The Classroom

thesecretmaster

12:08 AM

Tomorrow is the first day some of us can get review queues (350 rep). That'll be fun!

Actually make that today. UTC is weird.

Choirbean

2:07 AM

I'm so darned excited that this thing has gone live!!

thesecretmaster

Me too. Also that people are actually using it for stuff. The area51 page says betas should have 10 questions/day and today we've had more than double that. Also, welcome to chat!

@Choirbean Your profile says that you teach High School Comp Sci. As a teacher, what's your prospective on necessity of this site when it could fall into the regular comp sci site or into a general teaching.se site (if such a site was proposed)?

ATaco

CSE was born! :D

thesecretmaster

2:28 AM

Wooo!

Choirbean

I am also an active member of the comp sci site

I don't think they would be at all happy with the kinds of discussions that are taking place here. Classroom techniques, lesson ideas, etc.

There is very little of this kind of discussion on cs

thesecretmaster

@Choirbean I was just wondering because of the discussion I had with a CS mod earlier (above, for reference).

Choirbean

And, TBH, I don't think that the folks attracted to this site would, for the most part, have any patience for the giant number of questions there regarding highly theoretical material

thesecretmaster

OK, glad I'm on the same page. I was concerned that I was backing points that the general users of this beta wouldn't agree with.

@Choirbean I don't know if you're excited about this also, but I was pretty proud of myself for reaching the rep cap for the first time ever, even though I've used SO for over a year.

Choirbean

I was also pretty psyched about it :)

As far as what Gilles was saying, I am sympathetic, but I think that he's really wrong. There is a reason that "Education" is an undergraduate degree (and often considered useless by the people who actually get it), while you can basically ONLY find education in (some very specialized field) as graduate degrees

I've never heard of a graduate program in "Education". No matter what some people insist, great teaching is highly subject specific

For example (and this is true) I used to teach music at a conservatory level.

thesecretmaster

2:43 AM

@Choirbean Oh, thats kinda funny, I go to a proforming arts school.

Choirbean

While there are some very deep-level symmetries to my classroom practice (such as how I treat human beings, my general patience level, and my philosophical approach to students who struggle), the daily classroom practice that stems from that looks almost completely different now that I am a CS teacher

So, same underlying philosophy, almost 100% different practice, at least on the surface.

So, unless we are to only study educatin as koan-like riddles, and derive best practices from there, we are stuck trying to learn and derive best educational practices from those who teach in the same fields

ATaco

I'm personally not a CSEducator, (As such I'm not part of the beta), but I'm excited to see methods used by educators.

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Are you interested in anything related to Computer Science?

Is it really that hard to learn Computer Science?

Choirbean

If you are trying to learn how to get your 1st graders to share, and I respond with a story about how I got my conservatory conductors to properly interpret a Brahms passage, there may be deep philosophical links in how that pedagogy is approached, but good luck trying to use my story to help you get your 1st graders to share.

This is why we need differentiated teaching sites and resources.

ATaco

@HenryWHHackv2.0 Yeah, although I'm not particularly active on CS.SE

Henry WH Hack v2.0

2:48 AM

Ok

thesecretmaster

@ATaco The first day seems to have gone well. There is (so far) 1 question with a negative score and 1 closed question out of 27. That seems pretty great.

ATaco

I'm confident that CSE.SE will perform well, personally.

thesecretmaster

@Choirbean I'm glad we agree about the teaching sites.

Also, an example that is closer to me is teaching color theory for lighting design v teaching color theory for painting. Same concept, very different methods.

Choirbean

I'm eager to see who sticks around here to form the community :)

I have no idea why my Scheme/Haskell question was voted down

Henry WH Hack v2.0

3:17 AM

@Choirbean I may be active.

In the next 20 years.

Choirbean

That's good to hear :)

We need folks in this field

20 years down the line, we'll still need them!

But for tonight, I think I'm tapped out. Good night, folks

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Ok

Henry WH Hack v2.0

5:52 AM

I see that people are voting to close, but I'm not sure why - are they actually suggesting that there are not pedagogic implications of language choice that are not purely subjective? Surely, Java is a better language to begin teaching Object Oriented Programming than C. Different languages have different features, and these choices have real educational implications. — Choirbean 2 hours ago

@Choirbean So it's not an opinion base question?

Choirbean

Not as I intended it, no.

Henry WH Hack v2.0

ohhhhhh

well

I can click retract if you like

That will bring us down to only 3

Choirbean

I'm aware that that's what they marked, but I don't believe that there is very much opinion asked for. I suppose there is some level of subjectivity, but I don't think it exceeds what we have on the rest of the site

I'd appreciate that, but only if you've come around to thinking that it probably shouldn't be closed :)

I want this site to succeed - much more important than my question :)

I tried revising the question to make it clearer what I was looking for

But basically, I am just trying to figure out what the likely effects of a switch will be. I don't know Haskell enough to be sure that it will do what I want, so I was looking for some guidance. From Miles' answer, it looks quite promising

I'm off to bed (again). I do hope you'll consider withdrawing your close vote. I think that questions about language choice in the classroom have a place, and 4 is perilously close to losing the question :)

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Ok

go get some sleep so you can teach you class tomorrow

Choirbean

6:07 AM

:) G'night

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Yeah

thesecretmaster

10:04 AM

@Choirbean That'd be an interesting meta discussion. Mind if I write something up?

thesecretmaster

10:19 AM

Nevermind, it already exists:

2

Q: Language A v. Language B (v. Language C...)

We've now had two questions address this issue: What can Snap! do that Scratch cannot? Scheme vs Haskell for introducing functional programming I can see further questions coming down the line in the same vein, such as the languages that might be stronger or more advantageous for preparing stu...

discussion

thesecretmaster

11:28 AM

Just wanted to point out that we have 25% of our questions unanswered. A good rate is < 10%. Anyone have ideas for how to get more of these questions answered?

Aurora0001

12:37 PM

@thesecretmaster Those figures are cached from a few hours ago; there are only 5 questions unanswered out of 32

And the Processing question will probably be closed soon, leaving 4/32; only 12.5%

thesecretmaster

1:09 PM

Oh. Thanks for the correction, that's good news!

Sean Houlihane

@thesecretmaster Lots of questions is to be expected in the first few days - several coming directly from the A51 proposers. Typical beta activity is a burst of activity, then a quiet period. What is critical is how long before the #q per day gets back over 1 or 2.

thesecretmaster

Oh OK. This is my first beta, so I don't really know what to expect.

Sean Houlihane

@Choirbean I don't think it's subjective. I think the underlying question is 'is this a subjective choice, or are there important differences'

Choirbean

1:48 PM

That's a nice way to think about it

@Sean How long does it normally take for that burst to end?

Sean Houlihane

IoT.se has just got up to 500 vists per day (1.4 questions per day) after 5 months. Looks (and its too early to tell) if there was a minimum about a month ago.

168

Internet of Things – iot.stackexchange.com

Beta Q&A site for everyday objects embedded with electronics to be sensed, monitored, and controlled remotely.

Currently in public beta.

Choirbean

We would expect this site to die down quite a lot during the summer months, and then have far more traffic in the fall

Sean Houlihane

Obviously depends a lot on the reach of the site, and number of potential members.

Choirbean

Teachers :)

Sean Houlihane

Summer's going to be tough to keep the momentum up. People only come back if there is content.

naru sin

1:57 PM

That is true

Choirbean

I suspect that September/October will be a much more meaningful test for this site. If the SE overlords are truly looking for momentum over the summer, then this site is doomed from the start.

naru sin

As a teacher, you can reflect on what you have done over the school year and ask a question about those things in the summer.

How can I improve or do better?

Or for a new teacher, you can ask a question regarding what you should do or teach?

Sean Houlihane

No, I don't think doom is inevitable. They will expect to see some active high-rep users handling the queues (as you probably can now), and so long as it's self-maintaining they should be happy. Target is 3k rep in open beta - needs 3 or 4 minimum for the site to function.

@narusin For new teachers, some good examples would help - google search friendly.

thesecretmaster

9:00 PM

How long until this could go to public beta?

Choirbean

I thought I read about 3 weeks?

thesecretmaster

The email said 1 to 2, but I'd guess the reality would be longer.

Choirbean

@thesecretmaster Do you still feel like my functional language question is too opinion-y?

thesecretmaster

Let me have a look, hold on.

Choirbean

(I revised it substantially a few minutes ago in an attempt to have it reopened)

thesecretmaster

9:05 PM

I just voted to reopen and +1ed.

It's much better now

Choirbean

Thanks :)

I feel like there must be a place for comparative language questions, though we might need to make some kind of guide for them

thesecretmaster

Maybe language-comparison?

Also, do you think that there is room for more "What is a good analogy for x" questions?

15

Q: Analogy for teaching recursion

When teaching recursion, what is the best analogy people use to teach the idea of recursion. There are some nice artistic representations And the idea of repeatedly cutting a phone book or dictionary in half until you find a number/word. The only problem is students don't use phone books/pape...

recursion

Choirbean

Sure, shouldn't those be some of our bread and butter? Finding good analogies is tricky

How do you designate a tag like that?

thesecretmaster

I'll ask one about OO and retag the recursion one.

teaching-analogy

Choirbean

Ya did it again. How do you make a tag designation like that?

thesecretmaster

9:11 PM

What do you mean?

Choirbean

teaching-analogy

thesecretmaster

Oh, [tag:whatever-whatnot] == whatever-whatnot

Choirbean

language-comparison

AH

whatever-whatnot

So far, there hasn't been as much activity today. I don't know if you and I will hit the rep cap :P

That would be a pity, because there are some edit suggestions on the edits queue that I'd love to review before the day is over.

thesecretmaster

I was really hoping to hit 500 today, but I guess not. Also today ends early because UTC.

Choirbean

Eh?

I only need 27 more, so it's still possible. How much more do you need?

Internet points are a stupid goal, but they sure are motivating.

I guess I like these internet points better than Reddit internet points because I feel like, when I get SE points, I'm helping people.

thesecretmaster

9:17 PM

0

Q: What is a good analogy for the Object Oriented paradigm?

What is the most effective analogy that you have used or have thought of to teach the object oriented paradigm? Hopefully the analogy can translate well to inheritance as well, and includes the concepts of instance methods, class methods and properties. Even better would be if it also includes th...

object-oriented-paradigm teaching-analogy

@Choirbean I'm 70 away. I don't really want rep for reps sake, I want it so that I can help the site more with my additional privileges.

Choirbean

@thesecretmaster EXACTLY

thesecretmaster

9:32 PM

Honestly we're not going hit the rep cap for a while. We just took advantage of the initial burst of activity and I think a slowdown from that is normal.

Henry WH Hack v2.0

@Choirbean Congrats your post has been reopened. :)

3

Q: Scheme vs Haskell for introducing functional programming

So, I am not interested in which language is better, because that is a matter of opinion. What I care about is whether making a switch from Scheme to Haskell will directly help me accomplish my goals. What programming language concepts does each language bring to the fore? So, I am seeking inp...

functional-programming language-choice

Choirbean

Thanks :) At some point, we should try to distill what makes for a good language-choice post on CSEducators

thesecretmaster

language-comparison or language-choice?

Choirbean

comparison, but that tag doesn't exist yet.

Do we need both tags?

I suppose they are different things, but -comparison seems like it might just be a subset of -choice in practice

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Well after you compare a language you make a choice based on your comparison.

If that makes sense.

Choirbean

9:38 PM

Exactly. Is there a situation where language-comparison would be useful on this site that wouldn't then become language-choice?

Language-choice can exist without comparison, though, because the question could be more open ended. (eg. "I want to teach a course using video processing, what language would be useful?")

I'm heading out for now - I'll be back a little later tonight. TTY both later!

naru sin

10:16 PM

The site has hit its current low

Gilles

@thesecretmaster language-choice for questions about choosing which language to use in a course

language-comparison for questions about comparing languages, but I don't see many questions using it. Would anyone teach a course on language comparison?

@Choirbean Yes, and don't be afraid to close the bad ones. The internet does not need yet another collection of opinion pieces about language choice.

Stack Exchange's strength is to allow informative returns from experience to shine, and fruitless soapboxes to wither. To make that work, you have to use the tools that are provided, and closing and voting are some of those tools.

naru sin

testing

@Choirbean The example that you gave, "I want to teach a course using video processing, what language would be useful?". That type of question should be flag as too broad/opinion-based for the reason that there is no right answer.

thesecretmaster

10:33 PM

Well, you can cite concrete reasons for 1 language over another. Therefore I think that it is on topic. Questions don't have to have 1 answer, thats the whole idea of competing answers getting voted to the top.

thesecretmaster

10:58 PM

Seems like the evening here in NY is a really quiet time for the site.

naru sin

Same here in Toronto

Choirbean

11:09 PM

It does seem quiet. We also have very few members, so if a lot of them are in a few geographic regions, that makes some sense

Tomorrow I'll send out some invitations

naru sin

I just noticed that we have numerous question on Area 51 regarding this site. Why don't we use those question and post it here and solve it?

Feeds

11:43 PM

Gilles has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

Gilles

A bot will post meta questions automatically in this room

You can ignore it by ignoring the system user that posts the questions

The first batch will appear in a few minutes

CS Educators Meta

11:58 PM

0

Q: Should the undergraduate tag be destroyed?

Currently there is an undergraduate tag. This tag has 1 question. I believe that this tag could be made much more useful by setting a skill level rather than a grade level. There could be an undergrad intro class or a high school advanced class. In summary, should tags references to specific grad...

discussion retagging

5

Q: Are questions about self-learning on-topic?

Are questions about self-learning on-topic? They are on-topic on Mathematics Educators to some extend. Maybe the two discussions on their meta site might be of use. I also found a discussion on Area 51: https://area51.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/25291/ https://matheducators.meta.stackex...

discussion

6

Q: Language A v. Language B (v. Language C...)

We've now had two questions address this issue: What can Snap! do that Scratch cannot? Scheme vs Haskell for introducing functional programming I can see further questions coming down the line in the same vein, such as the languages that might be stronger or more advantageous for preparing stu...

discussion

4

Q: Summer is coming

Here is a (distilled) conversation largely between @SeanHoulihane and I on the chat today: Sean Houlihane: @thesecretmaster Lots of questions is to be expected in the first few days - several coming directly from the A51 proposers. Typical beta activity is a burst of activity, then a quiet perio...

discussion

0

Q: Questions about education on Computer Science Stack Exchange

There is a number of interesting questions about education in Computer Science that were asked in CS Stack Exchange, and didn't receive much attention, or got poor answers. My question is, should they be migrated here, or should they be re-asked? In either case, having spotted one such occurrenc...

discussion

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