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user19161
12:00 AM
I read the various posts on Area 51 and could not be convinced that ELL is a good option, so perhaps I am pretty much with Robert Cartaino on this matter.
 
If you can summarize your reasoning, MetaEd (and others) can read it later.
 
@KitFox I think Robert Cartaino summed up the reasoning pretty succinctly.
 
user19161
It is just that whatever can fit in on ELL can fit in on ELU too. It is hard to gauge the level of a question. A simple looking question could be hard, and a hard looking question could be simple. A GR question on ELU would still be a GR question on ELL if we define GR as answerable with a single link. It is also good to focus on one site instead of dilute with two. Now the next question for me is, should we change the scope of ELU?
 
I posted about the pros and cons of loosening up the GR close-votes in Matt's meta post:
3
A: Should we ignore the General Reference close reason?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇The argument in favour of closing as GR is that ELU is not a place to little by little collect the entire OED, one answer at a time. Thus, posting dictionary definitions (the archetypal GR case) doesn't "improve the internet". What it does do is give someone who doesn't have a clue about how to l...

Personally, I am hesitant about closing questions because I find that new users don't know what to do with closed questions. They simply have no idea. I don't know how many times we've had to hold a new user's hand through a laborious tutorial on editing and nominating for re-open.
 
user19161
On the matter of GR, I see a lot of questions are closed as GR and rightfully so, but maybe some are not so straightforward. Sorry, no examples now, just a gut feel. The thing is, even if there are links to answer a question, the link may not be a good answer, or may be a non-authoritative site. We still do benefit from the better answers that may be given on ELU, with elaboration from our experts.
 
12:13 AM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Maybe we could write a blog article on it.
 
@JasperLoy We could restrict the GR close reason to dictionary definitions and etymonline searches. But even then, lots of high-rep users have gained their points by just explaining stuff from the OED or some other manual. They then use the justification that the OED is expensive and not everyone has it, or whatever.
 
user19161
So I think that kind of answers the question I asked earlier. Maybe try to broaden the scope of ELU a little, allow slightly more questions, and also hesitate more before casting a close vote.
 
@KitFox Maybe. I think the problem is the site software, myself. It doesn't adequately explain what you should do when a question is closed.
And I think the site should have some kind of notification for closed questions that have been edited, and thus ostensibly need re-evaluation for reopening.
 
user19161
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is where the grey area is. Dictionaries do give definitions, but sometimes they are not enough to adequately explain the subtle difference between 2 words.
2
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Funny you should say that.
 
12:16 AM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is that the site software or the texts it displays? Can we fix this by rewriting the notice, providing links? If not, by more handholding?
 
70
Q: Add a "Review posts with reopen votes" review task?

NikoWhen a question is closed because it is considered to be "not constructive" or "not a real question", the text explicitly includes a hint that the question might be reopened after it has been improved/clarified, e.g. For help clarifying this question so that it can be reopened, see the FAQ. ...

Ta Da.
Oh, I should put that in the main room.
 
@StoneyB I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the user sees when a question is closed.
 
user19161
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The OED itself is not really a problem to me, not many questions are answerable only by consulting OED.
 
@JasperLoy Are you kidding? Just look at Barrie England's vast horde of answers
 
@JasperLoy Exactly, there are useless dictionaries, and using even a simple dictionary requires substantial sophistication.
 
user19161
12:17 AM
Wow, I got the first 3 stars in this room now, fascinating.
 
user19161
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, but they might also be answered, at least some of them, by consulting say oxforddictionaries.com which also contains many words and many etymologies.
 
Not that Barrie isn't helping people. But I've seen a ton of his answers on questions I would have just voted to close.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They see the same thing you do.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Are you diffident about voting to close just because someone has already answered?
 
Hello.
 
12:19 AM
hi cerb!
 
It's nice to see you all here in this incestuous party.
 
@FumbleFingers No. I'm pointing it out more as an example of a high-rep user whose actions disagree with mine, despite both of us having good intentions for the site.
 
What’s all this now?
 
I'll be sloping off soon, but just wanna get a handle on the general consensus here
 
@FumbleFingers Not sure we have a consensus yet.
 
12:21 AM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I tend to post the "obvious answer" as a comment, then vote to close.
2
 
user19161
@FumbleFingers I see many of your comments would make good answers, you should consider posting them as answers instead really. That way the question can be answered technically.
 
@FumbleFingers Whereas I'm of the opinion that posting the answer at all rewards the user who doesn't care about byzantine site rules, so I just vote to close, and maybe comment to the effect of "what did your dictionary say? What extra help do you need", etc
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Maybe not a complete consensus, but me and thee are probably agreed that Barrie posts more trivial answers than are really justified.
 
@FumbleFingers Well, he has the time and the inclination. So on one hand I don't feel like we should stop him. OTOH it is against The Rules.
 
user19161
Hello @waiwai, nice to have you in here. =)
 
12:24 AM
@JasperLoy but you know I often post those "good answers" while voting to close
 
user19161
@FumbleFingers Now this is how I see it. Trivial, comment with a few words and close. Nontrivial, answer with many words and don't close. QED.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you find them byzantine, then...
 
@Cerberus No, but I bet random users find them byzantine.
 
@JasperLoy Nontrivial but incompetent English and no research?
 
user19161
So now that ELL is nuked, is there some big problem for us to solve? Hmm, I don't see any big problem. We just need to think more about how to better run ELU now!
 
12:27 AM
I have to go soon. Does anyone have question for me before I go?
 
@JasperLoy well, let's not get into repeating ourselves. But my version is Trivial, answer with a comment and close
 
user19161
@StoneyB Then edit, comment, ask to clarify if it is salvagable.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So do I.
 
@KitFox no, but thanks for your time
 
user19161
@FumbleFingers OK, and of course trivial means different things to different people. What is trivial to you may not be so to me.
 
12:28 AM
@FumbleFingers I agree, although I think "have you looked at Dictionary.com?" is fine too.
 
OK, well ping me if you think of anything.
 
@Cerberus yes - MrShiny and many others post that as a "stock comment", which I think is a good idea. I just don't normally do it myself.
 
user19161
Some comments are so long and detailed that I feel they should be answers.
 
What about syntax questions?
 
@FumbleFingers Right.
 
12:31 AM
@JasperLoy most fascinating of all is when what looks trivial to me turns out not to be so, on closer examination, and when attempting to explain why something is "obvious".
 
@StoneyB Hi! What about them?
 
user19161
@StoneyB Asking what the breakdown is? Hmm, I think they are fine.
 
user19161
@FumbleFingers Exactly, there is more than meets the eye.
 
What's your one-stop-shop for GR syntax questions? How does OP find the answer there?
 
user19161
@StoneyB Also, I don't think we get that many syntax questions.
 
12:32 AM
@StoneyB If it is clear what the OP wants to know, and it is a relevant question, answer it (and/or edit); if not, close.
 
most of our GR questions are word meanings, word etymoloogy, and really basic grammar like subject-verb agreement or word order.
 
@StoneyB What do you mean by syntax questions exactly? Any question related to syntax? Analysing a particular sentence?
 
we've been closing basic grammar/word-order questions as GR without saying what the R is because "those go on ELL"
 
You can't easily look those up.
 
user19161
Now I have some doubts. Are Old English questions on or off topic? Yes, I saw the meta post already.
 
12:35 AM
Perhaps we should add "this question can be answered by reading a basic grammar book"?
 
@JasperLoy I think they should be on-topic.
 
Word-order questions are really basic and really really hard to find answers to on the net.
 
@JasperLoy On!
 
user19161
Also, while interpretation of poems or lyrics is not what we do, if it is a specific question about some specific part of the poem or lyrics, it should be on topic.
 
@JasperLoy Isn't that "subjective and argumentative"?
 
12:35 AM
@StoneyB Agreed. So if the question can't be "answered by reading a basic grammar book", I say it can never be GR.
@JasperLoy I say it should only be allowed if it can reasonably be answered without requiring (much) more context than a short quotation.
 
user19161
Am I right to say that questions asking about resources are now off-topic?
 
What are resources?
 
user19161
@Cerberus Yes, allow it if it is about the language and the poem or lyrics is only for context!
 
user19161
@Cerberus Like "What are some good dictionaries?"
 
@JasperLoy That is a bit hard to determine without having answered the question.
 
12:37 AM
I think I may just start downvoting more of the questions that seem trivial to me. It gets on my nerves to see stuff like Is “the girls are want to gossip” correct? getting the highest upvotes, just because everyone thinks "Yeah! - I know about that, but I bet not everyone else does!"
 
72
Q: What are your favorite English language tools?

stackerThis will prevent myself from asking an obvious, silly question again. What are the English language tools you found most useful? I found Corpus Concordance English extremely useful for looking up collocations. Please, one tool per answer.

 
@JasperLoy Oh, those. Yeah, those are usually not very interesting. I would allow them, but I can understand if you want to close them.
 
user19161
@FumbleFingers And this kind of question would not fit on ELL either! It would then just degenerate into a forum, not an SE site.
 
@FumbleFingers Very good. Down-voting is exactly the right instrument to deal with trivial/uninteresting questions.
 
user19161
@Cerberus Because I see that there are many old questions like that, yet the new ones are all closed.
 
12:39 AM
In fact, I may do so myself.
@tchrist Yeah, those are usually not extremely useful, but this one could be.
@JasperLoy Yeah, consistency is not exactly our middle name.
 
user19161
The last time I read the FAQ, it is not clear what is on or off topic. I guess this will always be a grey area. Ultimately I think it is the feel of the 3k users that determines whether sth should be closed.
 
@Cerberus I think we should all downvote more often. If only to counteract the indiscriminate upvotes from people who don't know any better.
 
Is there a consensus that bad questions are a different category of issue from bad answers? (For whatever value of bad you care to choose.)
 
@tchrist That question was asked in order to prevent it ever being asked again. Like intentionally exposing yourself to chicken pox.
 
user19161
That is: the FAQ is a guideline, and the site runs according to how the community feels as a whole, and this is dynamic.
 
12:41 AM
@JasperLoy You say "dynamic" and I say "inconsistent, disorganized, incomprehensible"
 
user19161
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Also, we cannot get everyone to agree on a policy 100 per cent and stick to it forever!
 
@JasperLoy you are on fire today! have another star.
 
user19161
@FumbleFingers Well, you just did not see the light on the other days. =)
 
@FumbleFingers Some high rep users nearly never vote. Why is that?
 
@tchrist I certainly agree that distinction
 
12:43 AM
@FumbleFingers I think you something out.
 
user19161
@tchrist Maybe their personal idiosyncracies. They just don't think it is impt.
 
@FumbleFingers But we ought to vote those questions down that normally get too popular, like some funny expression or vulgarity. And yet we will be a drop in the ocean there.
 
@tchrist I don't know why Barrie, for example, rarely votes
 
user19161
Also, although John Lawler is a great contributor, I feel that sometimes he goes all the way out to stress that rep does not matter to him. Now I confess, rep does matter to me! I am going to use that number to represent my contributions to the site!
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm OK, that's not such a bad idea.
 
12:46 AM
@Cerberus That kinda won’t work — at least, not once they get more than a few votes either way. Inertia carries them onwards and upwards, to infinity and beyond.
 
Yeah.
Alas.
 
Reg gets really frustrated by all that.
And well he should.
 
user19161
@tchrist I am more disturbed by the large down to upvote ratio of some users though. =)
 
user19161
Now I have an up to down ratio of more than 6.
 
@JasperLoy Yes, that is definitely disturbing.
@JasperLoy Yours is a world brighter and more beautiful than many of ours. Could you please pass around some of whatever it is you’re smoking? :)
 
12:49 AM
@tchrist why is it disturbing if someone downvotes more than upvotes?
 
@JasperLoy Downvotes have less impact - inefficient.
 
@FumbleFingers I didn’t say that. I said the reverse, actually. I was teasing Jasper for being such a Pollyanna.
But only in a very playful and inoffensive way.
It’s actually one of his better qualities.
Or anyone’s.
 
@tchrist oic - well having just checked, it seems you and me have similar up/down ratios. But I may start downvoting much more in future
 
Yes, I know, and I think you and I are perceived as kinda negative.
For that reason.
 
@tchrist tell me about it! but we can stand the heat, I'm sure.
 
12:53 AM
Young Mahnax has one of those most negative ratios out there at 1:2 up:down, and he is a charming and playful young soul. It doesn’t always align.
But I wish people would vote more, however they vote.
 
@tchrist my problem is I don't really like to anonymously down/closevote, so I have to explain myself, which makes me look even more hostile than I am. And I'm a pretty mean sumbitch anyway, so that doesn't exactly help!
 
Yes, they think it adds insult to injury to upbraid them on top of the down/close-vote.
Plus we aren’t suppose to say "voting to close". It pissed the moderators off.
 
@tchrist that's why I'm toying with the idea of silently downvoting boring/trivial Q's
 
Because it was perceived as unfriendly.
@FumbleFingers Please tell me you already do that.
 
@tchrist not very often at all, actually
 
12:58 AM
Your "sumbitch" line just came rolling in with a very hickish hillbilly accent from the American South. Do you own a shotgun and a hound dog, too? :)
 
@tchrist that's just my Brit way of showing that I'm vaguely aware of your quaint idioms, but don't really know how to use them. Actually, I just couldn't be arsed to include the whole I'm already one of the meanest sonofabitches in the valley, because I haven't a clue how to make that work unless I'm the meanest.
 
Well, everybody has gone home by now, but there is one inescapable fact fairly unique to ELU that will forever apply. Everybody, and I mean everybody thinks they are an expert. We get bfauzciklilnigons of first-time drive-by rep-1 answer every single day.
And kindness fatigue is inevitable.
Which is a problem.
 
@tchrist Everybody over 6 years old is an expert compared to half our questioners.
2
 
@StoneyB I dunno. Most so-called experts leave pretty crappy answers.
 
I see Jasper has failed to forward any of whatever it is he was smoking, so I'm off to find my own. First rule of ELU for me - don't stay online at ELU after partaking of herbal remedies, or you'll be outed as a total twat.
so - night all
 
1:04 AM
@tchrist Then one corrects them, condescendingly. That'll larn em.
 
@StoneyB Reg and Waiwai are forever deleting ultra lame "answers" from those people. You don’t see the tenth of them.
 
@tchrist I sort of like lex, who reads like a bad parody of me.
 
It looks bad when the front page has a lot of closed questions.
One approach is to downvote most of those off the front page.
But we will never not have lots of not-a-questions. We can’t even keep Nortonn away, let alone a hundred clones of him.
 
And yet there's that really eloquent post of KitFox (how do you do that banner thing?), 1st answer here](meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/2998/…), which ends "Downvoting should be the last thing you do, not the first."
Oh bugger
 
20
A: Why are most new questions being downvoted?

KitFoxYou have made a very good observation. You may recall that the last time we communicated, almost a year ago, I told you that I thought that the silent downvotes on your question were due to "overzealous enforcement of the FAQ guideline that suggests that off-topic questions should be down-voted ...

Just put the link alone by itself on a line.
 
1:13 AM
kewl
 
It’s a really minor thing, but we have so many highly negative closed questions that will never be fixed and reopened, and which we will never get around to deleting.
This goes against the idea that bad non-questions will eventually get deleted. There are just too many of them.
 
Ask the Geekarchy for age-and-purge.
 
What do you mean?
If they are closed, and have no answers, and have rep 0 or below, they get deleted after a month. Something like that.
Those aren’t the ones I mean.
What happens is that someone or other posts an answers or seven before they get closed.
Then it takes positive effort to make them go away. Also, if they have positive score.
If we no longer close questions for GR, we damned well better get better [sic] at closing them for being dupes.
 
Dupes are a pain. I haven't been around long enough to recognize all the 13 Fundamental Questions which each have 637 dupes. Only "can I put X at the beginning of a sentence?"
 
Reg is really good at it.
The thing is, if you haven’t been here forever, you won’t remember that something is a dupe.
But yeah, sometimes you have to use google not site search.
 
1:30 AM
Prolly superfluous anyway. If it's a dupe it is by definition GR, since we're the handiest reference.
2
Gotta run feed my wife. Happy consensus.
 
Bye!
The only way we are ever going to get a huge whole lot of high rep users is by getting rid of GR closevotes.
Do we care?
 
2:07 AM
@JasperLoy smells good, too.
sniffs room again Well, I got what I came for. Smell you later.
 
Hi, Mark.
 
 
5 hours later…
7:33 AM
Who invited me? :)
 
7:56 AM
@tchrist Questions with a negative score, no answer, and that are older than a month are deleted on a week basis.
 
8:26 AM
I don't understand what people's misunderstand about the line between ELL and EL&U. ELL is for beginners, EL&U is not. There's nothing more to it.
you know how school and university are different? like that.
 
@MattЭллен Maybe the problem is having two sites with the same topic (English), but with different requirements for the users (beginners versus not beginners).
I read the proposal has been closed.
 
Maybe, but surely people are aware that and English GCSE is different to an English BA?
@kiamlaluno yes, because people couldn't see the line and aparently everything there is on topic here
which misses the points that a) they're not and b) the questions would be treated differently at the different sites
you don't give a GCSE answer at a Degree level and vice versa
but what ever
 
I think they missed one point: English is a language that is used from people all around the world, and there isn't a lower limit on who uses it.
 
now we have to decide how we're going to treat the simplistic questions we get here
 
That is not what happens with a programming language: When you use it, you know it enough to write a script/program.
So, in one case the lower level is higher than in the other one.
 
8:34 AM
yes
 
Nobody on Stack Overflow asks "What does if means in C?"
 
they might ask it about PHP ;)
 
OK, OK... that was a bad example. ;)
 
nah, I'm just messing
 
What I think is that to a simple question asked from a beginner about using are with a singular subject, you cannot reply "in some dialects is perfectly normal."
 
8:37 AM
exactly
 
What the beginner wants to know is if that is normally acceptable.
If you tell him "it was used during Old English," he could not care less.
I would close the too basic questions as general reference, if the user doesn't show he knows more.
For example, if the user says "I know you don't normally use are when the subject is singular, but are there dialects where are is used when the subject is singular?" would be acceptable.
It would be more acceptable if the user says "I found this phrase [...] who was written by somebody who knows well English not to make such a silly error. Is the author using a construct that is acceptable in some dialects?"
 
Yes. delving into the intricacies of the language
 
So, questions like "Do I use are, or is with I?" should be closed as general reference, as the user doesn't show he knows more.
 
waiwai disagrees, because genref is for things that have a reference online.
I agree, to an extent, but would rather adjust the meaning of genref
 
Well, the meaning of a word surely has an online reference.
 
8:46 AM
apparently the party line is that basic questions like that are fine
@kiamlaluno the conjugation of a verb is not so easily found
 
It could be they are saying "You can ask a basic question, as long as it is well defined, it has a context, and it is constructive."
@MattЭллен That is true. In that case, there is the "too localized" reason.
I think the general reference should be used when the user doesn't give any context.
 
@kiamlaluno I suppose that could be argued either way. Playing the devil's advocate - there are a lot of people who would benefit from an answer to that question! From my point of view, though, those people should not be at EL&U
 
If the question is "What does sun mean?" I would close it as general reference.
 
definitely
 
If the question gives a context, then it could be acceptable, as long as I don't have to guess the meaning that fits for the OP, or list all the possible meaning.
I think that "guessing what the OP wants" should be a reason for considering a question not acceptable.
The problem is with those questions where the user asks for a word to use instead of a phrase.
Some of them are acceptable, but some of them are not.
 
8:54 AM
single word requests and phrase requests can be quite a quagmire of opinion
 
I really don't like when the OP starts to comment with "I thought of that word, but I didn't like it," or "I was suggested it, but it doesn't rhyme with [choose a word]."
At the end, who answers needs to guess what the OP likes.
That is not what I would call "answering"; it is "guessing."
 
me too. It's a big red flag to me
just because you don't know what you want, don't expect us to.
 
I think there should be the equivalent of a question who just shows code without giving context, or details, for EL&U.
If I ask a question on Stack Overflow, and I just show the code without giving further detail, the question would not be acceptable.
 
indeed
however natural language is a lot more subjective compared to programming languages
 
The problem is not giving enough details. There should be a minimum required level of details on EL&U too.
 
8:59 AM
so we do have to give some leeway
 
When you see that all the answers are equally valid, then the given details are probably not enough.
 
agreed
 
Clearly, it is acceptable if there are two different answers, but not 10 answers.
That means that who answers is trying to guess, which could also happen if the user is trying to answer to as much answers as he can, though.
Leaving out that case, having 10 different answers is clear a sign that something is wrong with the question.
 
true, but we can't stop people gaming the system. We can close bike shedding questions.
 
@MattЭллен That would still be true if ELL graduated.
You cannot avoid a user ask a question in the wrong site. You can just close the question, and delete it.
 
9:06 AM
yeah, but as I said, ELL was meant to help people who shouldn't be asking questions here, because they don't know Enlgish well enough.
 
It could help if users who have many deleted questions would be blocked from asking further questions, which is what happens on Stack Overflow.
 
ELL wasn't there to prevent bike shed questions or gaming the system.
 
Bike shedding questions are problematic when there aren't enough details. Speaking English as first language, or second/third language should not matter, for those cases.
 
they can also be a problem when there are sufficient details. I've seen some very well written questions that are not constructive
 
Not constructive questions are still not constructive, even with enough details; that is true.
But not constructive questions are still not constructive, in any SE site you ask them.
 
9:21 AM
@FumbleFingers as @KitFox said, a tag like that ain't gonna fly. Not because she said so, or because I say so, but because TPTB say so.
Jeff Atwood on August 06, 2010

There are a few tags on Stack Overflow that have bugged me for a long time. Namely:

subjective best-practices beginner

best-practices beginner

beginner

But I could never quite articulate what, exactly, was wrong with these tags. It’s been bothering me more and more as time goes on. So much so, that about two months ago, I was compelled to ask on meta: Should we permanently remove the [subjective] tag?

There are some weak arguments in favor of keeping [subjective], but that’s about the best its proponents can muster. The arguments against it are much stronger. I felt Shog9 made the best case: …

 
@J.R. - can you chat here, or do you need to be added to chatters?
 
Oh, you added him as owner. That is why I saw him listed as owner. :)
 
AFAIK one has to be owner to chat here
 
It is enough the "write permission." Being the owner of the room is too much. :)
 
9:26 AM
I think we're all owners
equality amoung the sistren and brethren
 
"Enough details"? If the questioner could give sufficient details that only one answer fits, he probably wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.
 
Yes, but it is not necessary.
Maybe only moderators can assign the "write" permission.
@MattЭллен Do you see this page?
 
@kiamlaluno yes, that's how I added JR
 
If you click on the brown arrow shown for each user, what do you see?
 
the tradition of the room is to add people we want to chat as owners
@kiamlaluno I see a list of options
I added J.R., I know what's there
 
9:30 AM
I read "no special access," "read access," "write access," and "owner."
@TimLymington I didn't say "enough details that a single answer is possible."
I got confirmation: Gallery chat rooms can be accessed by everybody; who has the "write" permission can talk in the room.
The only exceptions are moderators, who can enter private rooms, and talk in any room.
 
for they are like gods amoung men!
 
;)
I was used to a different phrase: Modrators are monkeys with guns. ;)
 
9:46 AM
@Cerberus I must say I find "have you looked at dictionary.com" a bit rude. Questions always work like that. They sound like accusations. I think I actually read some research on that. I always try to reword my comments such that they do not contain questions. It's not always easy, but in this case it's trivial: "Please have a look at Dictionary.com", and make that Dictionary.com a relevant link.
 
@MattЭллен Did you add me as owner?
 
@kiamlaluno you're a mod! But I think MetaEd did
 
@MattЭллен Oh, before I accessed the room, then.
 
Oh, I see. :)
 
9:51 AM
@tchrist kindness fatigue is inevitable for any given person, yes; but the idea is to combat kindness fatigue as a community. Meaning, I am getting fed up with X and can't be nice anymore, so when you come along, I teach you The Good Ways, and take a break, and you take over, and by the time you are fed up with the same X for the same reason, you've hopefully taught The Good Ways to someone else, and he carries the torch from there on, and who knows perhaps by that time I'm back from hiatus too.
Like proteges taking over from mentors and becoming mentors themselves, for lack of a better metaphor.
 
Did anybody notice that two users are required to approve a suggested edit?
 
only for lower rep users AFAIK
I can approve a suggested edit without a second
 
Anyway, what I'm really saying is: we need a steady influx of new good users. That's really all we need to be more laid-back on the inside and more welcoming on the outside. If for some reason you can't take it anymore, take a break instead; if you can't post a nice comment, don't post any comment at all; someone else will jump in, and the community as a whole will continue to look nice and friendly.
3
But if we don't educate enough new users to carry on when we're tired, then you don't have the luxury to be tired, ever. And all hope is lost because one fine day all of us will be collectively tired at once.
 
@MattЭллен The announce doesn't speak of low reputation users. It is like on Stack Overflow: If you are not a moderator, you cannot instantly approve a suggested edit.
 
@kiamlaluno an announcement? where is it?
 
10:00 AM
Clearly, there is a way to approve a suggested edit, without a second user: Just improve the suggested edit.
 
@RegDwighт: couldn't agree more with the sentiment (and I approve of motherhood and apple pie, too). But do we get new good users by being less selective about questions (and hence users) or more?
 
maybe I've only been approving edits after someone else has
 
297
Q: Recent feature changes to Stack Exchange

devinbThis is the official list of new features and various changes to Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange network. It is jointly maintained by the community and Rebecca Chernoff (a Stack Exchange, Inc team member). RSS feed for this question Return to FAQ index

 
@kiamlaluno ah! thanks :D
I've not approved anything in October
 
Ah ah, that explains all. :)
 
10:07 AM
@TimLymington frankly, I can't remember when I last saw a great asker who went on to carry the torch for the old and the tired. Most good users clearly come from the answerer camp. And anyway, in any SE community, it's the answerers whom you have to make happy so they stick around and keep up the job; there is never a shortage of askers on an established site. (I think there's even a blog post or two about that.) So the idea is to be exactly as selective with questions as the answerers wish.
And that's what this room is supposed to find out.
Are the answerers more giddy if the site pans out as X or if it pans out as Y.
 
Got it. And since I now have a licence to ride my hobbyhorse: the constant danger with EL&U specifically is being overwhelmed by duplicates, homework questions, and "My teacher says". I'm honestly not inclined to wade through dozens of such things in order to reach one interesting question: but I don't say these people have no right to ask questions. That's why ELL is not merely a good idea, but necessary.
 
10:23 AM
I fluctuate between MetaEd's stance of voting to close everything I find too basic, and Cerberus's stance of let them ask because we can help them. It's not like there is a tag I can ignore when I don't want to help beginners.
No matter where I stand, I agree with closing questions that have answers in a dictionary.
but the endless questions about prepositions, I'm not sure about.
 
11:05 AM
People have been added as owners so that they have privileges to add others as necessary. You only need write permission to actually talk in here.
And good morning.
 
Hello!
 
hello
what exactly are we doing in this room?
 
11 hours ago, by Jasper Loy
I figure it is about the direction ELU should take now that ELL is closed?
essentially figuring out our broad consensus on basic questions
 
MetaEd is the convener.
 
hrm
looking up... is the main target gen ref questions, or those interminable
 
11:16 AM
more the sorts of questions we would have migrated to ELL
as far as I understand it
 
well, gen ref is gen ref
or: i am very eager to close questions as gen ref when it's clear that it's a basic topic of english grammar, whose only conceivable interest is to other beginning language learners
 
right, but people are using gen ref to mean just too basic. Is that OK too?
 
it's fine by me
remember that the original wording for "gen ref" was "too basic"
 
@JSBձոգչ yeah, so are we to extend the written definition to encompass this behaviour?
@JSBձոգչ too basic and has an online reference
unless that was added at some point
 
i find it hard to believe that there is any "too basic" question that doesn't have an online reference
i do believe that many of the baby pineapples can't find those references, because their questions are so badly worded
but we don't need to be in the business of fixing it for those people
 
11:21 AM
questions like "should I be in, on or at school" have an online answer?
 
probably
(but that question is a dup at least 100 times over)
 
no one has found it so far, because these question keep coming up
none of the answers or askers
anyway. that's what we're discussing. not to get bogged down in details
 
 
3 hours later…
1:59 PM
13 hours ago, by Cerberus
Perhaps we should add "this question can be answered by reading a basic grammar book"?
 
@kiamlaluno I did.
 
@MετάEd Oh. Alright, I was trying to interpret what I saw in a page, which told me I had read-write access, and then that I was owner of the room. I thought I had read-write access in the moment I entered in the chat room, and then somebody made me owner.
 
2:24 PM
@RegDwighт I suppose "have you looked at Dictionary.com?" can be construed as rude...
But I really meant it as "do you know this site? If not try it, it's good".
Perhaps "please look at Dictionary.com" is less prone to such constructions/construals.
 
3:06 PM
@Cerberus I generally preface a suggestion like yours with: "This question can be improved by" so that it might be understood as a constructive suggestion with the intent to help.
This question can be improved by consulting a reference such as OneLook.com and including the result in the question.
 
@MετάEd Okay...
The only thing is that the question can often be answered by consulting Dictionary.com
That was the scenario I had in mind.
 
3:25 PM
@Cerberus That is true. And maybe the OP does that, and goes away satisfied, and never improves the question. So we close and eventually delete the question, and everybody wins.
 
Yeah.
That would be a likely scenario.
 
4:26 PM
@MετάEd Most things never get deleted. Look at the 30-day delete queue to see what I mean.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:29 PM
0
Q: Correct word for a design in progress

Chaim ChaikinIn the process of making a design, what is the design called? (Specifically in regard to graphic design) As in: Please see first design(??) of poster attached

The question above has a discussion in comments which is relevant: basically it's Robert Cartaino closing a question "NARQ" because it's incomplete, i.e. no effort.
 
in English Language & Usage, 1 hour ago, by KitFox
I think you could post on ELL a fuller, more specific site definition with perhaps some success. If we demonstrated a clearer plan, they might reopen it.
in English Language & Usage, 1 hour ago, by KitFox
In other words, if we said "We will put all SWRs on ELL, all verb agreement questions on ELL, all which article? when article? which preposition? questions would go on ELL."
I forgot I was going to post these over here.
 
I don't think all (or even most) SWRs belong on ELL.
 
Hi @Martha.
hugs
 
Aw. hugs back
 
5:46 PM
@Marthaª Do you think they belong on EL&U?
 
@MετάEd Hell yes! I love SWRs.
 
29
Q: Single word requests, crosswords, and the fight against mediocrity

Shog9A call to action This topic has been brought up here numerous times before, most recently by JSBangs: I'm now of the opinion that single word requests should be either disallowed entirely or subject to much more stringent requirements. The reasons are as follows: We get lots of...

 
(Check my stats: my highest-voted answer and question are both SWRs.)
 
@Marthaª I would like to understand why you think SWRs do belong on EL&U and do not belong on ELL. That ought to give me some real insight into your thinking.
 
@MετάEd Many SWRs are looking for more esoteric words. Those ones probably do not belong on ELL. But some probably do. Personally, I'd say it depends on what kind of SWR it is and what the expected answer would be.
 
5:51 PM
Conversational dieseling is one of my favorites.
 
conversational dieseling?
 
41
Q: Is there an English phrase for an inability to actually *leave* already?

MarthaªThere is a Hungarian expression, küszöbgörcs, which literally means "threshold-cramp", and is used to describe that long conversation you have in the entryway, with all the guests awkwardly holding their coats and purses, and every so often somebody says something like "Ok, we really have to leav...

 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I also think some SWRs could good questions. But EL&U is not an interactive thesaurus. An SWR would have to be a very good question.
 
A very good easily migrateable question.
 
@MετάEd Well, I won't try to defend or attack SWRs in general. But we have lots. And clearly some are by more advanced users than others.
 
6:03 PM
And my point was only...hahaha funny mod message.
Uh. What was I saying?
My point was only that I think it would help to draw a clearer line between the two sites.
SWRs in general seem like good questions for ELL.
Also, the others that I mentioned.
Or whatever you like.
 
So, not so much beginner/advanced users, more easy/advanced questions?
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Absolutely. Look to the question, not the user.
 
@MετάEd The really good SWRs are not at all basic, and don't come from a place of "learning the language". I'd venture to say that both threshold-cramps and semantic satiation are totally irrelevant, possibly even harmful (in the sense of information overload), to ESL students.
 
@Marthaª Yes. ELL is not the place to pose expert Q&A. However EL&U is not the place to pose basic SWRs. The SWR would have to be a really good question.
 
@Marthaª i agree with Martha here
 
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