Can 'Even' modify the whole sentence?

'the (meritous) famous detectives' is not a counterpart of さすがの名探偵

'at this one' can imply 今度ばかりは?

The answerer seems to come from UK, so is there any rhetoric difference from US?

@EddieKal はい、日本語話者です。初めはWRの日本語フォーラムで揉めてたけど、その後WRの英語フォーラムで揉めたのが原因でbanされてました

英語ネイティブたちの意見を無視とか反論とかし過ぎて（しかも頑固やし）怒られてた

SEは１週間とか１年とかサスペンドするから、復帰できるけど、WRってサスペンドじゃなくていきなりbanなので、「復帰」っていうのは基本的にできないんです、ってモデレーターさんが言うてはった。

めっちゃ何回も「as a native speaker」とか「us native speakers」とか言うてはるしー　japanese.stackexchange.com/…

私は何回くらい言うてるかなと思て調べたら2回だった

@EddieKal Did you perchance mean "rendering" instead of "rending"? :)

おお

目が勝手に rendering って読んでたが

(つうか rending って単語を知らん)

meritousってググったら meritorious ばっかりヒットする

「さすがの名探偵も今度ばかりはお手上げだろう」って聞いて、"detectives" (探偵が複数形)だろうとは思わないなあ・・

@kimiTanaka Hmmm, my understanding was "(Even the famous detectives) would throw their hands up at this one" and the answerer used "even" to explain さすがの

@kimiTanaka Not sure. I just don't think "meritorious" makes sense in this context

@goldbrick Seems I'm no better than that answerer when it comes to dropping letters 🤣

@Chocolate I read about that too. Seems a bit harsh...

@Chocolate いや、そういう単語がないですから🤣

@Chocolate ah! i wondered about that too!

I was picturing like someone making that comment about, say, 毛利小五郎

@EddieKal They explained the relevant use of the term as "accepting the merit of something, but rejecting it under specific conditions", so I think by putting "meritous/meritorious" there they wanted to clearly show that, in that particular example, "名探偵" was the "acceptance of the merit" factor of the equation.

And there's that the suffix 名- more often than not implies greatness (great achievements) rather than simply well-known-ness.

@goldbrick Ahh this makes sense! I guess now what still seems unclear to me is who does the "accepting" in that 大辞泉 definition. Isn't it the speaker of that line, because accepting something's overall merit and then rejecting it is also part of this usage? So I take it to have a pretty subjective meaning, at least in this specific context. I felt like "meritorious detectives" sounded like saying the detectives are objectively and universally acknowledged.

also maybe it's just me, but it sounds weird to describe a person or a group of people as "meritorious"

sounds kind of utilitarian to me

meritorious legal cases, meritorious arguments, meritorious service

hmm...

When someone say さすが(の)XXX, the accepting is done (implicitly) on the part of the speaker, but they usually suppose I think that the value/merit of XXX is objectively justifiable, or at least recognized by the listener.

"I think"が変なところに

I think ”それを否定する” ('rejects it') is too strong a statement.

Clearly, saying "さすがの名探偵も今度ばかりはお手上げだろう" does not indicate the speaker is denying ,on this specific occasion, the detective's merit (the 名探偵-ness). It's quite the contrary. They are saying "Even the great detective will throw up their hands". さすがに doesn't work unless they still acknowledge the merit/greatness of the 探偵.

It's not a denial of it, just an observation that it is surpassed by something even greater.

@goldbrick This all makes perfect sense. Thanks! I understand your explanation about how when you say さすが, implied in that statement is acknowledgement that the person referred to is known to be good, and they have done something matches others' expectations. Btw, I reworded that part to something that sounded good enough to me.

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