English Language Learners

Anonymous

00:00

But yes, Japanese has lots of them, and no one's really come up with a good description of them. When I learn them, I feel like I'm just memorizing.

Anonymous

I think snails crawl like necha necha

Damkerng T.

Lots of such words in Thai begin with [kra].

Anonymous

I think it expresses their stickiness.

Damkerng T.

The n sound reminds me of things like [nueb-nub] (also for stickiness).

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

00:01

Some linguists have turned their attention to sound symbolism of various sorts.

Anonymous

Somehow, I have a hard time absorbing that sort of information.

Damkerng T.

Maybe English focuses on other things.

Like tenses and definiteness.

Anonymous

Well, you can make some observations along those lines in English, too.

Anonymous

I leave it to other people to do so. :-)

Anonymous

I think there probably are some universal aspects, though.

Damkerng T.

00:04

Quite likely.

Anonymous

Like our English pop! Japanese pachi!

Anonymous

The initial /p/ I think has certain quality to it that I associate with those.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not sure which sound I should use for [pop]. Maybe also [pop].

Anonymous

What sound do you use for clapping?

Damkerng T.

[pae-pae]

Anonymous

00:06

I was guessing it would have either /k/ or /p/

Damkerng T.

You were right!

[pae-pae] signifies clapping unwillingly. :-)

Anonymous

Like English clap (which is I think originally onomatopoeia) or Japanese pachi

Damkerng T.

[kriew-kraw] signifies lots of people clapping (like standing ovation).

Anonymous

Pachi is the good kind of clapping. But it's also a sound of, say, popcorn popping or fireworks, I think.

Damkerng T.

Oh, fireworks sound [pung].

Anonymous

00:08

I feel like /k/ and /p/ have the right um, sudden sort of quality, for a sound with a rapid attack.

Damkerng T.

But with a different tone [pung] can be the farting sound. :-)

Anonymous

Oh, we have English crackle, too

Anonymous

Well, and plain ol' crack

Anonymous

Crack and clap weren't formed in English, but I think they were originally onomatopoeia.

Damkerng T.

I can recall the crackle sound of wood burning in novels.

It sounds quite nice to me.

Anonymous

00:10

Yeah, it's a sound that fire makes.

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

Well, I have no idea how the sound is formed. From a change in the wood?

Damkerng T.

I think Thai doesn't have sound for this crackle.

Anonymous

I'm not sure about Japanese. Pari pari or pachi pachi again?

Anonymous

Like I said before, I'm not very good at onomatopoeia in Japanese :-)

Anonymous

00:13

Maybe I should make it into a question on Japanese.SE

Anonymous

A lot of /k/ and /p/

Damkerng T.

But we have a sound for aggressive fire burning!

Anonymous

There's snap, which begins with a softer sound, but it has a short vowel and ends in /p/ again

Damkerng T.

[prueb]

Anonymous

Ooh

Anonymous

00:14

Whoosh, the trees went up in flames!

Damkerng T.

I think you're right about /p/ and /k/.

Cerberus

@snailboat Hmm like what?

Anonymous

@Cerberus Like shiin, the "sound" of silence.

Cerberus

What's the relation between it and silence, then?

Anonymous

Pika pika, something shiny, bright, dazzling! If you're familiar with Pokemon, their mascot Pikachuu is named for this because he produces bright bolts of lightning

Damkerng T.

00:16

Thai also has something similar [shi] or [shii].

Anonymous

Kira kira, the "sound" of something pretty!

Damkerng T.

Oh, I couldn't think of a sound of something pretty!

Anonymous

I suppose shiin could be called sound symbolic since it's about auditory perception.

Anonymous

But a lot of others are specifically "mimetic" of mental states or of non-auditory perception

Damkerng T.

The closest one is [nom-nam], but it's for someone (usually an adult) trying to be cute (or childlike).

Anonymous

00:19

But I don't really have a good enough intuitive sense to explain the associations between the sounds and the experiences / perceptions.

Anonymous

I can't tell you why silence is represented by shiin

Damkerng T.

I can. Because it sounds so! :-)

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

In Japanese studies, they're divided into between three and six categories, depending on who's doing the dividing.

Damkerng T.

I'm sure that those sounds invade our brains when we are very young.

Most of them (maybe over 75%) should be picked up before 8 years old.

Anonymous

00:22

@DamkerngT. Oh, good!

Anonymous

So you can do the splainin'.

Damkerng T.

Kinda. :-)

Cerberus

@snailboat Hmm so is that a bit like "yippee!"?

Except made into a noun.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. WendiKidd appears to have migrated it, but then it was rejected, so she reopened it here . . . then migrated it again(?) and Community deleted the re-migrated question moments later

Damkerng T.

Oh, poor OP.

@Cerberus I think Yippee! or Yahoo! sounds like one of these words.

Anonymous

00:24

@Cerberus The most common parts of speech for mimetic words in Japanese are adverb and adjective, along with verbal noun (a noun that can appear in construction with suru "to do", essentially making a verb)

Damkerng T.

One thing I also noticed--Japanese also seems to fond of repeating sounds.

(Like pachi pachi)

Anonymous

Yes, around half of all onomatopoeia in Japanese are reduplicated

Damkerng T.

Thai is also very similar, and we love to repeat sounds not only this kind of words, but for everything.

Anonymous

Reduplication appears in Japanese in other contexts but less commonly.

Anonymous

As in tokidoki "sometimes" (from toki "time") and hitobito "people" (from hito "person")

Cerberus

00:27

@DamkerngT. Ah OK.

Anonymous

"Less commonly" in terms of number of words that feature reduplication, I mean. Some of the words like tokidoki and hitobito are actually very common words.

Cerberus

@snailboat Funny!

Anonymous

Also, children are prone to reduplication.

Anonymous

Is that true cross-linguistically?

Anonymous

I'm picturing an English-speaking children moving a toy car and saying "vroom, vroom!"

Damkerng T.

00:29

Maybe. I'm thinking of [rew-rew] and [wai-wai] in Thai. (Both mean "quick", sort of like "wiki".)

Oh, and many of us seems to invent this kind of words every once in a while.

I think I got [ngung-nging] (meaning cute!) from one of my friends. And I think it's a non-standard, but it sounds quite fit its meaning.

Anonymous

Does that ng indicate [ŋ]?

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Anonymous

So something like [ŋuŋŋiŋ]? I guess the vowels are nasalized, too?

Damkerng T.

Exactly, both in high tone.

Isn't it strange that English's nom nom is similar to Thai's [ngam-ngam]? :-)

Anonymous

Om, nom, nom!

Anonymous

00:37

Have you ever seen the Cookie Monster?

Damkerng T.

Yes, he is cute!

And purple (I think)!

Anonymous

Blue!

Damkerng T.

Blue? Oh, I thought he was purple! Blue is for Blue Clue!

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You thought he was blue.

Anonymous

00:41

There, using was isn't optional

Damkerng T.

Oh, I misremembered his color. -- Sorry CM

Thanks. :-)

Anonymous

I think om nom nom is imitative of the Cookie Monster.

Anonymous

Although to be honest, I didn't get to see much children's television when I was a child.

Anonymous

And anyway, I was only really introduced to om nom nom within the last decade.

Anonymous

It's my perception (though it may not be reality) that it's only been in common parlance for about that long.

Damkerng T.

00:43

I think [ngam-ngam] was from someone eating something in the way that CM does. :-)

Anonymous

But now lots of people say om, nom, nom (whether the first is om or nom is optional), especially girls

Anonymous

(Again, that's just a statement of my perception)

Anonymous

I got a new art tablet yesterday, by the way.

Anonymous

A little one that I can leave hooked up without taking up much space :-)

Damkerng T.

You told us it's cheap, too.

Anonymous

00:44

Yes!

Damkerng T.

Does it work well?

Anonymous

I remember telling you about it when I was going to get it, and then when I got it, but I don't think I described it after I hooked it up.

Anonymous

It does work pretty well! With one caveat. It doesn't work right in Linux currently.

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Anonymous

I can use it on my Windows laptop, though.

Damkerng T.

00:45

Oh, that's good.

Anonymous

Later on I'll see if I can figure out what's wrong in Linux.

Anonymous

I do own Photoshop, anyway, though it's an old version (CS2)

Anonymous

So I can use that on Windows with the tablet

Damkerng T.

That's one downside of Linux. Sometimes the driver doesn't work as expected.

Yay!

Anonymous

Well, in this case the drivers are down to one guy writing something called Digimend in his spare time, I believe

Anonymous

00:46

sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/digimend/…

Anonymous

My Wacom tablet works well in Linux.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

And he's already written support for the tablet I have.

Anonymous

But it's broken with the current kernel.

Anonymous

So it may be I can get it working by trying out an older kernel.

Damkerng T.

00:48

Nice, and not as nice.

Anonymous

(Or, if I'm willing to put the time into it, figuring out the bug in the code and submitting the fix, since it's open source and I have the hardware.)

Anonymous

The tablet is recognized and I can move the cursor around. However!

Damkerng T.

You could try that!

Anonymous

If I press over a certain pressure with the pen, it stops working temporarily.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

I had a small Wacom model too.

Anonymous

00:50

This is my fourth tablet.

Anonymous

My second and third were and are (respectively) Wacom tablets.

Damkerng T.

After using it for a while, half of the tip of the pen was gone!

Anonymous

My second was an Intuos 1.

Anonymous

My third is a Cintiq 21UX, which is great but bulky.

Anonymous

I don't use it nearly as much as I'd like, simply because it's inconvenient--and after I spent so much money on it, too! Sometimes I feel like I make foolish decisions with money.

Damkerng T.

00:51

All of us do that sometimes. :-)

Anonymous

My first was a KoalaPad! :-)

Damkerng T.

Sounds cute!

Anonymous

Since I was only 4 years old, it's safe to say it was actually my dad's tablet.

Anonymous

ravenger.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gallery/html/background/…

Anonymous

But the Intuos was mine.

Damkerng T.

00:52

It looks nice!

Anonymous

I don't know what happened to it. It vanished at some point. I've moved since then, so I'm certain I don't have it anymore. But I have no idea how that came to be true.

Anonymous

Maybe I gave it away and I don't remember anymore.

Damkerng T.

I gave away my iPod already.

Anonymous

I've given away some things. I've lent away others.

Damkerng T.

It was too small for my hands anyway.

Anonymous

00:54

The result is the same. :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

Using iPod feels like using chopsticks wearing gloves.

Anonymous

I've had some things that were too small for my hands.

Anonymous

I have relatively large hands. It's a good thing when it comes to playing guitar or bass :-)

Anonymous

I like Hello Kitty stuff, but a lot of the time it's child-sized, too small for me. I can't eat with tiny Hello Kitty chopsticks.

Damkerng T.

They have Hello Kitty chopsticks too?!

Anonymous

00:58

Oh, yes! They're cute!

Anonymous

When I was old enough to buy my own stuff, I decided to buy my own pair of chopsticks. (Until then, I only ever really had the disposable wooden ones.)

Anonymous

But as a teenager, I was already too big to use the little child size chopsticks. They were so short!

Anonymous

I mean, it was technically possible.

Anonymous

So I went back to the store and found a nice pair of blue chopsticks with a floral design.

Damkerng T.

How did you learn to use chopsticks?

Anonymous

01:00

Going to restaurants, I think.

Damkerng T.

Oh! I see. Necessity, I think. :-)

Anonymous

My parents didn't cook very much food. The food they did cook was generally finger food or the sort you eat with a knife and fork. (Or spoon.)

Anonymous

They were both busy people and not especially gifted in the culinary arts.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps culinary arts are not the most important thing about being parents.

Anonymous

No. I think knowing how to cook is helpful for anyone

Damkerng T.

01:02

Hmm... is arts singular or plural?

Anonymous

But I don't think it's the main thing parents need to learn how to do.

Anonymous

Um. Plural? Gimme a sentence :-)

Damkerng T.

I just edited it. :-)

Anonymous

Ahh

Anonymous

Somehow, I didn't notice :-)

Anonymous

01:05

You could probably say "Liberal arts is a school subject."

Damkerng T.

Oh, so it's singular when it's used as a subject.

Anonymous

Although it would probably be false, since it's not usually a subject. But, you know what I mean.

Anonymous

That's kind of like "physics is"

Damkerng T.

I think it's safer to use arts as plural.

Anonymous

I'm still a habitual comma over-inserter.

Damkerng T.

01:06

Hah!

Anonymous

I've used at least two commas today I decided I didn't like after the fact.

Anonymous

That comma after "But" is bugging me.

Damkerng T.

I thought you were a comma under-inserter.

Anonymous

Me!? Never.

Anonymous

I consciously try to push myself in that direction.

Anonymous

01:07

I edit comments out of my own writing.

Anonymous

But naturally? I, put, commas, everywhere

Anonymous

I, don't, know, what's, wrong, with, me,,,,,,,

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I, see. :-)

Anonymous

By the time I've written an answer on ELL or elsewhere, I've probably gone over it with a red pen once or twice. Or thrice. ~~Or quadrice. Or quintrice.~~

Anonymous

And in that time, I've probably crossed off a comma or five.

Anonymous

01:08

But the way I actually write? Commas, everywhere!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

The trouble is, we don't have a whole lot of absolute rules about commas in English. Most commas you can insert are optional, though sometimes they're grouped as optional pairs (inserting one means you need another)

Anonymous

And we've got fuzzy rules like "Don't use too many optional commas in a small space"

Damkerng T.

Too many is sometimes hard to judge.

Anonymous

Yeah, and each person makes different judgments about it.

Damkerng T.

01:12

BBC also doesn't seem like they like commas very much.

It's almost like they hate commas. :-)

I tried to transcribe one BBC Radio's clip once, and I found that I had to delete so many commas of mine!

Anonymous

Ooh, I want to see before & after!

Anonymous

Oh!!

Anonymous

You could let me try and see if I put the same commas in. Wouldn't that be exciting!?

Damkerng T.

Heehee.

Do you really like to try?

Anonymous

You know what's weird? When I'm proofreading, I do certain things consistently different than when I'm writing.

Anonymous

01:16

Yep, I sure do!

Damkerng T.

finding the transcript...

Anonymous

I do proofread my own writing (which is the hardest sort of proofreading), but I also proofread others'

Anonymous

I find it really exhausting. Proofreading short things isn't a big deal for me, but if you hand me enough dialogue my brain about falls out.

Damkerng T.

> Nearly 400 years earlier, a very different journey had caused a comparable revolution if on a smaller and national scale.

Anonymous

(Side note: is that use of about interesting?)

Anonymous

01:17

Oh, but I can't try if I'm not working from audio!

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. I can find the link, I think. A moment.

bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01g5yy7

The transcript starts from "On Christmas Eve 1968 Apollo 8 ..."

@snailboat It is!

Anonymous

Loading!

Damkerng T.

01:34

Oh, I don't know if we can download this one.

Anonymous

How far should I go?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. In the Podcasts and Downloads page, I need to select "Show all episodes" first. I think any episode would do.

Anonymous

I transcribed two paragraphs.

Anonymous

> On Christmas Eve, 1968, Apollo 8 became the first manned spaceship to circle the moon. And the film footage that NASA sent back changed our perception of the world forever. For there, as the three astronauts rounded the dark side of the moon, was the earth itself, a great globe suspended in the vast darkness of space. It was the first time any human being had seen the whole planet at a single glance, and the world has thought about itself differently ever since.
>
> Nearly four hundred years earlier, a very different journey had caused a comparable revolution, if on a smaller and natio…

Damkerng T.

It's up to you, I think. I transcribed the whole first episode, "England Goes Global".

Anonymous

01:38

Well, I stopped when Flash crashed. :-)

Damkerng T.

Ouch!

Anonymous

Is my punctuation different so far?

Damkerng T.

A lot. :-)

> On Christmas Eve 1968 Apollo 8 became the first manned spaceship to circle the moon, and the film footage that NASA sent back changed our perception of the world forever. For there, as the three astronauts rounded the dark side of the moon, was the earth itself, a great globe suspended in the vast darkness of space. It was the first time any human being had seen the whole planet at a single glance and the world has thought about itself differently ever since.

> Nearly 400 years earlier, a very different journey had caused a comparable revolution if on a smaller, national scale. In 1580 Francis Drake became the first Englishman, and only the second man in history, to sail his ship round the globe. And in consequence, to the English, the whole world suddenly looked different: its limits were known, it could be mapped and plotted, it could be crossed by a single English ship. In 1580 Shakespeare was 16.

(from the BBC's transcript)

Anonymous

Oh, yeah. I could make that first full stop into a comma.

Anonymous

Seriously? No comma before "and the world has thought about itself differently ever since"?

Anonymous

01:40

I really like that comma.

Damkerng T.

I was surprised by that one too!

Anonymous

I hear an and between smaller and national.

Damkerng T.

They replaced one and with a comma, though.

Anonymous

I kind of feel like that and should be a comma instead, but I hear an and.

Damkerng T.

I heard it too.

Anonymous

01:42

I almost always put commas after initial adjuncts like "In 1580"

Anonymous

I have what some would call a heavy style.

Damkerng T.

> 0:38
On Chrismas Eve 1968[?,|] Apollo 8 became the first [man|manned] spaceship to circle the moon, [an'|and] the film footage that NASA sent back changed our perception of the world[?,|] forever.
0:55
For there, as the three astronauts [*run-at|rounded] the dark side of the Moon[*|,] was the Earth itself, a great globe suspended in the vast darkness of space.
1:09
It was the first time any human being had seen the whole planet at a single glance[?.
A|a]nd the world just thought about itself differently ever since.

Anonymous

Ah, I like that colon and the commas.

Anonymous

I wasn't sure what to do there.

Damkerng T.

That was my transcription, including all mishearings and miscommas.

Anonymous

01:43

I originally had it with commas.

Anonymous

I hadn't thought of the colon, though.

Anonymous

Do you think it's wrong to put a comma between Christmas Eve and 1968?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure, but I felt no pause there, so I didn't write a comma.

Anonymous

Although we often reduce and to an' in certain phonetic contexts, writing it an' is suggestive of uneducated speech (one of the uses of eye dialect is to mark a speaker as uneducated with forms like wuz and enuff, even when they reflect standard pronunciation) or childish speech

Anonymous

Oh, but pauses and commas are different things.

Damkerng T.

01:45

nods

If I read it as a text, I think I would insert a comma before 1968.

Anonymous

I wouldn't put "And the world has thought about itself differently ever since" as a separate sentence, but I think you could without being wrong.

Anonymous

Sentence divisions in transcriptions of speech are to some extent arbitrary

Anonymous

(Only to some extent.)

Damkerng T.

Sorry, but I have to leave. (Doing a bit of quick work, and then take some rest.) See you soon, and have a nice day!

Anonymous

Oh, see you later!

Will Hunting

08:12

I just created an account on this site, yay!

Anonymous

08:55

Hello! Welcome to the site!

Damkerng T.

Yippee!

Anonymous

I'm writing a too-long answer.

Anonymous

In the meantime, an existing short answer has gotten a bunch of upvotes.

Damkerng T.

I do that all the time.

Anonymous

My long answers never get a bunch of upvotes when that happens. ;-)

Anonymous

08:58

But it's okay. I'm writing it for fun.

Damkerng T.

My answers don't get many upvotes. Maybe they are too long. :-)

Anonymous

It may be controversial.

Anonymous

Yeah, my long answers usually don't get a lot of upvotes.

Anonymous

But this one has BOLD! And other such markuppings. Marking-ups. Whatever. Those thingies.

Anonymous

I can't go wrong!

Damkerng T.

08:59

What might be controversial, btw?

Your recent answers?

Transcript for