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1:04 AM
23
Q: Most inconsistent and abused notations in maths

fvelWhat are some of the most inconsistent uses of notations and words in maths? For instance, a function $f$: $f^{-1}(x)$ can be an inverse and a preimage and sometimes even $\frac{1}{f(x)}$. $f^2(x)$ can be $(f\circ f)(x)$ and $(f(x))^2$. $f^{(2)}(x)$ on the other hand, is the second derivativ...

I don't know about "abused", but the inconsistency that bothers me the most is sin^2 x versus sin^{-1} x.
First since I studied quantum mechanics I want sin^2 x to mean sin( sin (x) ), but even allowing that it is going to mean (sin x)^2 why the $#(& does sin^{-1} x stand in for arcsin instead of 1/(sin x)?
Gah!
 
1:15 AM
@dmckee Well, actually, that is consistent notation, since the preimage of a function $f$ is usually denoted $f^{-1}$, and $\mathrm{arcsin}$ is nothing else that the preimage of the sine restricted to a representant of the preimage in $[0,2\pi) - \{\pi\}$ or $(-\pi,\pi)$.
That some of these group/ring/field theorists like to denote the inverse of $x$ by $x^{-1}$ is an unfortunate accident :P
 
@ACuriousMind Yes, I could be happy with sin^{-1} x = arcsin x but it ought to mean that sin^2 x = \sin(sin(x)) which no one uses.
 
@dmckee That's true. I fully agree that $\sin^2(x)$ should be $(\sin \circ \sin)(x)$ and not $\sin(x)^2$
Then again, I've never encountered $\sin \circ \sin$ anywhere that I could remember
 
@ACuriousMind Imaginary part of $\exp(\exp(ix))$??
 
@KyleKanos And...that one comes up often in your line of work?!
 
Actually...no
But I've seen it in my Probability course
 
1:28 AM
Yeah, but basically the point is that you're never gonna confuse $\sin^2(x)$ for $\sin(\sin(x))$ because if you mean that, you're gonna write it
It's still somewhat...inelegant, though
 
I'd come up with a new definition, like $\rm ssin(x) = \sin(\sin(x))$
 
$\mathrm{ssin}$ just looks and sounds like a snake doing trigonometry
 
Snake's cannot do math though
They can't read
 
The heir of Slytherin might disagree
 
I'm pretty sure he got dead
 
1:39 AM
@KyleKanos I'm not sure I understand that response...
 
The Heir of Slytherin was killed in HP7 (or, if you prefer, movie 8), so he can't disagree
 
I need to read less fanfiction, evidently :D
I actually forgot that Voldemort is the canon Heir of Slytherin
 
Who is the Heir in not-canon?
 
Well..e.g. HPMOR seems to strongly imply that Harry himself is the heir.
And it is not that far-fetched, with him being a parselmouth
 
Well he was parseltongue because Voldy left some of his soul in Harry
Once Voldy killed that bit of the soul, Harry lost his parseltongue
 
1:49 AM
Yeah, you're right
 
I usually don't read fan fiction because it usually isn't good....this HPMOR any good? Looks to mostly be a giant propaganda for philosophy
(given the chapter titles)
 
@KyleKanos It's...weird
And definitely an author tract for the guy writing it
But it is a very interesting take on how someone with a scientific education would approach a magic world
 
I'd likely end up either in St Mungo's or Azkaban
St Mungo's because of the impossibility of doing magic physically, but doing it
Azkaban because I'd try using those powers to rule the world
 
@KyleKanos Soo...you'd only end up there if you failed ;)
 
Right
Yeah, that probably should be "I'd try using those powers..."
And fixed
 
1:58 AM
I think ruling the world would be...distracting
As long as other people leave me alone, I've no desire to tell them what to do
 
I prefer things to be run my way than most any other way
 
Don't we all? :P At least, that's what "my way" means - the way I prefer things to be run, right? ;)
 
 
2 hours later…
3:56 AM
Comment not posted (because it wouldn't have been very constructive) but which I really need to get off my chest:
> Orbital not orbit. State not position&velocity. Wave equation not equation of motion.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:42 AM
Asking for future reference: What should be done when you come across this kind of an answer while reviewing first posts?
I'm not able to convince myself that this doesn't warrant a flag (convert to comment, not enough in it to be an answer).
 
 
2 hours later…
8:19 AM
@New_new_newbie it never really hurts to flag if you're not sure, but personally I consider it an answer, just not a good one. After all, the question is "What's the difference between frequency domain and time domain spectra?" and it's hard to argue that "There are no differences" doesn't answer that question.
On another note: if the person who flagged a bunch of comments using the custom message "Just noise" happens to check in here, we have standard flag reasons including "obsolete" and "too chatty" that work for most of those kinds of comments. It's not a big deal, but it's nice to use the standard reasons when you can.
2
 
9:18 AM
@DavidZ Thanks for the clarification.
 
10:11 AM
@ACuriousMind @KyleKanos @dmckee Richard Feynman in his autobiography, Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman mentions he also disagreed with the notation, and that it seemed inconsistent to him. In high school, he had his own notation, which was rather bizarre. If I remember correctly, he used some sort of uppercase sigma, elongated.
 
 
4 hours later…
2:40 PM
@JamalS I have seen some books use $\sin\,x$ for the sine function, which I think can be vague if you have multiple components (i.e., does $\sin\,xt$ mean $\sin(xt)$ or does it mean $\sin(x)\cdot t$?)
But creating your own new notation? Seems a bit extreme
Which, I suppose is classic Feynman
The actual quote, is: While I was doing all this trigonometry, I didn't like the symbols for sine, cosine, tangent, and so on. To me, "sin f" looked like s times i times n times f! So I invented another symbol, like a square root sign, that was a sigma with a long arm sticking out of it, and I put the f underneath.
 
3:12 PM
When a firework throws at angle $\theta$ with a velocity $v_0$ and explodes at the peak point, does each fragment reach the ground at the same time?
 
@Whoiscrazyfirst Imagine that the separated pieces move off in the 4 cardinal directions
Draw that scenario out right quick and you should have your answer
 
Jim
better thought. Imagine that one piece explodes upwards and another explodes downwards
 
I am trying...
 
 
2 hours later…
5:38 PM
^lmao
 
@Kabir - really?
please exercise better discretion in word choice. You may not mean in offensively, but terms with a strong history of abuse and offense should be avoided on SE, including chat
 
I second that statement (although I think Kabir didn't mean to be offensive).
 
@Danu yeah, I'd assume the same thing
unfortunately intent and what happens don't always line up as much as we'd like :/
2
I have a feeling the world would be a far happier place if it did
 
@AJHenderson I also agree with that
 
 
1 hour later…
Jim
7:11 PM
so the coffee cup question has a bounty now....
apparently none of the answers draw from credible-enough sources
 
Yeah. Dude who offered popped his head in here above
(The one with (removed))
 
Jim
it's his rep, so I'm not going to judge. But I thought the existing answers were credible enough
 
I concur
 
I fail to see how it could get any more credible than "I just did the experiment", which is what is already there
 
It wasn't published, duh?
 
Jim
7:17 PM
"I just did the experiment in front of you in person" is slightly more credible
 
Let me replicate your experiment for myself might be credible as well
 
 
1 hour later…
8:22 PM
I did the experiment N times and recorded it for you I guess would be more credible :)
 
8:40 PM
@Phonon what a game!
@KyleKanos He seemed to be trolling
 
I'm not entirely convinced
 
Did you see the message before it was removed?
 
Yes I did
I flagged it too
Hi, I'm leaving Physics-SE, because it sucks. My account will be deleted in 8 hours. :D
 
Hmm, that's lame.
definitely trolling
 
He will be sorely missed.
 
8:43 PM
man, I'm getting real tired of my master's program
I'm spending about 60 hours a week working/attending lectures :\
 
That's a lot
 
I know
it's taking its toll on my morale :P
getting home at 8 PM without having had dinner (or lunch (or breakfast))) is pretty bleh
 
Are you doing that much because it is really necessary?
 
Yeah, I have a moderately big problem with the amount of math assumed as background
I had taken literally 0 rigorous math courses before this academic year.
...and a mathematical physics MSc doesn't go light on the math, surprisingly
 
You've chosen to jump straight into the deep end to learn to swim, it seems
 
8:48 PM
Well you'll be able to do it
So stop worrying about it
 
I'm not so sure. I may have to drop a course (or just fail an exam)
 
I said stop worrying!
 
You're having none of it today, are you?
 
@Danu That's not the end of the world, is it? Better drop one and feel less stressed than spend the next half year continually exhausted
 
I'll have no back-talk today!
Or else you get the Ruler on the Wrist!
 
8:51 PM
@ACuriousMind It's not quite so simple, a lot of planning for the next years depends on it
 
Ah well, life is what happens while you are making other plans
 
Hey, that was Jigsaw!
 
Heh. Haven't watched The Wire yet, I must say. But the guy's right ;)
 
@KyleKanos Wait.. what?!
@ACuriousMind Damn, get on it. 10/10 would erase memory to enjoy again
 
8:57 PM
The guy who played the cop played Jigsaw from the 2nd Punisher movie
 
McNulty? hah
 
McNulty's not his name
Something West
(and not Mae West)
 
Yeah, he's McNulty in The Wire.
 
@Danu Haha...yes, it's on my continually expanding list of things to watch. When it comes to series, I always lag a few years behind pop culture, dunno why, exactly
 
But I've never seen The Wire, so he's Jigsaw
 
8:59 PM
@KyleKanos You're really in a fighting mood today. Is something up?
 
I AM NOT IN A FIGHTING MOOOD
STOP SAYING THAT
:D
I dunno
 
Damn, you sound like an angry girlfriend ;)
 
Haha
I really want to say, "Am not!" but you'll just use that as an excuse to say I'm fighting you
So I'm totally not going to say that
 
@KyleKanos So, if you're not gonna say that you're not in a fighting mood, doesn't that also mean you're in a fighting mood?
There's really no way out for you ;)
 
@KyleKanos are you my ex?!
 
9:04 PM
Hey look, a bird!
 
@KyleKanos Definitely my ex
 
Well, unless your ex was a man, I think not
And even then, I think not since I'm like 8 years older than you
And that I've been married for 6 of those 8 years and dating her the other 2
 
@KyleKanos Everything checks out
 
9:10 PM
Lol
 
The things you learn on SE...
 
9:26 PM
Once you run out of close votes for the day you have to skip a lot of the other review items. It seems like a somewhat broken system to present items for review when not all of the possible responses are available.
 
@BrandonEnright @ACuriousMind said this same thing yesterday, or the day before
and I agree
maybe we can post to the mother meta?
 
@Danu 'Twas Thursday
And yes, this keeps bugging me
 
16
Q: Review of "Low Quality Posts" when out of close votes

edorianhttp://stackoverflow.com/review-beta/low-quality-posts/ shows low quality questions and answers. When out of close votes I'm not sure what to do with the questions. I can still handle the answers fine as there are no limits on the actions to I can take. But for questions one of the actions (clo...

Answer is basically: Leave a comment suggesting that it should be closed
 
Yeah, but leaving a comment does not count as a review action in the LQ queue
 
Am I a bad reviewer for having the knee-jerk reaction 'but that's too much work!'?
 
9:31 PM
You still have to choose Looks OK or Edit - and none of these apply when you want to close it
 
Isn't there a skip option?
 
@KyleKanos But that doesn't count as reviewed, leaving the post in the queue
(also, it doesn't count towards the badges :P )
 
Ah yes.
I guess I wasn't quite considering the fact that there are some badge collectors amongst us
 
At least on Physics.SE "Skip" is a poor option for some of the queues. Almost no one looks at the "First Posts" queue and that's one of the main ways we get new homework questions into the close votes queue. I still try to edit / comment / downvote but I really don't like saying "I'm Done" when I know the question should be closed but I can't do anything to get it into the queue.
It would be nice if when you ran out of close votes you could instead flag for closure.
2
 
I look at the First Post queue
It's a great one to be perusing
 
9:43 PM
@KyleKanos So is @New_new_newbie lately but we still don't have anywhere near a critical mass of people doing the immediate cleanup work needed. When we have crap on the front page it just attracts more crap.
 
@BrandonEnright I look at the queues indiscriminately
...which means not all too often :P
 
@Danu It wouldn't surprise me if most of the people in this chat are much more active reviewers than the average user on the site. Many of our quality issues on the site stem from our very low review participation and our very high influx of new users.
 
Probably true
 
I wish we could somehow poll everyone about their activity
Though, we are able to see the history of reviews
 
I thought Physics.SE was unique in this low review participation but I just looked at Math.SE and I think it's even worse there. They get a lot more questions than we do and it looks like many of their users stop reviewing when they get the gold badge for reviews.
All of their active reviewers are have run out of close votes for the day and there are quite a few questions still in the close queue for the day.
 
9:52 PM
@BrandonEnright Badge hunters are ubiquitous, I guess. Lol.
I think our SE is really good in terms of moderation and general having-your-sh*t-together-ness
 
@Danu Perhaps. I'm not active in any other SEs so I have nothing to compare to. I don't think we have serious quality issues or anything like that. I just don't like that I have to either stop contributing or can't contribute at the level I think is needed simply because of close votes.
 
I wish close votes scaled with rep too
Flags scale, why not close votes?
Especially on smaller sites like Physics (as opposed to SO
Crap...gotta run
Later
 
@KyleKanos definitely agree on this
but only the smaller ones, indeed
 
10:15 PM
@Danu yeah so long :D
@Danu the match has had all sorts of games so far :D
@Danu tomorrow game or rest day?
 
2 games, rest, 2 games, rest, etc
 
@ACuriousMind updated your sc2 finally or what?^^
Anand with white, gonna be a good game
 
@Phonon ...what are you referring to? (And, no, I haven't^^)
 
@ACuriousMind lol :p
@ACuriousMind do it! and we'll play
 
@Phonon You are...persistent ;) I think I'll get around to it this weekend, but for now, I've got Young tableaus to draw for tomorrow :P
 
10:29 PM
@ACuriousMind Yesss! ok ok :DD
didn't know there is such a thing called Schubert calculus! :O
 
@Phonon Where did you stumble upon that?
 
@ACuriousMind it is going to be the last thing we do this semester at the end of the theoretical solid state physics course
@ACuriousMind right now it's just group theory
 
"Just" group theory ;)
 
:)
any specific course you're really starting to like this sem?
 
@Phonon Unfortunately, not really :/
 
10:40 PM
@ACuriousMind sigh... how come? (
 
I don't know, I don't like the approach my algebra prof takes to geometry (he always talks about the stuff he did last semester and how it is related to what we do now, but I took that course the year before, and we were far more into general nonsense than he is)
String theory is surprisingly mundane, just quantizing this and calculating that (probably because the lecturer assumes basically no previous knowledge)
And well, the other stuff is similar - I just keep hearing what I already (partially) know, or I find it not all that interesting
And I really miss my lecturers from the last semester. Well, it can't always be that brilliant, I guess
At least I'm not the one working 60 hours a week :P
 
yeah man, I really see your point, it is indeed a pity!
Hopefully already by next semester things will starting changing a bit.
I mean you seem like the kinda guy, who'd fit perfectly in field like GR or QFT QM etc (based on some of your SE posts)
so maybe eventually you will find your way back to the subjects you're most interested in
 
@Phonon Well, I thought I'd be taking the stuff I'm interested in this semester :D
I'll see how it all...evolves
 
@ACuriousMind :( well, just try to pass the courses though! indeed, will just have to see how it pans out later on
 
Ah, well, it's not as if I actively dislike what I'm doing right now - it's just not the best semester so far
 
10:53 PM
all the more reason to add sth as fun as sc2 to your weekly plannings :DDD
 
@Phonon Hehe...maybe you're right and I have left my trusty Protoss alone for too long ;)
 
@ACuriousMind there we go! now we're talking :D that's what I like
@ACuriousMind you don't come across as a cheesy player to me, so I reckon we will have a lot of fun playing together!
 
@Phonon I'll have to see how many tricks from my sleeves I remember, but cheese was never what I did (in part because I'm terrible at executing it)
 
@ACuriousMind :) good, I just play random these days, 2v2s with friends...just solely for the fun of it, so don't worry we'll mostly be trolling and having fun with ladder games^^
@ACuriousMind have you played since the patch they added the mothership core?
@ACuriousMind shifted all the opening builds of toss, now they all double gas at 15, and start pressuring with well timed 2-stalker+core, basically every game, it is a very nice opener.
 
Uhh...no, I don't think I've seen that
 
11:00 PM
gg
 
It's really been a while :D
 
it's ok, I'll be there for you :D
 
@Phonon: I just realized that you are generally talking about HotS - I never bought the expansion
 
11:13 PM
@ACuriousMind LOL hahaha
@ACuriousMind will you consider buying it then :D?
 
god DAMNIT, one factor of 2 is messing up my calculation
damn you, Thomas-Fermi functional
jfadjf;lsdajf
 
quick question: is it discouraged to post "should X post be deleted" in meta?
 
yes
IMO
 
okiedoke
 
I'd first try 1) asking here 2) flagging and see what happens
but it's not really wrong to post about it in meta either
I'd just consider it a bit unnecessary
 
11:18 PM
sure - but in my head, there's 'wrong' and then there's, y'know... inappropriate
or unnecessary, like you said
i'm inclined to delete my most recent question
 
@Danu you sound like you could use a glass of 20 y.o. Scotch!
 
because the answer is super obvious
yes! indeed!
 
@Phonon Damn, that's a great idea. Time for some Lagavulin.
I'm starting to understand all these people asking check-my-work questions, all of a sudden :(
anyhow, I need to sleep
8 AM, 8 AM, time to learn
:(
 
@Danu rough calculation? i've never had luck bringing scotch into the picture, although i had an advisor who swore by the "beer" method for getting a paper written
 
@Danu :DD
@Danu Jameson's more my speed!
@Danu I forgot you're in germany at the moment:D, don't miss out on them beers man, they've got the best of em!
 
11:29 PM
@higgy There's just a factor 2 that I cannot seem to get rid of
@Phonon That's a beginners whisky! Yes, I'm a snob ;)
 
@Danu distinguishable particles?
 
@Danu that's what I can afford :((((((
 
@higgy Proving that the minimizer of the Thomas-Fermi functional gives rise to neutral atoms.
 
@Danu can't help you there, but surely a factor of two means you've got it mostly right - maybe some rest will help
 
The method has to be correct, everything is too nice not to be
but there's just one term that needs a factor 1/2 to cancel (or the other one a factor 2)
 

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