English Language Learners

Anonymous

00:00

My friend had me watch a UK show again

Anonymous

One of the characters said greyhound, but I heard ground

Anonymous

Even though I had sufficient context to know that ground made no sense, I couldn't figure it out and I had to ask

Anonymous

I'm reminded that I can't always understand what people say, even in my native language :-)

Anonymous

That's a nice reminder, given how I'm usually focusing on listening comprehension in Japanese

Damkerng T.

00:32

4 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

Batallions not designated by letters, but by numbers. @DamkerngT. — CarSmack 48 mins ago

4 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

I think that two sentences are really difficult! -- It's rather clear that native speakers can hear something that hadn't been said.

I'm sure that it didn't come out like, "Another lousy three inches", but I'm also sure that he meant what CarSmack wrote.

Anonymous

02:22

> And nowadays, I'd of is being used more and more instead of I'd've in written English.

Anonymous

Not borne out in a Google Books Ngram Viewer search

Anonymous

It probably depends very much on what you mean by "written English"

Anonymous

People probably make more spelling errors online than in published books! :-)

Anonymous

But I wouldn't call it anything but a spelling error . . .

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hee. The automatic captions for that show are silly . . . :-)

Anonymous

02:27

> I was occurring not stop the party and try to have not gone away love three inches I haven't timely be good for a couple days you never know I go back there may be an impression said and I guess our way back to Paris

Damkerng T.

09:11

@snailboat The captions are rather good when the words are rather clear. The whole captions are sort of goofy! Sounds like they are from another movie (maybe Party! instead of Combat! :-).

Damkerng T.

09:36

2

Q: a brain region called the anterior cingulate cortex: why not "the" brain region?

From a news report: Now that they had evidence that the brain could generate both strategic and random behavior, Karpova and her colleagues wanted to know how it switched between modes. Since that switch determines whether or not an animal's internal model of the world influences its behavio...

articles

I prefer a there. It's "a brain region called blah blah, where blah blah blah".

Even weirder, I agree that I prefer the here: "the show involves a the technique called 'breaking the forth wall'".

The question is Why?

Ice Boy

good question

hi btw

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Ice Boy

when I read the article "the" I automatically insert the word "specific" or "particular" right after it.

but with "a" I insert "any" for it

hey

I have found the quiet of time we have to work it out by what sounds right.

Damkerng T.

@IceBoy Good tip!

@hey Ah, I agree. Sounds are very important!

hey

09:47

which can be frustrating for a learner.

Damkerng T.

Very much so!

Ice Boy

but meaning is more important than sound, right?

Damkerng T.

nods

Ice Boy

bring me an apple vs bring me the apple

bring me any apple vs bring me the specific apple

hey

pronunciation of "the" -> "thuh" and "thee". Which is correct? I use both depending on sentence.

Ice Boy

09:55

you are correct, it depends on context

Damkerng T.

When reading aloud, I usually pronounce thuh and thee mindfully.

In spontaneous speech, I don't think of it much. :)

I'm pretty sure that a lot of my a ("uh") are pronounced as "ay" in real speech.

Ice Boy

yes, authors usually have a meaning in mind...and they leave it to the reader to adjust their pronunciation

depending, of course, on the level of sophistication that they are writing at

Amit Joki

13:49

can someone help me come with a name for my character??

user116848

I can help. But I am not a native speaker.

user116848

I am from Pakistan.

Amit Joki

@Arrowfar I'm looking for a name for a professor.. English name would be preferred. And I'm from India ;)

Damkerng T.

@AmitJoki You mean come up, I suppose. How about "Jonathan Stockton"? :-)

Amit Joki

Well, I don't know to answer about "How about" but that's definitely good!

Damkerng T.

13:55

What kind of name do you have in mind?

user116848

@AmitJoki How about 'Professor (something)' like in x-men etc.?

Damkerng T.

For example, some people use a stage name such as Pleasence and it sounds a bit pleasant! :-)

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. I'm not sure... I've not heard English names except in SE and Harry Potter books.. So, I would like the name to be fictious...

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I see. It's unnecessary to have some meanings attached to the name, then.

Amit Joki

I've to use it for my blog..if context is needed, here it is:

"Chadwick, is it the boy whom I asked you to alert me if he ever was to contact us?"
"Well, yes Professor Blackwell... "

Damkerng T.

13:59

Blackwell is a nice name too!

Amit Joki

I've used the place holder Blackwell, but It doesn't sound masculine, does it? And it must be like a villainy name... @DamkerngT.

And I certainly don't think Chadwick is nice either... I feel depressed not to find good names like Albus Dumbledore, Severus Snape, McGonall, Flitwick...

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Not that villainy. I think it sounds rather masculine, though.

Is this a period novel or a futuristic one?

Amit Joki

What's a period novel??

Damkerng T.

Something from way back in the past. (Hence, the term "period".)

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. no no..I thought the name of the blog would quite make it clear.. 2200CE.. doesn't it?

it's definitely futuristic

Damkerng T.

14:04

Ah, sorry! I missed that!

Then, I think those names from Harry Potter probably don't fit well.

What do you think of the future? Would people become simpler or more sophisticated with their names?

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. well simple, I suppose..

Damkerng T.

Some novels (such as Cloud Atlas) even speculate changes in the English language!

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. well, can you think family names for already named characters - Jon, Bolt, Pieter and Anna?

Damkerng T.

They are from the same family?

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. never heard of that... I'm just 15 now, maybe I'll read that up when I grow up... and they aren't from the same family. Jon, Anna are from different families while the other two are from the same family

Damkerng T.

14:10

But all of them are English, perhaps?

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. Yeah.

Damkerng T.

How about something like, Wellington, Baker, and Simmons.

Amit Joki

Jon Baker, Anna Wellington and Pieter & Bolt Simmons? Sounds good except for Wellington I suppose..

Damkerng T.

Short surnames such as Jones, Bell, Jackson, etc. are quite common too.

I think Anna Bell sounds rather nice.

Amit Joki

I thought that too.. cheers!

Damkerng T.

14:14

:)

Amit Joki

Well, then can something be replaced in place of Chadwick? It seems quite old and not too catchy

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Harry and Perry are already taken by some popular novels.

How about Adam?

(Somehow I start thinking from letter A!)

Amit Joki

Here's the preview for the context may be.. 2200ce.wordpress.com/?p=62&preview=true

Damkerng T.

Page not found!

But I can reach: 2200ce.wordpress.com

Hmm... I think there should be some places for those baby names we could use.

Oh, there are lots of names here: babycenter.com/top-baby-names-2013

Amit Joki

Ah forgot something important.. The professor's name and the respondent's name must be kinda alien and must be unusual as they aren't humans..

Damkerng T.

14:19

Oh!

(Skywalker came to mind. :-)

Still can't come up with a good name for that. This is harder than I thought!

Amit Joki

I’m Chadwick, the Official Respondent of Universal Headquarters for Alien Communication. Your IP address was contacted 4 nights ago and our systems have identified you as a Homo sapien, not fully grown, from Earth.

“Well, really? You can just address me ‘Jon’.”

“Ain’t got time for that. Come to the point. Have to attend to others”

“Er, someone said Earth’s time has come?”

“Ah! Yes. You’ve my wishes….my boy. It’s really sad to know… “, said Chadwick in a sarcastic tone. Then another voice sounding as furious as furious could be, came from nowhere.

Book writing (okay at least an attempt) is not child's play!

Damkerng T.

Oh, got an idea. I think you could add a number to a name, and it will sound alien!

> Hello, I'm Logan-7. I come in peace.

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. cool.. but there's one thing that still pings me.. numbered names are autonomous and don't users find it not easy to remember? Logan-7 is still cool though

Damkerng T.

Probably so. :)

Another idea is using those astronomy-related names, like a star or galaxy name, or even a name of a scientist!

Amit Joki

Yeah that's pretty flawless idea... nothing can go wrong with that..

Damkerng T.

14:29

Like, Ferdinand Magellan.

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. Ah, outright copying of names of Earth's scientists doesn't sound good. We have to invent a new name and it might be astronomy-related names, like a star or galaxy name..

@DamkerngT. For example Asimo sounds futuristic(I don't suppose to include it but to just give a hint)

Damkerng T.

@AmitJoki Perhaps because of the ending o sound.

Amit Joki

Star Wars names were pretty good. Will have to think something like that.. but can't use them because of copyright issues. Ah! I found a solution.. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Damkerng T.

Neat!

Amit Joki

now the task is to choose one among them :|

Damkerng T.

14:35

:)

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. How about Haldus?

Damkerng T.

Quite good!

Amit Joki

Professor Seginus?

Damkerng T.

Sounds related to Sagittarius! Another good name!

I was about to suggest Kuma. It sounds a bit exotic, easy to pronounce, and astronomical!

Amit Joki

so I'll use them! :)

Damkerng T.

14:39

Cheers!

Amit Joki

I'd use it for a female character for sure...Could you give me some feedback going through the blog?

Damkerng T.

Maybe later. :) Which post would you like feedback in particular?

Amit Joki

2200ce.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/response-from-the-space

Damkerng T.

Bookmarked! Looks like a good start of a long story. :)

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. thanks.. I suppose so.. BTW I do use the word "suppose" too many times, I suppose, don't you ;)

Damkerng T.

14:45

I suppose!

Amit Joki

BTW, that page isn't the starting part.. this 2200ce.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/not-another-morning is.

Damkerng T.

Ah! That was from last month.

Gotta go. BBL

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. yeah.. And how would you indicate in writing that some one is shivering or stammering..

Damkerng T.

15:42

@AmitJoki Something like: "Sh-sh-she was there," the alien stammered.

Amit Joki

@DamkerngT. thanks thought you were fed up with me :p

Damkerng T.

Oh, not so. I was busy with something else too. Still am.

Gotta go again. :)

Amit Joki

(y)

Ah! this isn't fb. Can we be friends on fb, thought isn't bad I think?

Anonymous

16:37

@hey The typical rule taught to learners is use "thee" before vowel sounds and "thuh" before consonant sounds

Anonymous

In other words, "thuh" is like "a" and "thee" is like "an"

Anonymous

In IPA, that would be /ðə/ before consonant sounds and /ði/ before vowel sounds

Anonymous

Not all native speakers follow this rule, but it's still pretty common

Anonymous

One last rule: when you stress the, you pronounce it /ði/ rather than /ðə/, even before a consonant

Anonymous

(Again, not all native speakers follow this rule)

user116848

16:44

Yes, I agree. It was my question here too some time back. :-)

user116848

> It was my question here too some time back

user116848

@snailboat How can I improve this ^. Or is it just fine as it is?

user116848

> It was also my question here, some time back

Anonymous

"I asked the same question a while back"

user116848

Oh, I see. So stupid of me!

user116848

16:47

:)

Anonymous

Hehe, there was nothing stupid about the question :-)

user116848

So, writing sentences with 'too' doesn't look good I guess.

user116848

What do you think?

Anonymous

"I asked that question too a while back"

user116848

Do you use the structure I wrote above?

Anonymous

16:48

The same makes too redundant, but you could use it instead

user116848

Yes. 'a while back' is much native like Id say.

user116848

Looks good too.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Well, let's hope so :-)

Anonymous

It would be bad if I couldn't come up with native-like ways to phrase things!

user116848

No, your sentences rock! ;-)

user62015

17:00

Hello @snailboat! How are you doing today?

I got a few small questions for you. If you have a little bit time.

Anonymous

You can just ask stuff in the room instead of waiting for me to have time

Anonymous

Then I can respond if I see it and have time

Anonymous

I am here, though

user62015

Hi

Sorry I was away.

Anonymous

Hello!

Anonymous

17:13

Welcome back

user62015

I am back. Thanks.

In English some nouns are uncountable for examples: furniture, equipment, water etc. So my question is can we use the article "a" before them like this is a furniture instead of this is a piece of furniture.

If there is only one piece of furniture.

Can we use the article a instead of a piece of furniture.

Anonymous

No, you should say a piece of furniture, not *a furniture

Anonymous

There are certain (mostly systematic) exceptions

Anonymous

Where non-count nouns permit count interpretations as well:

Anonymous

Water is typically non-count, so you would say a glass of water and not *a water

Anonymous

17:17

However, at a restaurant you may order a water or two waters

user62015

Okay. As furniture is a non-countable noun.

Anonymous

In that sense, water is a count noun

user62015

But nowadays I read in novels and hear in restaurants that people say a water and a tea please but I assume them as a glass of water and a cup of tea. As people do not have enough time to complete it!

Anonymous

No, it has nothing to do with time

Anonymous

It is complete because water and tea and other items in their semantic class permit a count interpretation as well in that context

user62015

17:19

Okay.

I understood.

Anonymous

To put it another way: certain words have both count and non-count uses.

user62015

So there are some pieces of furniture is also perfect.

?

Anonymous

That's grammatical, although you could just say some furniture

user62015

Fine.

Anonymous

The words which are typically non-count but have count interpretations available mostly fit into a few semantic classes.

user62015

17:22

Okay. Thanks. I am done for now. I will ping you if I need more help. Have a great time and thank you so much.

Anonymous

Oh, okay.

Damkerng T.

I starred that, no matter what classes will follow.

I'm back. Yay!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, I changed it to a period because the discussion ended on me :-)

Anonymous

CGEL gives six classes

Anonymous

The one we already discussed is the first one, with a water

Anonymous

17:24

The second one is for varieties of food: "We're having cheese for lunch." (non-count) "These are two of my favorite cheeses." (count)

Anonymous

The third is for animals considered as food: "We're having salmon for dinner today." (non-count) "I was lucky enough to catch a salmon today." (count)

Anonymous

Although in this case it's not really an exception, more of a systematic alternation

Damkerng T.

semantic, perhaps?

Anonymous

I meant what I wrote

Anonymous

Although it is a semantic class.

Damkerng T.

17:27

(Still can't figure out the system for the alternation.)

Anonymous

In our discussion of a water, I consider the count use to be an exception to what is typically a non-count word

Anonymous

It is a systematic exception―it occurs for every noun in its semantic class

Anonymous

So it is not really a property of the individual word

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

Here, however, there is no exception, at least in my mind. Neither the count nor non-count use feels primary to me

Anonymous

17:29

If I did have to pick one, I'd pick the count use as primary, although in my daily life the non-count use is more common

Anonymous

So I would just call it a simple alternation

Damkerng T.

Poor animals!

Anonymous

If you'd like, you could argue that my terms are non-ideal, but I said these things this way because they make sense to me :-)

Anonymous

It's true. Poor animals.

Damkerng T.

I didn't mean that; I just couldn't make sense of it the first time I read.

@snailboat But yummy! O, poor animals!

Anonymous

17:31

There are a number of ways we can conceptualize alternations between count and non-count uses of words

Anonymous

When I feel like one sense is primary, it seems straightforward to me to label the other sense as an exception

Anonymous

As in the case of water

Anonymous

But we could call all of these alternations.

Anonymous

One way we can talk about these exceptions

Anonymous

Is by saying that these nouns, like water, are basically non-count, but are subject to a process called countification

Damkerng T.

17:32

nods

Anonymous

Some linguists (not the authors of CGEL) use that terminology

Anonymous

In that case, we can identify a few types of countification

Damkerng T.

I think the more difficult ones are those that can have exactly the same sense (at least to NNS) being used as countable/uncountable.

Oh, please continue.

Anonymous

We can relate it to the difference between abstract and concrete nouns

Anonymous

> Necessity is the mother of invention. (non-count abstract noun)

Anonymous

17:33

> Edison was honored for three separate inventions.

Damkerng T.

The two senses seem different for me.

Anonymous

Yes, the latter is a concrete noun

Anonymous

It represents an instance of (the abstract noun) invention, or in this case, three separate instances

Anonymous

I'm looking up "concrete noun" now, because it's used on Wikipedia in a way I didn't expect

Damkerng T.

Oh, I can't think of any other way to define it.

> en.wikipedia.org/w/…

Pretty much what I expected, I'd say.

Is it used differently on another page?

Anonymous

17:41

I wouldn't've said that the referents of concrete nouns must be physically observable

Anonymous

Although they typically are

Anonymous

Concrete - "Accessible to the senses, observable, measurable, etc."

Damkerng T.

I'd say a law is rather concrete.

Anonymous

Abstract - "Typically nonobservable and nonmeasurable"

Damkerng T.

Happiness is definitely abstract.

Anonymous

17:43

There's a correspondence between the two categories and whether they're count and non-count

Anonymous

It's not perfect, but with a great many nouns you can see an alternation between concrete and abstract semantics and count and non-count uses

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if software is concrete or abstract.

But sounds like a concept to me.

Anonymous

Hmmph. Semantics is tough stuff. :-)

Anonymous

It feels so slippery, and syntax so, erm, concrete! ;-)

Anonymous

But we can see strong correspondences between syntax and semantics.

Anonymous

17:47

Unfortunately, it doesn't really make sense to talk about syntax without discussing semantics as well.

Anonymous

Well, except in rather limited cases.

Anonymous

Yes, assuming there is a also bad Maulik. In this instance, you would be good. — Tim Romano 5 hours ago

Anonymous

Is that a typo for "also a bad Maulik"?

Anonymous

It took me a moment to make sense of it

Damkerng T.

I think there was no typo there.

> Yes, assuming there is "a" also bad, Maulik.

Anonymous

17:52

Hmm . . . That does appear to be nonsense, though

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Was he trying to make a pun?

Anonymous

Shrug. :-)

Anonymous

The differences in how numbers are grouped in different languages continues to confuse my poor brain.

Anonymous

I looked something up in an index and saw "1014"

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. I didn't read Maulik's comment before Tim's comment.

Anonymous

17:53

My brain said "ten fourteen"

Damkerng T.

I'd read it ten-fourteen too!

Anonymous

But in Japanese, you don't have that option

Anonymous

You'd group it into 1000 and 14

Damkerng T.

If it's a number, not time, Thai is similar to Japanese.

Anonymous

As much as I try to make myself use Japanese numbers in daily life, I'm not sure I'll ever be as comfortable with them as English numbers

Anonymous

17:55

@DamkerngT. Yes, in this case it was a page number

Damkerng T.

Oh!

1014 is three syllables in Thai. :)

Anonymous

If it were a time, like 10:14, then in Japanese you would use the counters 時（じ） and 分（ふん） to indicate hours and minutes

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Same in Japanese!

Anonymous

1000 and then 10 and then 4

Anonymous

How about in Thai?

Damkerng T.

17:56

Same in English too, if you read it as ten-fourteen!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah! You're right! :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat In this case, it's exactly the same.

I guess, intuitively, we prefer the shortest possible alternative.

Anonymous

Yeah

Damkerng T.

I thinks the advantage of Thai and/or Mandarin (and maybe other languages) will show in larger numbers.

Oh, I guess native speakers of English probably use a similar shortcut.

For example, if we found a number 134768, we might just simply read it as a string of digits, not a number, like one-three-four-seven-six-eight.

Anonymous

18:20

@DamkerngT. Yeah, or you could chunk it one way or another:

Anonymous

Thirteen, forty-seven, sixty-eight

Anonymous

One thirty-four, seven sixty-eight

Anonymous

One three four, seven six eight

Anonymous

One three, four seven, six eight

Anonymous

Thirteen forty-seven, sixty-eight

Damkerng T.

18:23

If there is any evidence that Thai is stress-timed, it's probably this reading of large numbers!

Anonymous

You could say one hundred thirty four thousand seven hundred sixty eight

Anonymous

But it's harder to understand readily in speech

Anonymous

It's not so bad, but with very large numbers it can be harder to take in

Damkerng T.

> Thai semi-formal: 134768 = NEUNG saen SAM meun SI pan JED roi HOK sip PAED

@snailboat Quite harder!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Likewise in Japanese

Anonymous

18:29

6

A: What is the correct syntax for large numbers in kanji?

The counting system for large numbers is almost the same as Western numbers, except that digits are delimited into blocks of four instead of three. You add "thousand, million, billion, trillion, ..." for each 3 digit, and in Japanese, we add "万, 億, 兆, 京【けい】, ..." for each 4 digit. The "correct" ...

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

> 三兆四七六五億二一八九万三四二一

Looks good!

A lot of ways to read numbers in different languages!

Eh?

> 三兆四千七百六十五億二千百八十九万三千四百二十一 == 3,470,521,803,421?

I think 九 is nine!

Oh, I see. There are two big numbers. :)

> 三兆四千七百六十五億二千百八十九万三千四百二十一 == 3,476,521,893,421

Anonymous

I think he changed the number so that he could illustrate 〇 in place of zero

Damkerng T.

nods

Oh, I think the difference in Thai is not only about grouping in six. There is no new words introduced in the higher blocks!

> 3,470,521,803,421 ~ [3] LAN [470521] LAN [803421].

So, sometimes to avoid possible confusions, we duplicate the word for the sake of listeners: [3] LAN LAN [470521] LAN [803421]. Which could be funny when the number is really big. (I think LAN LAN LAN is almost about as big as one could handle, so practically 24-digit is the limit.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah!

Damkerng T.

> 123456987654654321456789 => [123456] LAN LAN LAN [987654] LAN LAN [654321] LAN [456789].

Anonymous

18:44

Ah, my brain! :-)

Damkerng T.

:-)

Theoretically, we can repeat as many LANs as we'd like. :-)

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