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4:28 AM
@Abcd morning. Sorry for the slow response - problem at work.
 
4:50 AM
The answer given is D. How do I do this problem? I find it very confusing.I gathered that potential of all three must be made the same and field experienced by both smaller conductors is zero, but I don't know what exactly to do here. How should I approach this problem?
 
5:25 AM
@Hema I'm not sure how you'd approach this formally, but charge always goes to the outside of a conductor. So all the charge will be on the outer surface of the hollow metallic conductor C.
 
Ohhhh ok
Got it thanks!
 
5:41 AM
@JohnRennie morning. How are you enjoying your time with your brother?
 
@Nobodyrecognizeable morning :-)
 
@JohnRennie good morning!
 
@Jasmine morning :-)
 
@JohnRennie are you free right now?
 
@Jasmine yes, for about 30 minutes
 
5:46 AM
I dont understand how bisecting a lense changes its focus.
Can you explain please..
 
@JohnRennie I'll ask you later then. Have a nice day. Goodbye.
 
@Jasmine If you bisect a lens but leave the two halves pressed together it doesn't change the focal length. If you bisect the lens and move the two halves apart, i.e. put a distance between them, then it does affect the focal length.
@Nobodyrecognizeable Bye
 
@JohnRennie yes.. if we vertically bisect a lens then we get $2f$ for individual lenses
 
$2f$ surely?
 
Oh yes $2f $..
 
5:52 AM
And the combined focal length is given by:
$$ \frac{1}{F} = \frac{1}{2f} + \frac{1}{2f} = \frac{1}{f} $$
 
@JohnRennie yes.
I have got a question..
 
Yes?
 
Find the location of the image.
I always get confused what will be the object where consequent refraction happen
 
OK, you've got several things going on there. Firstly you have the complication that one side of the lens is in water, and secondly the presence of the mirror.
I would start by removing the mirror and finding the position of the image. Are you OK with that step? Do you know how to calculate the focal length when one side of a lens is in a different medium?
 
@JohnRennie yes i know that formula
 
6:00 AM
@Jasmine is the image created in front of or behind the mirror?
 
$n_2/v-n_1/u=(n_2-n_1)/R$
Before the mirror
 
@JohnRennie Is it done?
 
@Jasmine then that answers the question doesn't it? Or are you considering the second image formed when the light reflects off the mirror and passes back through the lens?
 
@JohnRennie yes i am considering the refraction as well
 
OK. The image formed in the water now acts as an object. Suppose the image is formed a distance $d$ from the mirror. The light travels a distance $d$ to the mirror then reflects and travels a further distance $0.8m$ back to the lens.
So in effect we have an object on the right side of the lens at a distance $u=d+0.8m$
 
6:08 AM
If the image was formed behind the mirror then for the plane mirror will the subsequent image after refraction act as virtual object for the mirror?
If the image was formed behind the mirror then for the plane mirror will the subsequent image after refraction act as virtual object for the mirror? @JohnRennie
 
@Jasmine Yes, although since this is a plane mirror the situation is simple.
If the image forms a distance $d$ behind the mirror (to the right of the mirror on your diagram) the mirror just reflects it so the real image is formed a distance $d$ to the left of the mirror.
 
@JohnRennie thank you!
 
@JohnRennie could I ask you a small doubt?
 
@Hema yes, of course
 
This is a conductor. Why is field near A not equal to field near B?
Isn't field within any conductor zero?
The cavity drawn is elliptical
 
6:15 AM
The field inside a conductor is zero, but we're not considering the field inside a conductor. We're considering the field in a cavity in a conductor when that cavity contains some charge.
 
@JohnRennie ohhh ok
But won't -q charge induce on the inner surface of the ellipse so as to make net field at A and B zero?
 
The question asks about the field near A, which I assume means the field in the cavity near A.
(likewise for B)
 
@JohnRennie isn't -q induced so as to make field near A as well zero?i.e at all points within the conductor?
 
:46848032 yes, though I'm about to start work again for another 30 minutes or so. I'll be done around 08:00 UK time, which I think is 12:30 your time.
@Hema the induced charge is not distributed evenly over the surface of the cavity. The charge density at A will be greater than the charge density at B.
 
@JohnRennie ohhh ok
So basically what points in a conductor with a charge kept within its cavity will hve net field zero?
 
6:21 AM
I need to work now. Back in about 30 minutes.
 
Ohhh ok
 
@Hema inside a conductor the field is zero. Outside a conductor the field may be non-zero. Exactly at the surface the field is undefined.
 
@JohnRennie ohhh ok ok
 
Working exactly at the surface is tricky, because then you have to wonder if charges at the surface should be treated as inside or outside the conductor. In general we can't define the field exactly at the surface.
 
Ohhhh ok
 
7:22 AM
 
@JohnRennie good morning
 
@harambe morning :-)
 
@JohnRennie would you please tell me if my understanding is correct? If the red surfaces S1 and S2 are spherical gaussian surfaces, S2 has net flux through it zero as net charge enclosed is zero. S1 however contains only q and therefore has a net flux. This implies that field within the cavity is not necessarily zero?
And therefore field near A is not equal to field near B
 
@Hema that's not quite right ...
 
@JohnRennie ohhh ok
 
7:30 AM
We know here is a charge q inside S1, so we know there is a net field through S1. That's fine. Note that because the system isn't spherically symmetry we can't easily calculate the field at S1, but we know it will be non-zero.
For S2, we don't know the charge inside S2 is zero unless we assume that the induced charge is equal to -q.
But, we know the field inside a conductor is zero, so we know the field at S2 must be zero because S2 is inside a conductor. That means the total charge inside S2 must be zero.
 
Ohhh ok
 
But the argument is kind of the other way round to what you said. We start with the fact the field inside a conductor is zero, and from that we infer the induced charge.
 
@JohnRennie ohhh ok
But shouldn't field at S1 also be zero?
As it is within the conductor?
That was my main doubt actually
 
@Hema inside a conductor means inside the metal of the conductor.
 
So a cavity inside a conductor need not necessarily have zero field?
 
7:35 AM
It's true that the cavity is within the conductor, but the cavity is full of air not metal and air is not a conductor.
@Hema correct
 
@JohnRennie ohhh ok!
@JohnRennie I got it now
 
8:20 AM
@JohnRennie Is it done
 
@Abcd hi, yes, I'm free now.
 
@JohnRennie why is $(\vec a \times \vec b)\cdot \vec c = \vec a \cdot (\vec b \times \vec c)$
 
Hmm, don't know. You could prove it by multiplying out the vector components. That would be mildly tedious but straightforward.
 
@JohnRennie no physical interpretation?
 
@Abcd see the Wikipedia article. The physical interpretation is that is describes a volume.
Aha, yes, that nicely explains it since the two triple products describe the same parallepiped, just in different orientations.
 
8:29 AM
@JohnRennie Nice thanks.
 
8:49 AM
@JohnRennie imgur.com/a/63Xo1bw.would the answer be (c) because q1 has more field lines
 
@harambe hmm, we did a related problem in this room a while back but I can't remember the details.
 
Okay. Let me search it up then
 
@harambe I think $|q_2| > |q_1|$
 
Yeah
How did you get the relation
 
9:06 AM
Imagine drawing a gaussian surface (a sphere) around the two charges. The desnity of the field lines is greater on the right hand charge, so when you integrate over the surface you'll get a larger number. Since the integral is $q/\epsilon_0$ that means the right hand side must have a larger charge.
 
Okay. That makes sense
Though I find gauss law highly confusing
 
9:30 AM
Is the answer of first part wrong here?
 
Which question?
 
27
I found the integeration of electric field of one part of the ring to be (c)
No on second thought it's coming somewhat weird
 
I'd have to do the integration myself to check and I'm in the middle of something.
 
No problem
 
9:51 AM
The field is $kQ/R^2$, where $Q = \lambda Rd\theta$. Yes?
 
Yeah
It's projection will be circle in X-Y plane
 
And the $x$ component is that times $\cos\theta$
(oops :-)
 
Yeah. Cos(theta)
 
So the $x$ component of the field is:
$$ \frac{k}{R} \lambda_0 \frac{C}{M}\cos^2\theta d\theta $$
 
Yeah. I got the same
Then I integerated it from 0 to π/2
But the answer is weird
 
9:59 AM
$$ \frac{x}{2} + \frac{\sin 2x}{4} $$
 
Okay. What are your limits?
 
And our limits are $\theta = 0$ and $\theta = 2\pi$, and the $\sin2x$ term is zero for both of those.
 
Why is the limit 0 to pi.... Shouldn't π\2 be more easy because of symmetry
 
So the result is just $\pi$
@harambe $2\pi$ - we need to integrate right round the circle.
So I get:
$$ \frac{k}{R} \lambda_0 \frac{C}{M}\pi $$
 
But there is symmetry..... The electric field In every quadrant is same so finding electric field in x direction of a quadrant and multiplying by 4 should do the trick?
 
10:05 AM
What is the $C/M$ term? The question doesn't explain that ...
 
@JohnRennie it's correct
Don't know.....
 
@harambe BOOM!!
So where were you running into difficulties?
 
3 mins ago, by harambe
But there is symmetry..... The electric field In every quadrant is same so finding electric field in x direction of a quadrant and multiplying by 4 should do the trick?
I did like this
 
I don't understand why you'd make the calculation more complicated
 
Well it's symmetry right
 
10:08 AM
$\theta$ goes from zero to $2\pi$ so why mess around trying to use other limits?
 
I just thought doing by symmetry would be easier..... I was wrong herev
@JohnRennie but is my method right?
 
Well you can do the integral from $\theta = 0 \to \pi/2$ and that gives you $\pi/4$
Multiply that by 4 and you get the same result
 
I don't know what I did wrong then....... Maybe calculation mistake
 
What did you get for the integral?
 
Same as you got
I just put the wrong limit.... Stupid of me
 
10:16 AM
:-)
 
@JohnRennie about last question. How should I proceed this
Should I consider two half rings and add the electric field of them?
 
Does that mean a distance $x$ from the centre of the ring the $x$ axis?
 
Yeah
 
Is the distance x like that .... That's confusing
@JohnRennie no. It's in Z axis
 
10:26 AM
@harambe ah, OK ...
The charge distribution is symmetric about the X axis and antisymmetric about the Y axis, so the field is always going to have a zero Y component and a non-zero X component. So the answer is either (a) or (b).
 
Yeah okay. The rest is applying the electric field due to half ring by like charge at axis and multiplying by 2
 
You just have to hack through the geometry ...
 
10:41 AM
@JohnRennie How did he get that equal to $[a ~ b ~ c]^2$
 
If you write:
$$ \left( \begin{matrix} a \\ b \\ c \end{matrix} \right) (a \, b \, c) $$
 
@JohnRennie $[a~b~c]$ denotes scalar triple product.
 
OK. Then I can't see any shortcut.
 
11:26 AM
@JohnRennie when electric field lines enter a closed surface the flux is positive and negative if it exits
Is this convention
 
@harambe it follows from the dot product definition. No convention.
 
@harambe The flux through an area element $d\mathbf A$ is $\mathbf E \cdot d\mathbf A$
Where $d\mathbf A$ is an infinitesimal vector area.
 
Yea
 
There is an ambiguity in the direction of the vector area.
 
@JohnRennie outward normal is taken positive . And outward normal defines the area vector
 
11:30 AM
I'm actually not sure what the convention is that determines what direction you choose for the area.
 
@JohnRennie In that question can't we just take d common?
 
It's mostly I think pointing outwards from the surface
 
1
Q: What is the Direction of area vector?

Ananyo Bhattacharya In case of closed surfaces the area vector is directed outwards the surface. But what is the direction of the area vector in case of an open surface e.g. A thin lamina type of surface. Does it depend upon the curvature of the surface i.e. concave or convex side.

 
1
Q: What is the Direction of area vector?

Ananyo Bhattacharya In case of closed surfaces the area vector is directed outwards the surface. But what is the direction of the area vector in case of an open surface e.g. A thin lamina type of surface. Does it depend upon the curvature of the surface i.e. concave or convex side.

lol
@JohnRennie Can you please see my question
 
@Abcd I'm not sure to be honest
 
11:33 AM
2 mins ago, by Abcd
@JohnRennie In that question can't we just take d common?
@JohnRennie you dont have an idea about this as well?
 
@Abcd I'm not sure what you mean by that
 
@JohnRennie d as a common factor because dot product is distributive over addition.
@JohnRennie Now did you understand?
 
But the dot product is bracketed so it has to be evaluated first. The three dot products evaluate to $|a|\cos\theta_{ad}$, $|b|\cos\theta_{bd}$ and $|c|\cos\theta_{cd}$ so it's not obvious what common factor you'd remove.
Aha, you spotted the error :-)
 
@JohnRennie Ya, $(a.b). c \ne a.b.c$
 
You can't dot together three vectors because you end up dotting a vector with a scalar
 
11:41 AM
ya
 
@Abcd thanks
@JohnRennie that explains the sign of electric flux
 
12:45 PM
@JohnRennie hi
 

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