
yes....but u have to move out of atom
Anonymous
What they do consciously think about their own languages is often simply wrong, unless they've taken the time to study these languages and correct their perceptions
13:49
my guess too much HD, and ur video will lag
J1900M-D2P is running on a Celeron quad-core. And this one comes with Intel Quick Sync Video.
So HD is a piece of cake for it.
i should in that case start looking for it :-)
Anonymous
And teaching these useless or wrong perceptions doesn't really help learners address the gaps in their acquisition
Anonymous
It seems like it should be more useful to give accurate descriptions
Anonymous
Certainly there are times when how language is consciously perceived is interesting, of course!
13:51
I think I agree. Though I think it's a good thing to have learners think, introspectively, about their own languages.
Yes, exactly!
what about AMD A4 4000?
it has 2 core...3Ghz...1 mb cache
Stay away from AMD!
It's sad that AMD's lost the battle for a few years already.
AMD sounded like a good idea three years ago.
ohh :O i was planning to give it a try...but if it's out of league...there is no point spending money on them :-)
It runs slower. It consumes more energy!
no way then
13:58
Their graphics card is another story. (Most of their cards consume energy like devils, still, from what I've heard and tried.)

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