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12:40 AM
@harambe Block and Cylinder on Inclined Plane (#5) : I get answer (c). Your solution with JR does not include friction between the cylinder and block.
 
 
4 hours later…
4:29 AM
@sammygerbil aaah, yes, the question specifically says friction between all contact surfaces. Damn, I didn't read the question properly - rookie error!
 
 
1 hour later…
5:33 AM
@JohnRennie Are you there?
 
@Abcd morning.
I'm busy for a few minutes, but only 5 or 10 minutes
 
@JohnRennie Hi, please inform when you are back.
 
@Abcd free now
 
5:49 AM
@JohnRennie Bluetooth on Windows 8 not working so unable to upload image of the question :(
 
There.
Clcik that button to download the media creation tool and run it.
 
@JohnRennie "This site cant be reached"
 
What I do is download it as an ISO file then I copy the install files to a USB pen drive. Then you can do a reinstall by booting off the pen drive.
 
go.microsoft.com took too long to respond.
 
That's odd, I've just clicked the link in my post and it went straight to the web site. Let me try again.
 
5:53 AM
@JohnRennie That loads but not the "download tool now" thing
@JohnRennie See if download tool now is working for you
 
Yes, the tool downloads fine here. I can put the tool on my own server for you to download if you want to try that ...
 
Working now.
 
Ah, just a momentary outage.
Are you on WiFi? The download is several GB and will be too big for a phone connectiion.
 
yes wifi
 
That should be OK then.
 
5:57 AM
uploading from mobile site
 
:46608319 if you connect your phone to your laptop with the USB cable you can use the phone like a USB drive and copy files off it.
 
@JohnRennie Will the charger's usb cable work??
 
Yes
When you connect your phone it should appear in Explorer looking something like this:
 
@JohnRennie My picture is in Camscanner
 
Camscanner will presumably be storing the pictures somewhere on the phone. Usually they go into the Pictures folder, or possible the DCIM folder.
Googling suggests Camscanner stores its images in a folder called "Camscanner", which makes sense I guess :-)
Does your phone have a file manager app on it?
 
6:07 AM
Laptop has hanged
I m using phone now
 
The laptop crashed when you plugged the phone in?
 
@JohnRennie 2 minutes after that
@JohnRennie According to ray tracing image showed be formed on right side
@JohnRennie Then why does the formula give image on left side behind object? (This is the Correct answer too)
 
@Abcd Huh? That can't right.
 
@JohnRennie that's the answer given :"( ..
. And that's what the formula gives
 
Unless it's a virtual image, but even then I don't see how it would be formed.
Ah, wait, the object is very close to the curved surface. Are you getting a virtual image?
 
6:13 AM
No I get a real image by Ray tracing
 
With a regular convex lens you get a virtual image as soon as you get inside the focal point ...
 
That's lens
 
I must admit I can't remember how to do problems like that where you have an interface between two media.
@Abcd yes, but you'll get analogous behaviour from this system.
 
@JohnRennie $$\dfrac {\mu_2}v - \dfrac{\mu_1}u = \dfrac{\mu_2-\mu_1}{R}$$
 
So in this case:
$$ \dfrac {1.5}v = \dfrac{0.5}{R} + \dfrac{1}u $$
Remind me of the sign convention. Are $u$ and $R$ positive or negative?
 
6:17 AM
Anything in the direction of incident ray is positive
 
So $u$ is negtive?
What about $R$. What is the direction of $R$?
 
Please wait have to enable mathjax
 
As far as I am aware, $R$ is considered positive (at least that's how we do geometrical optics here...)
 
Enabled.
2 mins ago, by Abcd
Anything in the direction of incident ray is positive
So u is negative
R is positive
 
OK so for large $u$ we get a positive $v$ (real image) and for small $u$ we get a negative $v$ (virtual image). Just like a regular convex lens.
In this case you're getting a virtual image.
 
6:23 AM
@JohnRennie Why is it not clear from ray tracing
 
@Abcd I guess the obvious answer is that you're doing the ray tracing wrong.
To be honest I've never used ray tracing as I find it too easy to make mistakes.
I need to work now for about half an hour.
 
Yup got it.
 
6:41 AM
@JohnRennie good morning!
 
@harambe morning. I'm back for a few minutes then I have to work again.
 
6:58 AM
@JohnRennie, no problem
@sammygerbil oh okay. I am gonna reattempt the question again. Thanks for the input
 
7:55 AM
@JohnRennie Are you there??
 
@Abcd hi
 
@JohnRennie A biconvex thick lens is constructed with glass $\mu = 1.5$. Each of the surface has a radius of $\pu{10 cm}$ and the thickness of the middle is $\pu{5 cm}$. Locate the image of an object located far away from the lens.
@JohnRennie Can you listen to what I have found?
 
Yes
 
@JohnRennie $v_1 = \pu{30 cm}$ from the pole of the first curve!
But the rays cant go there
Because another lens is in between
So what to do?
 
To be honest I don't know how you treat thick lenses. It's not something I've ever done.
 
8:00 AM
@JohnRennie We just have to consider refraction from both surfaces and not use stuff like lensmaker's formula or lens formula which is for thin lenses.
 
Aha, you do it using the equation in:
2 hours ago, by Abcd
@JohnRennie $$\dfrac {\mu_2}v - \dfrac{\mu_1}u = \dfrac{\mu_2-\mu_1}{R}$$
 
@JohnRennie yes that's the way to do it.
 
and do it in two stages i.e. treat the image formed by the first surface as a virtual object for the second surface.
 
Yes
But here the problem is;
3 mins ago, by Abcd
But the rays cant go there
So its like a virtual object.
So how to handle that virtual object?
 
You're over thinking virtual objects. Treat a virtual object just as if it was a real object. Just use the appropriate value and sign of $u$.
It's probably worth drawing a precise diagram ...
Like that for the first step?
So for the second step the object is a virtual object at $u = +25cm$ from the pole?
 
8:14 AM
@JohnRennie Yes, I got the right answer that way. But if it doesn't exist how can it give right answers??
 
Remember that a lens doesn't know where the object and image are. All it does is change the direction of the light rays that pass through it.
 
Yes
 
If the direction of those light rays is the same as the direction of the light rays that would come from an object at the position of the virtual object the lens can't tell the difference.
The equation is telling you what happens at the lens, so it works fine for virtual objects and images because the lens doesn't care where those objects and images are. It only knows what angle the light rays pass through it.
 
3 mins ago, by John Rennie
So for the second step the object is a virtual object at $u = +25cm$ from the pole?
@JohnRennie then u would become -25 cm...
 
OK, you got the correct answer anyway.
 
8:17 AM
But answer is obtained by using u = +25.
@JohnRennie ^^^
 
The positive direction is the direction of the light.
 
We dont have to consider the virtual object to be emitting light?
 
The virtual object may be to the right of the lends, but the (real) light ray is travelling left to right and the (real) light ray defines the direction.
@Abcd correct. The virtual object is not emitting a light ray that travels right to left.
Always use the real light ray to define the direction.
 
4 mins ago, by John Rennie
If the direction of those light rays is the same as the direction of the light rays that would come from an object at the position of the virtual object the lens can't tell the difference.
@JohnRennie Then there's a contradiction here^
 
I should have said angle not direction.
The point is that a lens just changes the angle of the light rays passing through it.
 
8:34 AM
@JohnRennie are you free for some time
 
@harambe yes, I'm around (on and off) for a few hours.
 
@JohnRennie needed help with some simple harmonic problem s. I am trying those now since I have already have some idea of rotstion and center of mass
 
OK ... ?
 
I don't understand one thing
What force we have to calculate about here
How to calculate here
 
You're asked for the total force the system exerts on the ground.
 
8:48 AM
The normal force?
 
The bottom block is stationary so it just exerts a force $mg$, where $m=4.1kg$
@harambe There are only vertical forces. There are no horizontal forces.
 
Okay
So intially the mean position will be above mg/ k right?
 
It's simpler than that.
 
Can you explain me then
 
The equation of motion of $A$ is $x = A\sin\omega t$ where $A$ is the amplitude and $\omega$ is the angular frequency. Yes?
 
8:51 AM
Yea
 
And if we differentiate twice we get the equation for the acceleration of the block A:
$$ \ddot x = -A\omega^2\sin\omega t $$
 
Okay
 
And $F=ma$ so the force on block A is $-mA\omega^2\sin\omega t$, where $m = 1kg$
 
Yeah
 
Correct. The question asks for both the maxima and minima, and these are $\pm mA\omega^2$ i.e. when $\sin\omega t = \pm 1$.
So the maximum and minimum force on block A is $mg \pm mA\omega^2$
Add this to the weight of the bottom block and you have the force being exerted on the floor.
 
9:01 AM
@JohnRennie I have a doubt
 
@harambe Yes?
 
The lower block feels the reaction of restoring force due to newtwons third law... If that is then I think I understand what is going on
 
Correct. The force on block A is being exerted by the spring, so block A exerts an equal and opposite force on the top end of the spring.
And the bottom end of the spring exerts this force on block B
And block B exerts this force on the floor.
 
Understood. Got it
 
Easier than you thought :-)
 
9:17 AM
@JohnRennie so the force on the ground comes (m1+m2)g +mw2A/-mw2A
It was easier I agree
 
@harambe yes (assuming that agrees with your answer :-)
@Abcd hi
 
@JohnRennie, which online Resource do You consider the best for magnetism and matter as well as Emi and a.c.?
 
@RaviPrakash I don't know I'm afraid. My knowledge of stuff like that is way out of date. The other JEE candidates would be the best people to ask.
:46609911 I don't think Wikipedia is good to learn from. It's a valuable resource for reference, but not for learning.
 
@JohnRennie Then, which resource(s) you came across, and think they are good for learning
Out of date resources are also accepted! :-)
 
@RaviPrakash I can't help with that I'm afraid. When I was learning physics the Internet didn't exist :-)
 
9:25 AM
Oh yes! That's true!!
 
@RaviPrakash there are some good videos on YT by professors.I usually prefer Mr Michwl Van Biezen videos if absolutely stuck... Maybe you can try if you want
 
@JohnRennie One end of a cylindrical glass rod of radius 1 cm is rounded in the shape of a hemisphere. The rod is immersed in water and an object is placed in the water along the axis of the rod at a distance of 8 cm from the rounded edge. Locate the image of the object
@JohnRennie I just can't understand the question. Just need help with the diagram.
 
But now, in past few years you might have came across websites MIT OpenCourseWareâ„¢, Harvard.edu, etc. so which website like it do you recommend? Cambridge? :-)
If you can't prefer now, leave that
 
@JohnRennie Are you able to understand it?
 
@Abcd It's just like your previous question ...
 
9:30 AM
@JohnRennie please share the diagram
 
@harambe okay.
 
The rod is immersed in water @JohnRennie
 
It's just that the source is in water not air so $\mu_1$ is whatever the refractive index of water is instead of $1$.
 
@JohnRennie the rod is cylindrical
 
9:32 AM
@JohnRennie different refractive indices, I guess this is a JEE(advanced) ques
 
I was considering a thick cylinder and getting weird diagrams!
 
Doesn't matter. The optical axis runs along the centre of the cylinder.
 
@JohnRennie please share the diagram
 
OK, it will take me a moment to draw it ...
 
Optical axis? If optical center is a point, that must be a line where ray goes undeviated
 
9:33 AM
Obviously
 
@Abcd it's just that.
So you just use the equation you posted earlier:
$$ \dfrac {\mu_2}v - \dfrac{\mu_1}u = \dfrac{\mu_2-\mu_1}{R} $$
 
@JohnRennie the question says an object is placed in the water
 
The only difference between water and air is the refractive index
In air $\mu_1 = 1$
In water $\mu_1 = $ ... err ... whatever the RI of water is
 
@JohnRennie even glass rod is in water
 
And in both cases $\mu_2$ is the RI of the glass.
Yes
 
9:40 AM
Both object and rod are in water
So how can there be any difference
Oh wait
 
Water can act as a refractive surface too.... I guess that's how this is done
Never mind me
 
That blue colour youve shown indicates glass
I thought that was water
 
No, the water is the surroundings.
 
Oh okay, I got it.... Thanks
 
I left that uncoloured
 
9:45 AM
@JohnRennie if hemispherical paperweight is kept on printed paper, words appear to be raised right?
 
@Abcd In that case the object (the paper) forms a virtual image. You'd have to calculate where it is.
The words you see are the virtual image
 
@JohnRennie do you agree that words are raised or not?
 
I don't know. I don't think I've ever looked at a hemispherical paperweight and I haven't done the calculation.
 
@JohnRennie Look at that^. Won't you say it's raised?
 
The words look bigger. I can't tell from that picture whether they look raised or not.
 
9:50 AM
Hmm
Answer given is "no shift is observed"
But isn't this just bird view?
So I feel there should be apparent depth = d/mu
 
Have you calculated where the virtual image is?
 
Yes
1 cm above ground
I have used the formula for bird view
Radius of paperweight is 3 cm
Let me upload the question and show you
 
I think the (virtual) image and the object are formed at the same place.
 
 
The equation is:
$$ \dfrac {\mu_2}v - \dfrac{\mu_1}u = \dfrac{\mu_2-\mu_1}{R} $$
and $u = R$ so feed that into the equation and I get $v = R$
 
9:58 AM
R is negative
 
Flipping sign conventions. But then $u$ is negative as well, so we get $u = v = -|R|$
 
i get v = + R.
Zk
So* image is on other side above paper weight!
That's totally wrong
No
v= -R
You are right
What about next problem @JohnRennie ?
That's trickier
 
Hmm, that means $u=0$ which is going to blow up the equation ...
I'd guess we consider a small region at the point of contact. Over this region the glass surface is approximately flat so no refraction occurs and it's just a bird's eye view. So the words appear above the paper.
 
@JohnRennie That's right. Thanks!!
Nice conceptual problem!
Even though it was easy ...
 
10:28 AM
How do I find the postition of seperation here
For that the contact force between them should become zero
 
Suppose the blocks are glued together, then the equation of motion is the usual $A\sin\omega t$, and you can differentiate this to get the acceleration.
Or more precisely the deceleration since you're interested in what happens at the upper part of the motion.
 
Okay
 
If the spring and $m_1$ weren't there the deceleration of $m_2$ would be just the gravitational acceleration $g\sin\theta$. Yes?
 
Yep
 
So as long as the deceleration $A\omega^2\sin\omega t$ is less than $g\sin\theta$ the two blocks will move together.
If $A\omega^2\sin\omega t > g\sin\theta$ then the deceleration of $m_1$ will be greater than the dceleration of $m_2$ and the two blocks will separate.
 
10:36 AM
Okay
 
So you're solving for $A\omega^2\sin\omega t = g\sin\theta$
 
I am confused at one thing... Can't the block seperate at any point on the upward journey?
Why the extreme position
 
@harambe yes, the block separates as soon as the deceleration > $g\sin\theta$. This will happen at some point during the upwards travel, not necessarily at the maximum height.
 
Okay another doubt
 
Yes?
 
10:43 AM
John RennieJohn Rennie
16:04
So as long as the deceleration $A\omega^2\sin\omega t$ is less than $g\sin\theta$ the two blocks will move together.
 
Yes?
 
I am unable to understand this statement
How does less acceleration of block than gsin(theta) means two bodies move together
 
To help with the understanding imagine the spring is vertical with the bottom end on the floor and the two blocks on top. Are you clear what I mean or should I draw a diagram?
 
@JohnRennie when we are applying the equstion of shm, we are applying it for the system of block and spring or just m1 and spring?
I am seriously confused here
Ican do without diagram
@JohnRennie
 
I drew a diagram anyway :-)
 
10:53 AM
Okay
 
This shows the situation at equilbrium i.e. everything is stationary. The weight of the blocks has compressed the spring until the spring force $F_s$ equals the weight of the blocks so $F_s = (m_1 + m_2)g$
 
I had a diagram btw. If you wanted, I could have posted it
@JohnRennie okay
 
So the spring exerts a force $F_s = (m_1 + m_2)g$ on the bottom of block 1. Then block 1 exerts a force on block 2. This force is equal to $F_s - m_1g = m_2g$.
So block 2 has an upward force $m_2g$ from the spring and a downward force $m_2g$ due to gravity and the net force on block 2 is zero. So far so good. Everything is in equilibrium.
 
@JohnRennie the block 1 is the lower block right
 
Yes, sorry, I forgot to label the blocks.
OK, now suppose the masses are oscillating so at the instant shown they are moving upwards. Then some time later the two blocks have moved up a distance $x$ (diagram 2 incoming):
The force exerted by the spring has been decreased by $kx$ because the spring has been stretched relative to its equilibrium length. So the force exertd by the spring on the bottom of $m_1$ is now $F = (m_1+m_2)g - kx$. OK so far?
 
11:07 AM
Ok
 
The force exerted on $m_2$ is this force less the weight of $m_1$ so the force on $m_2$ is $F_2 = m_2g - kx$.
This is the force the spring exerts on $m_2$. Still OK?
 
Okay
 
So the net force on $m_2$ is the force exerted by the spring minus the weight of block 2$
$$ F_n = m_2g - kx - m_2 g = -kx $$
 
Okay
 
The net force is downwards (negative) so $m_2$ is being accelerated downwards or put another way it's upward velocity is decreasing.
The downwards acceleration is $F/m = -kx/m_2$
 
11:15 AM
Okay
 
Now if the spring weren't there the downwards acceleration would just be $g$ i.e. gravity
 
Yeah
 
For small $x$ the acceleration due to gravity is greater than the acceleration of block 2 on the spring i.e.
$$ g > \frac{kx}{m_2} $$
So that means if the spring and $m_1$ weren't present the block 2 would fall faster than it does when it's supported by $m_1$ and the spring.
 
@JohnRennie I am getting it somewhat
Consider a notebook and a pen in my hands
Well the pen is kept above the notebook
If the acceleration of the notebook is more then they will seperate
 
Exactly.
For large $x$ the spring pulls $m_1$ down faster than $m_2$ would fall if it was on its own.
And when that happens $m_2$ separates from $m_1$
 
11:21 AM
Okay
Got it
 
@JohnRennie Are you there for 2 minute concept "doubt"
 
So you're calculating the (downwards) acceleration in your SHM system and finding where that acceleration is larger than the gravitational acceleration.
@Abcd let's just finish off harambe's question ...
 
I can do this now I think
Got it
 
@harambe The question has chosen the amplitude to make the question really easy. I can explain how this works if you want ...
 
Sure if you can
 
11:24 AM
OK for a mass on a spring $\omega = \sqrt{k/m}$. Yes?
 
Yeah
 
This should be seared onto your soul :-)
 
Got it
 
The eqn of motion is $x = A\sin\omega t$
So differentiating to get the acceleration we get:
$$ \ddot x = -A\omega^2\sin\omega t = -A \frac{k}{m_1+m_2}\sin\omega t $$
OK so far?
 
Ok
 
11:27 AM
And $$A = 2 \frac{m_1 + m_2}{k} g\sin\theta$$
 
Yep
 
So you get some serious cancellations there!
 
Woah Cool. I am on it
 
$$ \ddot x = 2 g \sin\theta \sin\omega t $$
And separation occurs when $\ddot x = g\sin\theta$
$$ 2 g \sin\theta \sin\omega t = g\sin\theta $$
Now, take note, the question asks for the velocity at separation, and the velocity is:
$$ \dot x = A \omega \cos\omega t $$
 
Ok cool. This question was a major sucker. I am gonna mark this important
 
11:31 AM
And our equation above tells us that $\sin\omega t = 0.5$ so $\cos\omega t = \sqrt{3}{/2}$
 
I can do this now. Thanks for your help sir
 
@Abcd you there?
 
@JohnRennie Yes please see:
Wrong pic
@JohnRennie Why hasn't he considered refraction from lens' first surface?
he's like refracting somewhere in the middle
 
I think he's using the thin lens approximation.
The image of the lens is schematic rather than to be taken literally.
 
@JohnRennie ?
 
11:37 AM
In the thin lens approximation we consider the lens to be (effectively) zero thickness so all the refraction can be treated as if it happens at the mid plane of the lens.
That's what the diagram shows.
 
Oh I see. Thanks.
Wait
@JohnRennie What's the effective shape of the lens?
Like if we were to replace it by a single object, then it would be?
 
The whole point of the thin lens approximation is that we don't care about the shape of the lens.
We just assume that refraction happens in the mid plane of the lens and with some focal length $f$.
If you had to draw it then I would draw it exactly the same way your diagram does.
 
@JohnRennie Why is deviation 0 at optical center but not above it??
 
Deviation is zero at the optical centre. For this ray the entry and exit surfaces are parallel so there is no net deflection of the beam.
 
Got it thanks!
 
12:17 PM
@JohnRennie I have solved the question but I have a little doubt about one thing in your post about the 2 vertical mass shm... Are you free for 5 min?
 
Two cars A and B are moving towards each other with same speed 25 m/s. Wind is blowing with speed 20 m/s in the direction of motion of car A. The car A hears horn by B as well as its ownhorn reflected from B. Both horns hav natural frequency f = 550 Hz.
How is diference in wavelengths received 365? (velocity of sound in air = 320 m/s).I did this by puting frequency perceved by A due to B's horn f1 as 325f/275, frequency perceved by B due to A's horn f' as 365f/275 and frequency perceived by A due to reflected f2 as f' (325/275) or f(365*325/315*275).
To find difference in wavelength I took as (320+20-25-25)(1/f1 - 1/f2), but that doesnt give the right answer. What should I be doing? I have tried this problem in several different ways but can't get the answer.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:41 PM
@sammygerbil Please tell when you are free.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:23 PM
@Abcd free now
 
@sammygerbil please save my life from 1 question
 
@Abcd Sounds a bit melodramatic. What is the question?
 
Uploading
@sammygerbil I am exhausted after attempting this tedious problem twice!
@sammygerbil Are you still there?
 
3:40 PM
Bleh, lens optics... Poor Abcd...
 
@Abcd Sorry I'm a little sleepy after a long cycle ride. Do you have your attempt handy? What method did you use?
 
@sammygerbil Okay I dont want to disturb you right now... please tell me when you are energetic and free for problems.
I'll post my attempt shortly though.
 
3:54 PM
@Abcd I'd be tempted to try superposing two planoconvex lenses ...
 
@JohnRennie Yes the formula for thin lens combination is: $\dfrac 1 v - \dfrac 1 u = \dfrac 1{f_1} + \dfrac{1}{f_2}$
But how will you get f1 and f_2 for the plano convex lenses
 
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