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9:36 AM
Hey guys ever since I posted some concerns about my post (it seems they have become bigger) ... math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/28005/… .... Relevant post: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2625467/… .... What can I do in this situation?
sorry if this is not the relevant chatroom ... but I'm assuming it's done due to inadequacy of the question
 
9:48 AM
@user21820 ... as a more experienced user any thoughts?
 
@MoreAnonymous I agree with Misha's answer to your meta question that as stated your question is meaningless or ill-defined, because a finite-memory computer definitely cannot generate in any reasonable sense the sequence of prime numbers.
@MoreAnonymous: I also recommend that you study logic proper.
In particular, you say:
> I think intuitively I feel like my algorithm takes a sequence which has some "sense" behind it and creates a pattern/fractal out of it
Frankly speaking, this makes completely no sense.
By the way, I'm not speaking as a "more experienced user" in my above comments, but speaking from a perspective based on logic and computer science. If you have a contractive mapping, iterating it on any initial point will result in a sequence tending to some fixed point. This does not at all suggest that the initial point was special. Same with iterating your process on any initial sequence; whether the result has a 'pattern' or not does not imply the original had a 'pattern'.
 
10:12 AM
@user21820 umm ... would it be fair to say that the algorithm generates patterns for a deterministic process rather than a random process?
I was thinking of a random process as: a sequence of random variables whose outcomes do not follow a deterministic pattern, but follow an evolution described by probability distributions.
 
@MoreAnonymous That's nonsense.
 
why?
and which part?
 
@MoreAnonymous: Let's move this to a separate room, as it's not on-topic here.
15 messages moved from CRUDE
 
I c ... thanks
 
@MoreAnonymous As explained above, you observing a pattern when you do X to Y does not imply that Y is special at all.
It could be that X is special, or it could be that you are just seeking to find a pattern even if there is none.
Don't underestimate that possibility.
The only way to avoid it is to have 100% precise mathematical statements, which your post does not have, for the reason I stated here.
 
10:26 AM
hmmm ... i c ... but either way this is math ... we shd b able to prove or disprove it ...
 
I already stated that your question is ill-defined or meaningless. Which part of that do you not get?
 
I feel this is going in circles ... But u said, "you observing a pattern when you do X to Y does not imply that Y is special at all.
It could be that X is special, or it could be that you are just seeking to find a pattern even if there is none.
Don't underestimate that possibility."
We should be able to atleast find a counterexample if that is true
 
All that is irrelevant if your question does not even make sense. I am not going in circles. But you seem to be...
At least, you have to acknowledge that finite-memory machines cannot generate the prime numbers.
 
agreed
 
Now if you relax your question to be about Turing machines (not finite-memory machines), the answer to your question would be the mundane fact that many processes are not invertible and will 'collapse' many different inputs to the same output.
 
10:31 AM
I see
 
In particular, you use the absolute function repeatedly in every alternate step.
 
That should alert you to the possibility that your process may 'collapse' many different sequences to the same result.
 
hmmm
Im still confused though ... wont a purely random infinte sequence be (highly) unlikely of following any of these pattern sequences?
 
No, because you repeat your process unboundedly many times, and only look at the first few items in each sequence produced.
 
10:37 AM
yea ... but it pursists and that whats bothering me
it pursists for about the first 1000 lines atleast
@user21820
 
I don't see why it should bother you. Have you read the following post?
145
Q: Conjectures that have been disproved with extremely large counterexamples?

Justin L.I just came back from my Number Theory course, and during the lecture there was mention of the Collatz Conjecture. I'm sure that everyone here is familiar with it; it describes an operation on a natural number -- n/2 if it is even, 3n+1 if it is odd. The conjecture states that if this operation...

In particular, look at this answer:
28
A: Conjectures that have been disproved with extremely large counterexamples?

Yuriy SIn this paper http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0602498 a sequence of integers is proposed, which, when started with $1$ begins like this: $$1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 2, \dots$$ This is also the sequence A090822 at OEIS. The description there is somewhat better: Gijswijt...

> Curiously, this paper explicitly states that the authors initially thought that no number greater than 4 appears in the sequence.
This is obviously an instance of what I said earlier, namely finding patterns when there may be none.
 
hmmm ... i c ...
so if it was 10,000 lines u'd say im onto something?
needles to say these conjectures were investigated
until a counter example was found
also I one tries a simple sequence like fibinacci a different pattern appears
 
@MoreAnonymous I would still be incredibly unconvinced. The example I pointed you to had a counter-example at iteration 10^(10^28)...
@MoreAnonymous Different 'pattern' just means that your process does not have a single 'fixed-point', not that there is much information in the resulting sequence pertaining to the original.
 
I dunno ... I'm still unconvinced until I see a counterexample I guess ...
I think cause ive been trained as a physicist and we tend to be rather unrigourous
and try to stick to the simple cases
Like I mean regardless of my interpretation that still leaves one to interpret why a pattern emerges
like in the case of the fibannci
 
10:54 AM
@MoreAnonymous Would it suffice if I give you another simple process that has a similar 'pattern-producing' property?
I'm not saying I have one right now, but it should be extremely easy to produce a whole lot of them.
 
Hmm ... it would bring light to ur case i guess ...
But it should also work on pseudo random sequences
also as long as it's not something dumb like multiplying by $0$ ...
 
@MoreAnonymous Of course; that's my claim, that a whole lot of processes like your will produce 'patterns' out from 'most' sequences, and randomness (whatever it means) is irrelevant.
 
alright .... i m intrigued
 
In fact, such processes would work more on random sequences than on non-random ones. For instance try your process on the factorial sequence. Does it really produce any 'pattern'?
 
I'll try
 
 
1 hour later…
12:28 PM
@MoreAnonymous: I have an example process, though I don't know how convincing it would be to you. Let the initial sequence be A[1][1..] and initialize A[0][0..] to zero, and A[k][0] = 0. For each iteration k and positive integer n, let A[k+1][n] = min(abs(A[k][n]−A[k][n−1]),abs(A[k][n]−A[k][n+1]),abs(A[k][n]−A[k−1][n])).
We can prove that for each positive integer n we have ( A[k][n] → 0 as k → ∞ ), but in many cases A[k] will never be the zero sequence no matter how large k is.
Also, if you try various initial sequences, there are various 'patterns' you can 'find' in the resulting array, and they have nothing to do with whether the initial sequence if random or not. Same like for your process.
The process I originally started with was simpler, namely just A[k+1][n] = min(abs(A[k][n]−A[k][n−1]),abs(A[k][n]−A[k][n+1])). You should try that one as well. I added the third term to force the process to have non-uniform convergence. I'll leave you to find the interesting behaviour in either of these processes.
 

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