The Classroom

@nocomprende Link?

BTW, nice question today :)

Wooo, I'm sleepy. Good night, friends!

7:13 AM

hello

Hi

9:30 AM

shocked expression No one at Arduino.SE has the sportsmanship badge. They have 22k users, and not one has it. Whoa

10:42 AM

15 hours ago, by ItamarG3

If there's need for someone to handle new users because mods might be offline, I'd be more than willing to help. (You have no idea how lonesome and bored I get between 10am and 16pm here)

Yep...

13:42...

12:17 PM

Hai

Hello

So. about this:

1

A: Topic Challenges

Second suggestion, for challenges to come: After winners are announced, we should 1 Thursday, and then reveal the next topic challenge on the Thursday after that one. (We wait a week and until Thursday). Challenges would always be revealed on Thursdays. I think it's a fancy suggestion.

I don't think too many people saw this second suggestion

1:07 PM

Thursdays, eh?

Well maybe not this one, but next one...

“This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over his beer. 'I never could get the hang of Thursdays.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Right now, we're held up by SE, but then we can proceed on to getting ideas for the next contest.

ok then

hey @SagarV. haven't seen you in a while

1:27 PM

activity drop in the last 2-3 days.

we were at 3.8 q/d. it's a steady decline.

It's not terribly surprising though, during the summer period

It was predicted, IIRC. But still, it makes me sad

Is it likely we'd get some word from RC\Pops about something?

(about anything at all?)

Unless there are major problems, probably not

The community largely runs itself unless there are issues that require the CM team

That big day of 9 questions dropped off of the 2-week running average :P

there shouldn't be a big day like that.

there should be big days like that

1:36 PM

Yeah. And this average feels right. We really do get 2-3 questions a day.

@ItamarG3 exactly. not here for a while. being busy in SO and MSE

@ItamarG3 also, this is eligible for deletion

@SagarV good to have you visiting us again

@Aurora0001 But i only get delete votes each 1000 rep :(

(just kidding. If something ought to be deleted, then by most means

You get 5 delete votes per day

+ 1 bonus per 1000 rep

1:52 PM

oh

I was not aware of that

Hopefully there's not that much to delete on this site in a day ;)

Sadly, 2 questions in 2 days.

That's not so good.

And they were from new users.

sigh

public beta is such a phase. if the activity is high in all days, the site will be graduated in 90-100 days

@SagarV I'm not sure I'd want us to graduate just yet. Say we did have an active site with 11 question each day for 3 weeks straight. We still have many issues regarding the community, our policies (like site scope) and, well, the rep of users.

I believe the policy's changed now and sites are very unlikely to graduate at 90 days, even if they are active (see Ethereum for an example)

They were consistently hitting 10 questions/day throughout the public beta, and only recently graduated

2:04 PM

@ItamarG3 I am not participating that much because I don't have much power here. I am spending time on SO where I have much more power

@SagarV Yes, but no one has power (I prefer calling it privilege) if they aren't active.

@ItamarG3 hmm. It is hard to get privilege in sites with low activity

Yes and no

in a low activity site, you got 25 upvotes for your question and 12 in this one which is very impressive.

@SagarV I am pretty sure you could ask really good questions here and give very good answer, and at some point you'd probably find that you gained quite a bit of rep from those posts.

Our active users gain rep pretty darned fast.

Look at Ben for example.

:P

2:17 PM

And @Buffy as well. He gains rep as fast as I do!

businessinsider.com/…

Good news for this site :)

I keep seeing the wikiless app-inventor, and each time I think to myself whether Ellen should be the one to write it... :\

2:34 PM

A bigger problem is that we have had only 5 entries in 24Hours on the active questions page. Most of our activity here is by high rep users. New users are IMO being actively discouraged. I know of at least one paragon of CS Education who has probably contributed to CS Education than nearly anyone here being shut out. Sad

Certainly his post wasn't up to "standards" but he wasn't encouraged to contribute.

Or, I'm pretty sure, feels that way, though I haven't spoken with him.

You might find this of use...

My comments there are a clear representation of how I think new users should be treated. On SO, that won't scale. Here, for now, I think it's a pretty good solution.

:39057914

@ItamarG3 Sorry, Shorter version of the link: Please do my homework for me!!!

What?

That's more hurtful than one of the comments on the post.

"I am trying to make a game called '10000'. It is very simple:" That's not how homework questions start.

@ItamarG3 But I probably wouldn't post such a comment. It reads like an assignment though. I assume SO has rules against such questions.

I.E. Homework questions.

They've gone back and forth on that. Homework questions aren't banned, but there are guidelines.

2:45 PM

@ItamarG3 I agree that your suggestions were helpful, BTW.

Saying that a "short version of the link" is that it's a request for someone to do someone else's homework for them is hurtful.

@Buffy I also know someone who is quite amazing, but was discouraged from contributing here. But, if I'm honest, his contributions here were consistently pretty low quality. For whatever reason, he only wanted to give single-sentence answers to things here.

IRL I have a very public presence. I occasionally get questions by email that seem to be rephrased homework ending "how do I do that?" or similar. I do two things. Instead of answering, I point them to places where they can learn how, and if I can learn where they study, I try to contact their instructor to learn what rules they have so I can aid rather than hinder the prof.

Sometimes two sentences, and never very thoughtful. I didn't know how to get him to contribute anything more meaningful, goodness knows he is beyond capable.

That kind of attitude, the one where questions (and answers) that are not exemplary posts get showered with hurtful comments and downvotes, is one I'd want to remove.

2:49 PM

^^^^^^ YES

revelation reveals itself

@BenI. If you know the person IRL you could, perhaps, have a chat offline. Information about the "sanctity" of Answers v the "commonality" of comments is useful too. But that can be converted in comments.

I just realized something.

the "take it to chat" link is usable by the OP, even if they are new users.

@Buffy I want to give a workshop at CSTA on how to navigate CSE (and SO)

The OP of that question is in chat right now

2:51 PM

Can they talk?

@ItamarG3 Yes

@ItamarG3 I think that our "Be Nice" rule is pretty well adhered to here.

@Aurora0001 I would assume so. It would be a sucky engine if they couldn't

@Buffy saying that the question is like "please do my homework for me!!!"?

@BenI. I'm pretty sure users under 20 rep can join, and are visibly shown as there, but are unable to speak

2:52 PM

But that's the solution.

Not an overly good one.

@Aurora0001 If they can join, then they have a chat account. Why would there be a speaking restriction?

But: "spam" comments on the post until the system invites people to chat. OP joins, delete the comments from the post (users do this, not mods), and then continue as though it's the guidance office.

@ItamarG3 The system doesn't move the comments to chat, mods do :(

We get an automatic flag whenever there are >20 comments

I'm certain I'm not a mod on SO

shivers at the thought

@ItamarG3 You seem to have interpreted it as an insult. It wasn't meant that way. Just a description.

2:56 PM

@BenI. chat.stackexchange.com/faq#talk

You can have an account but still not be able to talk I think

Precisely. But how does a new user, who just saw how the number next to his question is -6, understand that it's jargon?

@Aurora0001 Fascinating! But then a RO can enable them, correct?

Yeah

We're close to Itamar's system!!

Who becomes RO?

2:58 PM

Still doesn't work, though, because there is no RO on those automatically generated rooms.

chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/info/150325/…

yeah...

If your comments get moved to chat or the comments on your question, you get auto-access iirc

BUT there is now still a way

I wonder...

Patrick Lolk

1 2

Oh.

wow.

they have a chat account.

The chat user gets created by the auto-move of comments, and then if Itamar is a RO in guidance, he can add them there.

3:00 PM

It appears no access to anyone: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/info/150325/discussion?tab=access

Of course, now we're talking about spamming the user with 20 comments, and then tacking one more on the end, "No, but actually, go here"

@BenI. Does the user get auto-created?

Wait,

I'll create a test user. Hold on

@Aurora0001 Yeah

But anyway, you still reach the same problem; you now need a mod to move comments (and there are only 3 people able to do that)

3:02 PM

This will be a fun experiment. Post a test question (we will delete it after the experiment) and have at it :)

Exactly what I thought

I don't think we need to do that

What are we trying to find out again?

if the "move discussion to chat" that automatically appears (no mod involvement) can provide a platform for helping new users for a while

Well, we can look at already moved discussions

I'll be back later. I'm eager to find out the results of the experiment. Take care, folks!

3:06 PM

Moving to chat does create chat accounts.

At least of all the commenters, maybe not the OP

I'd guess the OP doesn't get a chat account created.

we even have a tag to use for this question

Anyone saw the question?

test user will now comment "givz me teh codez plz" XD

I think the user need to visit a chatroom or something.

Question is live.

btw don't flag it

don't flag it because it'll add pointless noise

Why is this happening?

3:10 PM

because we're testing something

What thing?

20 mins ago, by ItamarG3

revelation reveals itself

We know all commenters get chat accounts

read from here.

I did

I think we're testing something that we already know is true

All commenters get chat accounts and can be added to guidance

Do you want me to move the comments?

3:12 PM

no

no mod involvement. None at all

(except for comments if you want. But just plain comments)

There's no point in this

All the info you need is in meta

We're testing something specific

Oh yeah, what if OP doesn't comment? — Ben I. ♦ 4 mins ago

Then it can't be moved to chat

op commented...

Sorry, wrong words. I meant to say that they won't have a chat account

3:17 PM

17 comments. Are we trying to get to 20?

The threshold is 11

^^^^ eh?

Between 2 users

iirc

I'm looking for a meta

Damn. Time to research. @thesecretmaster good idea

I got it! i

Yeah. I don't know why y'all had to make a test post

3:21 PM

I think it requires long posts

No

It's about convo length and users involved

3:37 PM

@Buffy I think we should make a test again once we know how to make the auto invite link appear

The rules: 11 messages back and forth between 2 users where they both have > 20 rep or 20 messages total.

Fine with me. I'm just a mousie here.

We didn't quite get to 20.

Maybe 18

@thesecretmaster the deleted thread had 21 messages

Oh, maybe I miscounted

Or I did

Things moved quickly at the end.

I can undelete the thread if it helps

3:43 PM

No. I think we can accept 20 as a fact, it came from another mod in the TL.

... I just checked, it had 21, but no room was created.

I found something:

@Justin It is new. It does not block you (currently). It only triggers when you've got two users rapid-firing at each other over a short period of time (i.e. an extended discussion).

If it is created by a bot, it may take a bit for the bot to wake up. It may be dependent on site load, etc.

Who is Justin?

Buffy's theory sounds about right to me.

That doesn't sound right to me. SE is one of the 100 most trafficed sites on the internet, I think they can handle the load.

3:47 PM

@Justin It is new. It does not block you (currently). It only triggers when you've got two users rapid-firing at each other over a short period of time (i.e. an extended discussion). — Grace Note ♦ Jun 21 '11 at 16:33

But if the bot is basically a cron job, not called by the comments themselves, it would take some time for it to come around and move the conversation

They DO handle the load for SO... so...

True. But if it measure proximity of comments to eachother, it has to run at least once every 15 mins.

Sure, that's plausible. We deleted the question much too early in that case

The top bar and the meta feeds to the chat rooms can also be very slow.

So should we run test#2? If so then it would be better to remove all comments from the post, and possibly urrm... but to get it to work the question needs to be the first a user posts.

ugh...

ok, I think I have something.

the migration script is activated when the "show X more comments" is pressed, if there are many comments.

3:58 PM

I did that a few times, actually.

yes, but was X>5 true?

Pretty sure it was. I refreshed and then clicked "show more..."

I think I saw 7 or 9 at one point.

goes back to MSE to research

Can I use this room for some promotional stuff? (Not spam.)

This one?

4:06 PM

yes

Oh k

@BenI. tried to give write access to the test user, but that happened

Aww

GypsySpellweaver Has been trying to do that yesterday.

♦ New User Help Test

Just a test

The wording is misleading.

4:16 PM

@ItamarG3 Oh, yeah, I think I remember reading that only moderators can add users under 20 rep now you say that

ugh.

but what about what it says in the image

the system lied!

No, I think it's more just a description if you check the access panel and see users there, but only mods can actually add people

:(

@Aurora0001 >:(

I will contact my good friend Adam Lear and tell him about this.

Maybe we have too few mods for round-the-clock coverage. My rep changes seem to imply that a fair amount of activity comes late at night (US) or early morn (EU)

T K Sourabh

Hello. Thanks for inviting @ItamarG3

4:25 PM

@TKSourabh glad you joined in :)

I'm creating a gallery room associated to CSE to test another thing

ok?

The room owner can "add" a user without a chat account, maybe adding the user creates on, don't know. But, it still says need 20 rep to talk"

In the gallery room the rep<20 user will not even see the request access button.

What do you mean "add"?

RO has the ability to, supposedly, grant a user write access to the chat room.

This acts like it is working for a user that has posted one question, no comments, no votes, etc. But it still will not override the 20 rep requirement, despite the text of the access page.

Thanks to @ItamarG3 for posting that earlier. I can't make one myself at the moment.

A few hours ago I tried everything I could think of to get a bare minimum user speaking in chat, and nothing worked at RO levels of control.

4:45 PM

This is so frustrating.

I never did create a 'chat' account, directly anyway.

@ItamarG3 did the OP have write access in the auto created room from comments?

@GypsySpellweaver You don't directly create an account; it gets created automatically the first time you join chat, tied to a SE site account (called the parent user)

Anyway, as soon as I see a link to automatically move things to chat on a new user's question\answer, I'll dive into action.

Can our @thefeedmaster create a feed that will be triggered on "moved to chat" comments and post something in here?

I don't think there's an API or feed for chat rooms being created

5:00 PM

userscripts for the win. Not too difficult

Hello World! :)

5:16 PM

The page of chat rooms for the site shows that when a room is created, the description of the room starts with "Imported from a comment discussion on cs educators.stackexchange.com/question/" That should be specific enough for some kind of search.

5:36 PM

@HenryWHHackv2.0 Hmmm. The worst program ever devised. =)

@Buffy It's the worst teaching program ever used. It has a purpose, and teaching is not it.

How it ever got moved from testing an installation to some kind of obligatory teaching first program is beyond my ken.

6:14 PM

Even in the classroom, I only ever use it to test installations :P

@BenI. I haven't tried it in COBOL, but it would be AWESOME.

Here it is: groups.engin.umd.umich.edu/CIS/course.des/cis400/cobol/…

That's pretty long... not as bad as the esolang Mornington Crescent though

6:46 PM

@Aurora0001 Yikes! That's the devil's own coding language. That could be used to show the simplicity of a Gordian knot.

Ellen Spertus

8:30 PM

A moderator might want to step in with comments being used for extended discussion on this question. (I'm as guilty as any.)

@Nat I don't disagree with any of that, but I think it's more complicated than saying "women are less interested in CS" (as you are probably well aware). It's a chicken-and-egg problem: are women less interested in CS because of some "natural" predisposition, or are they less interested because culture shapes their interests? Little statements like "natural interest" might not seem like a big deal, but they're the culture that we're talking about here, and it's relatively easy for us to change stuff like that. That's why I'm calling it out. — Kevin Workman 7 mins ago

Peter

Oh my. Yes, we will look into this. There's a lot to clean up there.

Ellen Spertus

@Peter Oops, I meant to link to the question, not to that particular comment. cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/2942/…

(I appreciate that commenter, not that it affects its relevancy.)

Peter

No worries. We may just move them all to chat to clean it up.

Done!

Now just the clean-up...

Discussion on question by Ellen Spert…

Imported from a comment discussion on cseducators.stackexchang...

8:47 PM

@EllenSpertus maybe I'll move to the specialized chat, but I have to say that Culture is not a relatively easy thing to change. It is one of the most powerful actors on individuals that we ever encounter. I provides both visible and invisible bias and is deeply ingrained. Deeply ingrained. Just look at the "white power" tendencies that have recently come (again) to the fore in the US and Europe, including Russia.

9:31 PM

@GypsySpellweaver Well, actually, the Devil's Own Language is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck

And Hello World in BF is here: esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck