@TheRavenQueen — Hi.

@III-AK-III Hey

So here's what I'm not sure about:

@TheRavenQueen Please go ahead

A wife can disobey her husband if he makes a haram request. This does not count as sin for the wife. If she, however, disobeys a halal request she is rebellious and commits a major sin.

Is that correct so far?

@TheRavenQueen Not entirely accurate. A halal request does not necessarily make it acceptable as a condition for nushūz. Nushūz is what constitutes "rebellion".

For example: If a husband requests his wife to do a humiliating act (say, stand in a corner like a trouble student in the old days), she is not necessarily obliged to obey.

On the other hand, if a husband orders his wife to not go out of her house, and she does, this would be considered rebellion, which necessitates that the husband advise his wife of what she should do.

@TheRavenQueen Can you read Arabic, or should I look up translations for hadiths?

@III-AK-III I cannot read Arabic.

@TheRavenQueen Let me look some hadith up.

@III-AK-III Is there anything like that for a husband not fulfilling his wife's requests or is he allowed to ignore them as he pleases?

@TheRavenQueen This is what I am looking for, as anticipated that,

In this hadith in Jami at-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1352, it says that Muslims are held to their conditions (contractual conditions), except when the conditions render what is lawful unlawful, and vice versa.

In my first version of the response, I had put a comparison of what each side can ask, obliged to follow, and obliged not to do.

It was too long,

The thing is: From a "halal" perspective, it is permitted for either party to ask whatever they want, and it can become binding once contracted,

A wife can ask that her husband does not beat her, or does not marry another woman, or ..., and this can become part of the marriage contract and binding to the husband.

Is it halal to marry another women? Yes. The condition in the contract is not about making it haram, but about terminating the contract if this right is exercised.

This is also halal to put as a condition. As it is also legal in modern day contracts to have termination for a cause (typically refers to negligence based terminations or due to liability or unfulfillment of a service level, etc.), or a termination for convenience.

The condition of not marrying another woman is a condition for termination of convenience (or its lack, thereof).

Is the marriage contract always made to include everything? In the situation of a converted women who has yet to learn a lot you might now know what you want to have specified. If then later your husband e.g. requests you to stay in the house and you are not okay with it but it wasn't specified in the contract... what can you do?

*might not know

@TheRavenQueen I don't know. This will require another question as it is a separate topic of its own. Perhaps some other user has researched this topic,

@TheRavenQueen I understand your question. The thing is I only research topics that are actionable on my side.

Understandable.

@TheRavenQueen I looked up quickly this case, but I could only find the reverse. A wife that had put a condition to finish her education in the marriage contract, and the husband does not want to fulfill this condition. The response was that he had to, unless she is committing something haram (Arabic only though — IslamWeb 281713. You can probably use a translation service to get a rough idea.

Sorry — this is the right link.

@TheRavenQueen Both links were on similar topics in any case.

Unfortunately the translations are terrible, I get the general idea what they are talking about but any details are lost.

I think I'll try to look up more about marriage contracts later cause I don't know much about that.

Thanks for your time!

@TheRavenQueen ِYou bet. Please feel free to ping me and continue with any questions that may come up,

@III-AK-III What about standing on one leg? It sounds like you know the answer to a previous question of mine.

@RebeccaJ.Stones I missed that question. First time I see it. Let me read it and see if I can answer.

@III-AK-III "If a husband requests his wife to do a humiliating act (say, stand in a corner like a trouble student in the old days), she is not necessarily obliged to obey." This is new to me, and it seems unusual in the context of how sharia sets up marriage; enduring your husband having sex with you when you really don't want to seems as humiliating as it gets, but that's clearly part of marriage in sharia. On a fortiori grounds, standing in the corner looks entirely benign compared to that.

@III-AK-III "The thing is: From a "halal" perspective, it is permitted for either party to ask whatever they want, and it can become binding once contracted," That's a different issue though, a contract is something bilateral, a command is unilateral. Sure, the husband could agree to all kinds of stipulations, but per default, he has large unilateral rights to command his wife about. The wife does not have such rights over her husband by default.

@G.Bach The husband can demand anything at anytime, as can the wife, and as can you of his wife for that matter. The wife is not obliged to even consider your demands since you are of no legal substance in their marriage.

@G.Bach If she does not listen to your demands, this does not make her "rebellious". But she is obliged to obey her husband, unless that involves sin or will harm her or deprive her of her rights, in which case she should not obey him. See differences of opinion between husband and wife concerning matters where the scholars differed.

@G.Bach The components of the question are (i) husband asks, (ii) wife obeys with no consequence, and (iii) wife disobeys with a consequence of becoming "rebellious". If your concern is about the husband "demanding" (same word used in the question), then yes the husband as well as anyone else has the right to demand. The demander being the "husband" in this case makes no difference whatsoever.

@G.Bach We know that the essence of the "husband" in this question is not (i); rather, it is (ii) and (iii). Hence, the answer.

@G.Bach If you read the letters exchange on WikiIslam, you will see the logic used. Husband: "These are my demands, not because I said so, but because Allah said so." Wife: "If Allah says so, I am leaving Islam."

So the answer is addressing this angle. Is this what Islam says? If the wife does not obey these demands, is she considered rebellious?

About this comment: "That is, the wife is not legally obligated to follow this demand at all times" - I don't understand your answer as saying that, I understand your answer as saying "women aren't obligated to do this per default", I don't see how it addresses the situation where a husband demands from his wife that she do this.

@III-AK-III The fatwa you quote says nothing about an obligation deriving from her husband's demand, just that the source texts by themselves don't stipulate one.

But that's like saying "is a woman obliged to have sex with her husband 5 times every day" - not per default, but if the husband demands she does, she probably is. I really can't tell whether any part of your answer addresses "is following these demands of the husband obligatory for the wife".

@G.Bach I guess we have a different understanding of what the fatwa stipulates. When "women aren't obligated to do this per default", then a husband claiming that this is what Allah says hence she must obey is incorrect. Since it is incorrect, she is not obliged to obey.

@G.Bach This is a matter of what takes precedence. Right for demanding sex is well documented. We are not discussing whether this right makes sense or not. We are discussing whether a wife is obliged to obey or not. She is obliged to obey long as she physically can, even if she is not mentally prepared or ready.

@III-AK-III The husband is wrong that she's required to do that per sharia, but if he does demand it, would she be obliged to obey it?

@III-AK-III Exactly, that's why I say I can't tell what your answer says; it seems well documented to me that a wife is obliged to follow her husband's demands as long as he doesn't demand she do anything haram.

@G.Bach This is where common ground is lost: unless he doesn't demand she do anything (i) haram, (ii) harmful to her, or (iii) deprive of her right. This is the link to the fatwa that I quoted: islamqa.info/en/97125.

@G.Bach Is sex 5 times a day halal to ask? Yes.

@G.Bach (i) Halal: Check. (ii) Harmful to her: she has to decide. (iii) Deprive her of her rights: No (according to Islam).

Therefore, he can ask, and she has to obey provided there is no harm that will befall her.

In other words, it is not blanket obedience. It is an action that she can take and be accountable for it in front of Allah.

Same for a husband that exercises his right of (i) advise, (ii) abandon, then (iii) beat. He is accountable in front of Allah for his actions.

The judge, in terms of legality, assuming it is an Islamic court that is ruling such a case, will need to validate the three conditions.

@G.Bach By the way, the term is "ta'a bi al-ma'roof". Ma'roof is derived from what is traditionally acceptable, linguistically speaking; or religiously proper, Islamically speaking.

@III-AK-III As far as I can see, you didn't quote that fatwa anywhere in your answer, a paragraph on that and rephrasing your points to address those three issues for each of the listed demands would make your answer a lot better I think. I neglected the conditions of not harmful and not depriving her of a right, you're right to point them out.

@III-AK-III "Harmful to her: she has to decide." Do you mean she can define whether something is harmful to her? I doubt that's what you mean. What do you mean with "she has to decide" here? If she doesn't fulfill a demand because she thinks it would be harmful to her and the husband brings her in front of a qadi for some issue related to her potentially being rebellious, what criteria will the judge apply to determine whether the action the husband demanded would have been harmful?

@G.Bach Understood. I should do so. Thanks.

@G.Bach Done.