last day (16 days later) » 

7:10 AM
@Secret hi
@Secret can i talk to you about something?(math related)
 
Is it related to set theory? if not we can talk somewhere else
 
I think it is
 
ok then, shoot
(I mean, ask)
 
So I want to really learn QM, and master it. I wanted to do it in a bit of a different way, by asking questions and stating what i think is going on and havuning a conversation where I will be corrected. shall i start, from the very basics? The hilbert space
so tell me where I am wrong in the line of thinking
I want to think it then formalize it with your help, as step one
ok for the thinking
part
So it is a space, infinitely large. In some sense it is like a euclidean space but with $x_1 to x _{infinity}$, but the length must be less than infinity. Is this true?
@Secret still there?
 
It depends on what hilbert space it is, it can be countably infinite or uncountably infinite
 
7:17 AM
Ok so let me ponder that for a second
let me back up
so to count is to be able map to integers, correct?
 
Yes, countable means biject with the integers.

All hilbert spaces have a hilbert basis, which is a countable linear combination of vectors such that the space generated by this basis is dense in the hilbert space but not necessary complete
 
So let me think of a set, say $A$ , if I can map all of the elements in A to say $Z$, the set of integers then A is countable
let me think about the not necessarily complete part for a second
let me ask a question by way of example
 
Actually I made a small mistake. Some hilbert spaces don't have a countable hilbert basis (these are known as non separable hilbert spaces), and also orthonormal is necessary for something to be a hilbert basis
 
So what you mean by complete , say in the case of $R$ is that there are no missing points or gaps yes?
 
Yes, roughly speaking, completeness means no missing points. More rigorously, any bounded sequence must converge to some element in the space
 
7:25 AM
aha
so good,
Ok , so now armed with a schematic of a hilbert space, let me proceed
I want to explore the concept of a projection
Perhaps i can restrict to a finite dimensional vector space to look at this concept first
Let me think for a second
 
Wait a sec when I move all those messages here
 
ok
 
30 messages moved from Mathworks (Not the main chat!)
 
ok so given some vectors $\vec{A}$ and $\vec{B}$, we can do a projection
So let me think this through
One can capture a unit of $\vec{A}$ or $\vec{B}$ and scale it in the direction of the other
There is a scalar and a vector projection
Is similar reasoning the basis of the concept of a projection in QM?
 
It is. Given a hilbert basis $\{\lvert e_i\rangle\}$, it is orthonormal, therefore for any ket $\lvert x \rangle$, the inner product $\langle x\vert e_i\rangle = x_i$ are the ith components of $\lvert x \rangle$
 
7:39 AM
aha good
ok so let me think about an amplitude
Let me back up
What is a measurable function? Let me think
ok let me think about a measurable space
so let us start somewhere
I want to begin by trying to grasp a sigma algebra
So I can begin with two sets
let me think
ok so given a set $A$
there exist a set K such that K is the union of all subsets of A
hmm, but what union are we creating here let me ponder
ok so K is the sigma algebra?
is this true
Essentially a set of all subsets of a set
Now one can define a measure
So the measure maps each subset of $A$ to a real number, x an element of $R$
@Secret how does this look so far?
ok so now let me look think about the amplitude
 
7:56 AM
Other then "the measure maps each subset of A to a real number, x an element of R" I don't know enough of sigma algebra to check the rest
 
so I need to think about a measurable function
ok
hmm
so the set , and its measure is a measurable space
@Secret what is a measurable function?
 
That I am not terribly sure. Measure theory is one area I am not good at and I already made many mistakes previously from irrationals to cantor sets and so on
You will be better off asking 0celo or acuriousmind about measure theory stuff
 
ok I will ask them tomorrow,
in the mean time, can you help me think through scattering in quantum mechanics
 
uh, isn't scattering QFT stuff?
 
oh, so there is also scattering in quantum mechanics
May be we can go over perhaps that pdf
perhaps we can first review classical scattering
 
 
1 hour later…
9:17 AM
I am afraid I am not familiar with classical scattering also. Might need to study it later...
 
 
12 hours later…
9:08 PM
oh dear
 
hey @enumaris
all caught up?
 
Hello
not really lol
My QFT knowledge is kind of lacking
QFT never really clicked with me
like standard QM or GR
 
Don't worry we will only do standard QM
no QFT
I was going to think about the probability amplitude
in QM
I started attempting to figure out what it was yesterday. So in it's most basic form. It is an integral
I wanted to understand the measure
then understand the wave function,
 
ok
 
then the limits and how you impose them
May be I should begin with $|{\psi}|^2$
 
9:13 PM
alrighty
 
crap
I meant mod squared
 
Alright
 
Let me think about what this means
so this at the most basic level $\psi^* \psi$
 
if you are using the star to mean complex conjugate rather than multiply, then yes
 
Yes indeed by this we mean we flip the sign of the plus to a minus or vise versa for the other
 
9:18 PM
flip the sign of the imaginary part
i.e. $(a+bi)^* = a-bi$
 
yes, as we are in $C$
or perhaps represent this as $e^q$ or a sum of trig pairs
 
what?
 
let me explain
The standard terminology is representing a complex number in polar form
for example
let $z$ an element of $C$ be $a + bi$
Then, also $a =( rcos \theta)$ , and $b = (r sin \theta)$
and something similar for with $e$
Ok one can now turn to the $d{\mu}(x)$
 
ok
 
What is the integral $\int_x |\psi (x)|^2 d {\mu}(x) $
 
9:27 PM
You can just stick to standard Riemann integrals, there's no need for Lebesgue integration in this problem.
also, you've overloaded your use of $x$
if we work in 1-dimensions, then $P=\int_a^b |\psi(x)|^2 dx$ is interpreted to be the probability of finding the particle represented by wave function $\psi$ within the interval $[a,b]$
(assuming we've normalized $\psi$)
 
So normalisation guarantees that the amplitude, $A$ is less than or equal to one
I would guess this works the same way as in probability
We add up all the possibilities , and they should be one
 
Yes
It guarantees in fact that the amplitude integrates to 1
the amplitude is the probability density
 
nice
 
Normalization, in 1-D looks like: $\int_{-\infty}^\infty |\psi(x)|^2 dx = 1$
 
aha off course
So let me think about psi again
So superposition is performing a linear combination right
 
9:36 PM
yeah
 
so $N \sum \psi_{i}$
 
if you want to keep the normalization, you need to also include a normalization factor
 
so essentially scaling by $N$
 
Usually you'll see a superposition of $N$ states expressed as: $\phi = \Sigma_{i=1}^{N}\frac{1}{\sqrt{N}}\psi_i$
 
ah yes my bad
Now let us try to entangle
I vaguely recall that entangled states are non-product states
Does this mean, to cook up an entangled state, one looks for combinations of states that can not be obtained by a matrix multiplication
so for example
${a \otimes b} - {b \otimes a} $
hmm let me think
What is a simple entangled pair
@enumaris still there?
btw I wrote the example wrong
@enumaris are going to be back? lol
@0celo7 hi
@Blue hi
@0celo7 come help me think
 
10:03 PM
sorry I went to eat lunch lol
 
oh hehe
awesome
you're back
 
An entangled state is not a product state in any basis
I can't recall how to make sure this is the case
It's been a long time since I've dealt with entanglement
 
ok , hmm let me now try to think about what spin is in qm
Perhaps I should ponder angular momentum first
may be classical angular momentum first
so it is momentum analogue for a spinning body
$L = I \omega$
$I$ is our moment of intertia
but what is a moment of intertia?
I know the formula, but what is it?
@enumaris what is a moment of inertia
@enumaris what is spin in quantum mechanics?
 
o.o
The moment of inertia is a measure of the distribution of mass in a system. Specifically how it's distributed with respect to a central axis of rotation.
The larger the moment of inertia, the harder it is to get that system spinning. In the real world, that corresponds to more mass being distributed farther away from the central axis.
Spin is a very deep quantum mechanical concept and I'm not prepared to give a clear definition lol.
 
10:18 PM
aha lolz at spin hehe
ok ok
hehe
hmm spin .. . .
so it is definitely not quantized angular momentum
 
here to play
 
woohoooo, let's play hehe
ok so what is spin in QM?
 
this game is boring
 
@goodnight alright, lets think about spin statistics theorem, although it would be much more fun if we knew what spin was to some rudimentary degree of sophistication
lol
@enumaris what is a spin quantum number (not spin lol)
 
spin is the thing that electrons do which makes them dizzy and that's why qm is weird and probabilistic.
but that's also what makes it beautiful
 
10:29 PM
lolz hehe
hmm, I am going to do some deep digging into QM spin
 
I can only describe a spin as a fundamental property of particles
it is related to angular momentum
and the spin quantum number describes the spin-state of the particle
The theoretical existence of spin, AFAIK, can not be shown in QM only.
For QM, the existence of spin is more of a experimental fact
 
Stern-Gerlach?
 
what about it?
 
he's asking if that's the experiment that reveals that spin exists.
which you are referring to
 
This was the experiment that demonstrated spin ?
 
10:37 PM
Oh, afaik, yes
I don't really know the experimental history of QM as well as I should lol
 
lol, it's ok man, I am sure nobody knows QM History
So, we take spin as a brute fact and then build on it
 
@Cows as a qm historian in an alternate universe i'm deeply offended
 
ooh sry had no idea hehe
 
it's alright nobody likes that version of me anyway
he's perpetually unemployed
 
lol hehe
let me now try to think through spin statistics
 
10:43 PM
Stern gerlach is indeed the first experiment that demonstrate the existence of spin as an extra degree of freedom in a quantum system. I don't recall other details except some of the experiment set up and results. But since our focus here seemed to be mathematical formulation, we can safely ignore the experiment details until later
Also I don't know the derivation of the spin statistic theorem, though I know it's consequences
 
Not that many people know the derivation of the spin-statistics theorem
it's like one of those things where if you're curious you go try to read it, but actually everyone just uses the results
 
So let us restrict ourselves to two particles
$a$, and $b$
We would claim that they are identical
if you can't tell them apart
Now a wave function can be constructed $\psi (a,b)$
 
ok
 
It's amplitude would involve $|{\psi(a,b)}|^2$
 
usually you might write that as $\psi(x_a,x_b)$ though
uhhh
 
10:49 PM
ah ok
but let me work backwords
starting with the amplitude
 
amplitude of what though
If you have two particles, what property of those two particles are you interested in? Their position?
 
sorry mixing words
so we can work in position or momentum space
Working from mod squared backwards, it seems to me that taking a square root, me become forced to accout for all possible solutions and thus
$e^{i \alpha } \psi( (x_a , x_b))$
using your notation
then
one can ponder the effect of exchange
$\psi(x_a, x_b) =(+,-) \psi( x_b, x_a)$
bosons and fermions
 
o.o
 
@yay or ney?
 
uhhhh
 
10:58 PM
. . hehe
 
yeah, roughly right? o.O
It's hard to tell where you're going so it's hard to answer a bunch of seemingly unrelated questions
 
cool
Let me go back to spin, let me think
So spin quantum numbers.
Provided these are given, what kinds of algebras can we do with them? and how do we get here, let me attempt to forge a path
 
o.o
spin quantum number is usually just +1/2 or -1/2
or +1 vs -1
for composite particles, you can have higher numbers
 
aha hmm
 
or 0
can't forget the particles without spin
 
11:11 PM
so there is a spin algebra, of commutation relations, and ladder operators
what is the most natural way to arrive at this?
 
huh...
it feels like you're mixing three different things together
 
ok let me back up
So i want to zero in on spin algebra
 
what's a spin algebra?
 
ok let me try to say something about this
so it is an algebra in the math sense of the word, this means
my spins are going to be a vector space,
and i get to do some operation over it
this is what i think it is, but at a very rudimentary level
 
uhhhh
 
11:20 PM
i have a feeling i have said something very wrong lol
 
I don't think you need an algebra to represent spins? You can represent them as vectors.
 
certainly
 
If you want to say the space of spins is an algebra, you'd have to define some way to multiply spins together, what's that mean?
 
yes, that is what I meant
I feel like a should try to solve the quantum harmonic, and see what happens before I take the next step. You will walk me through stating and solving this right? hehe
I want to do this so that i can use some raising and lowering operator trick later
I know it looks like we are navigating blindly but I promise there is purpose to this :D
Ok let me try to think of the harmonic oscillator with no damping
So this is a spring
 
uhhh ok
 
11:29 PM
thus classically this should be $\frac{1}{2} k x^2$
 
Yeah, but it's better to work with the potential energies
oh sorry, that is the potential energy
lol
 
hehe no worries,
I can reexpress it
as
 
You should start by setting up what problem you are trying to solve
 
ok
 
What's the fundamental equation you're solving for?
 
11:32 PM
So I want to solve $H \psi = E \psi$
actually hang on let me think
 
That's the time independent Schroedinger's equation
you've skipped one step, but it's ok if you understand what was the step you skipped lol
 
lol
ok so I need to define $H$
 
Do you know what step you skipped?
 
Well let me see
 
Because if you don't know what step that is, solving this equation $H\psi = E\psi$ doesn't get you anywhere other than saying you solved a math problem
 
11:34 PM
hmm ok let me think
 
The hint is in my description of what that equation is
lol
 
i want to say it but i think what i am about to say might be wrong
 
feel free to say it lol
 
It is supposed to not explicitly depend on time, but i can't quite articulate beyond that
the wave function i.e
 
Yea something like that
the equation that you want to solve is the Schroedinger's equation $H\Psi = i\hbar \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \Psi $
 
11:39 PM
right so
 
The solutions to this equation are $\Psi(x,t)$ which gives you a dynamical variable.
We do separation of variables in the case that $H \neq H(t)$, i.e. the Hamiltonian is time-independent.
 
huh
you know, this makes sense
 
And we retrieve the Time-independent Schroedinger's equation $H\psi=E\psi$, this gives us a static solution $\psi(x)$ which is time independent. In order to go back to the full solution, we append a $e^{iEt}$ factor like so: $\Psi(x,t) = \Sigma_n a_n \psi_n(x)e^{iE_n t}$
 
omg i now see
 
sorry, I was missing a factor at the end there
 
11:44 PM
sorry what is the $a_n$ ?
normalization?
 
So, actually when we solve a problem, what are we doing? We are given an initial wave function $\Psi(x,t_0)$ and it evolves according to the (time dependent) Schroedinger's equation. How do we figure out this evolution? We solve the time-independent Schroedinger's equation for a set of energy eigenstates $\psi_n(x)$
 
so the full solution is actually the evolution through all time steps?
hmm this is quite interesting
 
According to the spectral theorem, the energy eigenstates will be $complete$ in that any (smooth) function $\Psi(x,t_0)$ can be expressed as a superposition of the eigenstates: $\Psi(x,t_0) = \Sigma_n a_n \psi_n$
 
aha
 
We know how eigenstates evolve in time, it's trivial $\psi_n(x,t) = \psi_n(x)e^{iE_nt}$
So the actual state $\Psi(x,t_0)$ will evolve in time like the equation I gave above.
 
11:50 PM
wow!
 
$\Psi(x,t) = \Sigma_n a_n\psi_n(x)e^{iE_nt}$
That's the full solution
 
This is amazing!
 
Given any $\Psi(x,t_0)$ we first express it in terms of the eigenstates $\psi_n$ by figuring out the expansion coefficients $a_n$, and then the time evolution is trivial.
 
this is the first time i have actually understood what is going on
 
XD
So, that was the step you skipped over
you went right into trying to solve for $\psi_n$
But without understanding these skipped steps, it will be hard to understand what in the heck you are doing with the $\psi_n$ anyways...
 
11:52 PM
yes
wow
ok i am so excited lol. I am going to grab some food and head for a celebratory run. I will be back again tomorrow :D
 
But this is why we learn in a nice order, it's really hard to learn when you go through concepts in a haphazard manner
Alright XD
Have fun~
 
Yes I could not agree more :D
 
There's one last detail, which is "given $\Psi(x,t_0)$ and $\psi_n(x)$ how do we find the expansion coefficients $a_n$? The answer to this is by exploiting the $orthogonality$ and normalization of eigenfunctions, i.e. that $\int_{-\infty}^{\infty} \psi_n(x)\psi_m(x) dx = \delta_{nm}$ where $\delta_{nm}$ is the Kronecker delta that equals 1 when n=m and 0 when n != m.
 

  last day (16 days later) »