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07:00 - 17:0017:00 - 21:00

7:35 AM
@JohnRennie can you help me
 
@GENESECT hi. What's the question?
(deleted)
 
@JohnRennie Are you there?
 
@Abcd morning
 
@JohnRennie But why? It was a genuine question right?
 
Not JEE though. Not even remotely JEE. And it was also asked on the h bar.
 
7:44 AM
Okay
@JohnRennie How to find inductance of this system??
@JohnRennie How can we say that there is flux associated with the 2nd sheet when current is flowing in the first sheet?
@JohnRennie I thought flux is associated with loops only, is that wrong, can it be associated with planes and sheets and solids?
 
Inductance is $d\Phi/dI$ where $\Phi$ is the magnetic flux.
 
$\phi = Li$
 
So for example a single infinite straight wire has an inductance because when you pass a current through it that current creates a magnetic field.
Assuming the system is linear $d\Phi/dI = \Phi/I$
 
@JohnRennie ya
@JohnRennie yes
@JohnRennie Lets suppose that current I is flowing through upper sheet.
 
So when you are calculating the inductance of any system you just have to calculate the total flux.
 
7:49 AM
3 mins ago, by Abcd
@JohnRennie I thought flux is associated with loops only, is that wrong, can it be associated with planes and sheets and solids?
 
Anything that generates a magnetic field when you pass a current through it has an associated total flux and therefore an inductance.
 
Not getting man :(
 
We tend to use the term self inductance for single objects, but it's defined in the same way.
 
@JohnRennie Can you listen to me once please?
 
If you have a sheet of metal and you pass a current through it this will generate a magnetic field. Yes?
 
7:51 AM
22 secs ago, by Abcd
@JohnRennie Can you listen to me once please?
 
OK ...
 
@JohnRennie Consider a simple situation: Of an infinite wire and a loop kept in front of it. We are to find the mutual inductance of the system.
@JohnRennie My teacher said:
$\phi = Mi$
So basically do this:
Make current flow through the object you like and calculate the flux because of it through other object.
So we make current flow through the wire
Calculate the flux through the square loop
and end up with something like :
$\phi = \text{many constants}\times i $
Now we compare it with :
$\phi = Mi$
And say:
$M=\text{many constants}$
This is the way to solve such problems.
@JohnRennie Did you understand this^^^?
 
Yes
 
Okay, so how to use this technique in this question.
 
Calculate the total flux in the region between the two sheets.
 
7:56 AM
@JohnRennie Suppose we make current flow through upper sheet. Okay?
 
@JohnRennie Now how to calculate flux through the lower(current less) sheet because of that current?
 
How does the current flow in the sheet? The drawing shows a strip i.e. a sheet that is long and narrow. Does the current flow along the long direction?
 
@JohnRennie its not given in the question
 
In that case I would treat the sheet as made up from infinitesimal strips of width $dx$. Each string carries a current $dI = I/b dx$ and generates the same field as a wire.
Integrate to get the total field.
That seems a hard calculation though ...
 
8:01 AM
@JohnRennie Just use Ampere's circuital law
@JohnRennie Really not getting the physical sense of this question. Just like that flux through two cylindrical wires question...
 
@Abcd possibly, though the field lines around the strip will be vaguely oval shaped and the circuital law works best when you can choose a path that is either parallel or normal to the field lines.
 
@JohnRennie I think solution makes current flow through both strips
 
@Abcd in setups like these it's not obvious what the total flux means i.e. what you are suppose to calculate to get the total flux. In the case of the two wires you take the region between the two wires and integrate the flux over that area.
 
@JohnRennie but why
Whats the physical significance of such questions??
Like that infinite wire with a loop question:
It made sense
When we would change current in infinite wire
Flux will change and emf will be induced in loop
But this question makes no physical sense
Where will emf be induced if flux is changed?
 
Don't know to be honest.
 
8:13 AM
:(
Oh I am so stuck with this.
Let me ask on main then.
 
8:27 AM
0
Q: Physical significance of calculating inductance?

AbcdConsider a simple situation: Of an infinite wire and a loop kept in front of it. We are to find the mutual inductance of the system. $\phi = Mi$, where M denotes mutual inductance. The method we adopt to solve such questions is: Make current flow through the object you like and calculate t...

 
I think what is being calculated here is the partial inductance. That is, you write the inductance of a loop as a sum of the partial self inductance and partial mutual inductances of the elements of the loop.
 
@JohnRennie there is no loop
there are two sheets
 
@JohnRennie good morning. Do you have some spare time
 
@harambe yes, I'm around this morning.
@Abcd take the two parallel wires ...
 
Will you help me with some questions of rotstion
 
8:33 AM
@JohnRennie ?
 
@Abcd Start with a rectangular loop with two edges much longer than the other two. You can calculate the inducatnce of this loop.
 
@JohnRennie that is self inductance
 
Now take the limit in which the long edges of the loop go to infinity and calculate the inductance per unit length of those two long edges.
 
?
 
If we call the four edges a, b, c and d (a and c long) then the inductance of the loop can be written as $L = L_a + L_b + L_c + L_d + M_{ac} + M_{bd}$ where $L_a$ etc are the partial self inducatnces and $M_{ac}$ etc are the partial mutual inductances.
In the limit of very long a and c the contributions from the short edges become negligible and we get $L \approx L_a + L_c + M_{ac}$
 
8:38 AM
What is partial self inductance
@JohnRennie I have zero clue what this is :(
Like L_a ?
Inductance of a wire????
 
If you Google partial inductance you'll find loads of articles on this. I hadn't heard of the term either, so I'm essentially thinking aloud here.
The point is that taking our example of the infinitely long loop we can define the partial inductances as the components of the total inductnace, and the total inductance is well defined.
 
...
 
8:55 AM
@JohnRennie are you free to discuss some rotstion questions
 
@harambe yes, I think we've given up on inductance for now.
 
Can we look at the rotation problem from yesterday
 
@harambe OK
The one about the bar hanging from a pivot?
 
Are you talking about the impulse ond
I can solve this but I have some conceptual doubts
 
This one?
 
9:05 AM
Yea
 
OK, what are you unsure about?
 
When the impulse delivered by the pivot is zero then that means the velocity of pivot and velocity from rotation cancel each other
 
Yes, specifically the velocity of the top end of the rod is zero at the moment immediately after the impact.
 
So what would the rotstion be like... Will it have angular accelerstion and what about centripetal acceleration
Immediately after impulse changes axis
 
Imagine the rod floating freely in space.
If you hit the rod exactly at its mid point then it will simply start moving without any rotation. Yes?
 
9:10 AM
I read some of the questions about this in here. All of them said that body tends to rotste around com whenever there is torque
But there can be rotation around any point so why com..
 
I think he's talking about something else
 
Oops. I misunderstood
 
Suppose you hit the rod as show by the solid arrow exactly at the mid point. Then it will start moving to the right without any rotation. Yes?
 
Yes
 
Because it you hit it exactly at the midpoint there is no net torque.
 
9:14 AM
@AvnishKabaj I suck at rotation
 
Now suppose you hit it very slightly off the mid point:
 
But what about torque about another point..... Isn't torque just direction
We can move the vector anywhere
 
Okay
The torque cancel each other
 
Now it still mainly just moves to the right, but there will be a small rotation as well.
 
9:16 AM
So only torque about com is left which is essentially zero?
@AvnishKabaj is your rotation strong
 
@harambe I'm not sure what you're asking ...
 
Why do we take torque about com only....... What about other points. That's what I am asking
 
What we're doing is using conservation of angular momentum.
You can choose any point to calculate your angular momenta, but some points make the calculation easier than others.
Choosing the COM of the rod as the reference for calculating the angular momentum of the rod is obviously a simple choice.
 
Okay
I am good to go now
@JohnRennie are you up
 
@harambe am I up? Up what?
 
9:26 AM
It's just my way of saying if you are still here.............
 
Yes I'm still here
 
I am not too good In English so some time I mess up xD
 
Your English is a lot better than my Hindi :-)
 
So can you tell me about the centripetal acceleration and angular acceleration
Oh thanks lol
 
@harambe I'm not sure what you are asking ...
 
9:32 AM
When the impulse strikes the rod then the rod starts rotating around the pivot right
But when it starts to rotate the com moves in circular motion
And what force makes is responsible for centripetal acceleration or the question doesn't go deep into this
 
the rod starts rotating around the pivot - the rod starts rotating. The point of the question is that the pivot exerts no force on the rod.
But note that the question is asking what happens at the instant the impulse is applied.
 
Yea
 
So it's asking what happens when the angle of rotation is zero.
For any time > 0 the pivot will start exerting a force on the rod
Obviously for $t > 0$ the rod will be rotating about the pivot, so the pivot will be exerting a centripetal force on the rod.
 
Okay I got it
 
@harambe practice practice practice
Took me a lot of time
 
9:38 AM
I totally didn't understand rotation on my first try... I am trying to make up for that
Imo I suck at physics
@JohnRennie so at t=0 there would be just angular velocity but at t>0 there there will be angular acceleration. Please tell me I am right
 
@harambe it's a slightly artificial situation because we're assuming whatever collision supplied the impulse lasted zero time. Since it lasted zero time the angle rotated and distance moved during the collision are both zero, and the linear and angular momentum changed discontinuously at time zero.
Since the changes at time zero are discontinuous we can't, strictly speaking, talk about the value of any physical property at zero.
 
Okay
Let me send you my progress in this question
 
9:56 AM
I am confused in rotation frame.
Confused about angular acceleration
 
When the string is cut two things happen:
1. the rod starts accelerating downwards i.e. the rod centre of mass stars accelerating downwards
2. the rod starts rotating clockwise
 
Clockwise because of tension
 
And we know that the left end if the rod stays fixed because it's connected to the string, so we know that the downward acceleration of the left end of the rod due to gravity must be the same as the upward acceleration due to the rotation.
 
Okay. That gives me another equation
@JohnRennie are all rotstions non uniform circular motion in centre of mass frame
 
@harambe I'm not sure what you are asking there ...
 
10:13 AM
@JohnRennie in this question there will be angular acceleration right
Changing the tangential velocity
 
Yes
If you calculate the torque about the rod centre of mass you'll get a non-zero value, so you'll get an angular acceleration due to this torque.
 
@JohnRennie so torque is like force. Causes acceleration
Got it. Thanks for your help
 
Remember what I said about the angular equivalent of the second law:
$$ T = I\alpha $$
 
@JohnRennie solved this
 
Cool :-)
 
10:24 AM
But I have a doubt. Does axis of rotstion change as the objecy rotates.... I read somewhere in PS that it does
 
With physics problems there are always two steps:
1. set up the equations of motion
2. solve them
You seem to be very good at step 2 - obviously your maths is very good. It's just figuring out what the equations of motion should be that's the problem.
 
I suck at understanding the question. The rest is easy for anyone XD
 
@harambe Yes, because as the rod rotates the end connected to the string starts moving sideways as well as vertically.
That means the rod pulls the string so it is no longer vertical, and in turn the string exerts a sideways as well as a vertical force.
The motion will get quite complicated.
 
Oh. Got it
 
I can draw a diagram to try and show this is necessary.
 
10:27 AM
If you can then it's awesome
 
The rod will rotate and also switch to and from like a pendulum bob. The motion will be a combination of these two.
 
Okay.
That looks kinda complicated lol
 
Yes, with complicated motion like that we tend to use a technique called Hamiltonian or Langrangian mechanics to calculate the motion. But that's far more advanced than you'd do for JEE. You won't study that unless you do physics at university.
 
10:55 AM
@JohnRennie I have a doubt
 
This is more of the same sort of thing. It's not that different to the rod suspended by the threads.
 
I wrote the translational equation as well as torque about centre of mass but I am stuck at one step. I don't know the magnitude of which torque is greater -the normal reaction or spring force
The rod will be rotating as well as translating
 
If the spring is initally uncompressed I don't think it exerts any force at the moment the thread is cut, in which case you can ignore it.
Oh wait, I've just seen that the spring is elongated by 1cm
 
The spring is elongated so I think it will exert s force as soon as the thread snaps
Burns in this case
 
So the spring exerts a force of 6N downwards
 
11:01 AM
Yea
And I took the normal reaction of the pivot
And did the torque about centre of mass
So can I assume the direction of rotation and final answer gives right direction even if My direction is wrong
 
It's obviously going to rotate clockwise ...
 
I mean direction of torque
Oh shit
 
Language! :-)
 
I am so sorry.... I forgot to read my translation equation. This becomes easy then
Sorry
 
11:15 AM
@JohnRennie I am not able to solve this like I dhd in previous question
I thinknI am missing something
Is it possible to solve this in centre of mass or do we have to take torque about the point of pivot
 
12:00 PM
@sammygerbil thank you so much!
 
@Hema ok. Let me know if you have any questions about my explanation of the solution.
 
12:37 PM
@sammygerbil its perfectly clear :)
 
1:00 PM
@harambe I think the answer is (b) 20N. Assuming I'm correct you can do the question by taking moments about the centre of mass of the rod or about the pivot. I think taking moments about the pivot is slightly simpler though there isn't a lot in it.
I'm out for a couple of hours now but will be back around 16:00 UK time or tomorrow morning.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:57 PM
@John Renie how can i differentiate betwenn a a diamond a piece glass having the same cutting
 
@user57048 try to scratch it
 
@user57048 put it down!
if it breaks ,it is a piece of glass
 
well translated its brolliance
brilliance
thats bad...what if my diamond is small and gets lost
 
@user57048 measuring its refractive index would be less destructive I suppose :-)
 
And also one more question ,the space between two metallic coaxial cylinders are filled with material of resistivity rho .What is resistnace between the cylinders
well how will measure it?
we used travelling microscope to measure ri of glass slab.
but for diamond
 
3:02 PM
@starunique2016 in an open space?
okay I am leaving it to science
 
let the science prove
 
but for diamond what will be the method?
 
@starunique2016 you get a range of fluids with different refractive indexes and put the diamond in each fluid in turn. When the RI of the diamond and fluid are the same the diamond will disappear.
 
Refractive index!
I found a method to check it
what happen to everyone all of a sudden?
 
3:21 PM
acceptable.
 
@JohnRennie Will you be there at 9:30 pm IST ?
 
That's 17:00 UK time isn't it? i.e. in 38 minutes. Yes I'll be here.
 
Ok fine
 
3:51 PM
@JohnRennie are you here for dome time sir
 
@harambe for a bit, but I can't promise anything ...
 
I wanted to discuss the previous question
 
Now?
Was I correct? Is the answer 20N?
 
I solved by taking moments about com but got 6 N as answer
 
Do you want to go through doing it around the COM?
 
3:54 PM
@JohnRennie yeah you are right as always
 
@harambe We do not appreciate the sockpuppets of suspended users using our chatrooms during their suspension.
 
BOOM! :-)
 
@ACuriousMind oh sorry. I did it as mistake but okay
 
Please refrain from using physics.SE chat rooms for the duration of your suspension, or you will find yourself suspended from chat entirely.
 
@ACuriousMind he is presumably allowed to chat here though?
 
4:00 PM
@JohnRennie Suspensions are propagated from the main site account to chat, so this user's main chat account is, in fact, also currently suspended. It is technically already a breach of the "don't use sock to do something you couldn't without them" for them to chat in any room at all.
Since I don't see any reason to forbid them chatting in rooms not associated with physics.SE, I'm not going to look for that, but this room is parented to physics.SE.
 
@ACuriousMind Whom are you talking about?
@JohnRennie its 930. Are you there for Optics?
 
@Abcd hi
 
@JohnRennie Can you also please tell whom is ACM talking about
 
@Abcd I don't comment on any moderator related topics
 
@Abcd I fail to see how that is not obvious from what I've said. In any case, it doesn't concern you.
 
4:06 PM
@ACuriousMind harambe :O ?
He didnt do anything wrong.
 
@Abcd That is not your place to decide since you do not have access to the information moderators can see.
 
Oh okay. Fine.
 
Optics?
 
@JohnRennie Just give me a minute
@JohnRennie Question is to find x such that position of image is on position of object.
 
You mean reflect in the convex mirror to produce a virtual image then reflect that in the concave mirror to produce a real image at the position of the object?
 
4:15 PM
@JohnRennie No first concave then convex
Object and image should overlap.
 
Well you know $u$ is 20cm and you know $f_1$ is 15cm so you can find $v_1$
 
@JohnRennie $v_1= 60 ~\pu{cm}$ from pole
 
So call the distance from O to the convex mirror $y$ i.e. for the convex mirror $u = y - 60$
(we'll need $y < 60$ to make the convex mirror reflect a virtual object)
Then for the final image and O to coincide we need $v = 60$.
So ... erm ... $1/(y-60) + 1/y = 1/5$
Oops, that should be: Then for the final image and O to coincide we need $v = y$
 
4:33 PM
@JohnRennie Are you getting an answer?
 
$1/(y-60) + 1/y = 1/5$ is the answer isn't it?
 
@IceInkberry We are on refraction? Are you ahead? Is optics easier or harder than Electrodynamics and mechanics. Arrange in increasing order of hardness: Mechanics, Electro-StatDynamics, Optics.
@JohnRennie they want $x$.
 
@Abcd lol that's the decreasing order for me
 
@AvnishKabaj You mean for you Hardness order is: Mechanics>Electricity>optics?
 
Ya
Haven't started with optics properly but seems simple
 
4:38 PM
yes you havent started
thats why you are saying wrong stuff
I think optics might be harder
but lets see
 
Our sir said it's simpler than electrostatics tho
 
Oh wow
thats great #good news
@JohnRennie Are you still there? I needed help with virtual object concept
 
Something like that?
 
@JohnRennie yes then?
 
(missed off $x$)
 
4:43 PM
39 secs ago, by Abcd
@JohnRennie yes then?
 
For the second mirror $u = x - 60$ and $v = x - 20$ as shown on the diagram.
$u$ is negative because it's a virtual object
$v$ is positive because it's a real image.
 
@JohnRennie I dont get what this virtual object is at all
I mean I dont understand virtual object concept
 
If we consider the convex mirror (the mirror on the left) then a real object has to be on the right of the mirror. Yes?
 
Yes
 
In this case the object is the image formed by reflection in the first mirror (the mirror on the right) so it isn't a physical thing, it's just a place where light rays converge.
Suppose the image is formed to the right of the convex mirror i.e. somewhere in between the two mirrors.
 
4:48 PM
@JohnRennie But will they even be able to converge there
because other mirror is present
Wont it interrupt
 
1 min ago, by John Rennie
Suppose the image is formed to the right of the convex mirror i.e. somewhere in between the two mirrors.
 
okay
 
Then we can use the usual equation for the convex mirror with $u$ as the distance from the mirror to the image.
But convex mirrors don't form a real image, so in this case there is no way for a real image to be formed at all, let alone at $O$.
With me so far?
 
@JohnRennie ya
 
Let me draw a quick diagram ...
Suppose we have light rays coming in from the right. If the mirror weren't there they would converge at a point to the left of the mirror as shown by the dashed lines, so that's where the image would form.
 
4:56 PM
@JohnRennie ya
 
What actually happens is that the mirror intercepts the light rays before they have converged to form an image and reflects them back, so now they converge somewhere on the right of the mirror and form the image there.
 
Anonymous
@Abcd We almost completed the chapter. It is easy, atleast geometrical optics is easy. Don't know about wave optics. Geometrical optics is almost the same what we had learnt in lower classes except that there are variations in questions. There are fixed type of questions here. If they want to make it difficult, they mix kinematics/mechanics with it.
 
@JohnRennie Oh
 
But in fact the mirror behaves just as if there were an (imaginary) object to the left. That is, if you put $u$ in as a negative number then it will give the correct (positive) result for $v$.
 
@IceInkberry Oh okay.
@JohnRennie oh wow
 
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