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12:05 AM
@silvermaple I'll be taking it, so hopefully I can practice by answering some of them :)
 
Awesome :)
Me too :) What level are you taking?
 
I'm going to try and take N2
it will be my first time taking the JLPT in general though
 
nice :)
I took the 2kyuu the last year it was 'kyuu'...but i failed :(
 
aw :(
 
It was giri giri though, so I hope I'll do better now that I'm studying for the N1
 
12:08 AM
wow, yeah I'm really not confident about taking the test
 
Problem with JLPT is that a lot of it has to do with methods more than Japanese level
 
I had all my other classes to study for, and I had no idea what I was doing, so I'm actually not surprised I didn't pass
@Dave exactly
 
Dave, you mean test taking methods?
 
@Chris: i know that's obvious advice, but more so than with any similar tests, you've got to take a bunch of mock exams in near-real conditions...
 
I didn't do any practice tests or anything, just looked over notes and stuff, it didn't work out for any of my classmates either
 
12:09 AM
I mean that JLPT has all these idiosyncrasies and "tricks" that people tend to get drilled on in order to pass it.
 
gyah, that is lame
 
Yeah, that's why I'm nervous studying by myself, but I've spent some money for some official workbooks, so here's hoping
 
after taking (and failing) J2 a couple years ago, I realised that most of the people in the room (who were taking formal japanese classes) had a much better grasp on how to handle each part...
 
hopping?
 
especially on the massive text comprehension + grammar part.
 
12:11 AM
I think endurance is a lot of it...about halfway through the reading/grammar section everything became a blur, I couldn't understand a word
 
anyway, i cannot emphasise it enough: not grammar books, not textbooks but actual full-length mock exams. otherwise you're just wasting your time.
 
thanks Dave
I will keep that in mind
 
problem is, text/grammar seems pretty much designed to not be completed by a normal human being at the level tested...
 
How about both, because that's what I have, hehe
 
whereas i had gingerly gone through the thing more or less sequentially and tried to do as much as i could... the rule is that you essentially do not read the texts, only the questions (and then scan the text for the answers)
at least that's what everybody else did (upon their teachers' advice), as I found out afterward :|
 
12:14 AM
I wish I didn't have school
then maybe I could practice more
What is interesting is, I got a better score on N1 practice material than N2
I couldn't figure out why
 
bah anyway, it's only jlpt...
but yea, i think it's reasonable to expect to fail the first time you take it, unless you are very comfortably above the level you are taking (which you might)
 
well either way
I hope that the experience will be worth it
 
where are you taking it?
 
San Francisco
if I can get a seat
 
why couldn't you :/ ?
 
12:20 AM
Registration starts in September I think. I'm not sure how fast seats fill
 
usually, you just sign up (around now, i guess) and you get seated in december. not like there's a lottery is there?
never heard of a limited number of seats.
i mean, they have 4 months to organise. if it turns out more people than planned signed up, they can always get a bigger place.
 
i see.
first time i see this. seems US-specific...
anyway, i'm sure if you just mail your application on the opening day you'll be fine.
can't be that many people rushing to take N2 in Cali...
 
yeah :)
 
hmn. I wonder when we get elections for permanent moderators...
 
12:38 AM
doesn't that happen only if we become a full site?
 
dunno...
maybe new pro tem elections then
but JLU has got to be the one site with the smallest number of moderators still alive, while simultaneously getting endless amounts of mod requests...
what is it with Japanese studies that bring out the meanies and the crazies...
ok. off to work
 
1:38 AM
@Dave The extraordinarily large numbers of very, very casual learners. And the environment (anime fandom) that places a very high social reward on knowing very very small amounts.
 
2:05 AM
@ChrisHarris I thought it was mid-august?
 
2:36 AM
I hope the workload will no longer be dumped mainly on one moderator.
@Dave Just in case I haven't said it before, I appreciate it when you try to do something about incivility in JLU.
 
@AndrewGrimm
oops.
@AndrewGrimm Thanks for your appreciation. That being said, some JLU users could do with a little bit of skin thickening. While I'd really prefer the tone to always be friendly and courteous, we just can't mod everybody into compliance all the time...
There are enough outright offensive or abusive comments, that stuff along the line of "not very nice" or "not very constructive" could really be left alone..
 
3:32 AM
@sawa Thanks for the help. Also there is 向かい which seems to be the same as 向こう ? Perhaps this next question should be on the main site.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:21 AM
Are you notified if someone enters the chat room?
 
not usually
not unless you're watching :)
You can turn on audio announcements whenever anyone types anything though
 
Ah~~I see... thanks
 
I feel like being really cheeky
For japanese.stackexchange.com/q/6288/542, I feel like posting a one liner answer
"Yes, resource: dictionary"
 
@Flaw And... has your question about たこ焼き and 焼き鳥 been resolved?
@Flaw www
 
@Chocolate Nope, I haven't done much reading into it.
 
6:28 AM
We say 生ワクチン, live vaccine,
it's read なま
 
I don't think there's an answer to the たこ焼き・焼き鳥 question though. I think it's just the way it was named in the first place.
 
Yeah... maybe.
We say 生放送, for "live broadcast"
 
Maybe 焼き鳥 cannot be 鳥焼き because it would sound too similar to 照り焼き ?
 
it's read as なま too
Hmm...
 
Maybe sawa can explain in terms of phonology. Perhaps some sound arrangements simply "sound better" so they are preferred?
 
6:32 AM
Yeah, but I think there's some rough rule. Something that may not apply to every case.
 
Or maybe that our mouth chooses the "most efficient" method
maybe for やきとり, き→と is a smoother movement than for the り→や movement of とりやき
But it doesn't seem correct because 照り焼き has a り→や also...
 
たこやき・・・is not "grilled octopus",
Maybe we'd call grilled octopus やきだこ。Cause we call boiled octopus ゆでだこ
 
so... たこゆで would mean boiled octopus dumplings?
 
たこゆで・・・・Hmm
Maybe we'd call it ゆでたこやき?
Cos it's ゆでた、たこやき。
 
That would be a rather strange food to eat.
 
6:38 AM
Hahaha~right~~
 
Could you help me with 向かい and 向こう ?
I don't know where those places are with respect to where I am. Are they referring to the same place?
 
We use 向かい to say "opposite," and 向こう can be used to say "opposite" too,
But we don't use 向かい to say "far"/"over there"/"beyond". We use 向こう。
 
So 向こう implies a further distance than 向かい ?
 
No 向こう has several different meanings. 向かい is more like only "opposite"
When you are in a barber, and ask someone "where's the post office?"
And if the post office is on the opposite side of the street,
The person would say 向かいにあります/向かい側ですよ
 
@Flaw: I gave it a shot
 
6:45 AM
or 向こう側ですよ is fine too
 
Hopefully it makes sense
 
If you're not there, say when you're home and talking to your mom,
and you ask her "where's the post office?"
Then she might say 散髪屋の向かい側よ/向かいよ/散髪屋さんの向かいにあるわよ
But not 散髪屋さんの向こうよ/向こう側よ
向こうよ here sounds like "farther (than the barber)", "Past (the barber)"
(too complicated?)
 
I'm trying to understand. But it appears inconsistent to me so it's taking some time to understand
 
Hehe...sorry...
 
Why is it okay for the barber to say 向こう but not for my mom at home to say 向こう ?
 
6:51 AM
So I think this is what Axioplase was talking about in "向こう is objective, and 向かい is subjective."
向かい genuinely describes "location",
Like "something is located somewhere",
I think 向こう is more like "(the other side) seen from where I am now"
"farther than the barber, (from where I am)"
 
I think I understand a little more now.
 
and also because 向こう can be used to say "あっち"
Like....あっちへいけ=go away
You can also say 向こうへ行け
 
But not 向かいへいけ
That would literally mean to go opposite
instead of to go away
 
Right
山の向こう=over the mountain, beyond the mountain
but not 山の向かい
So 4軒向こう but not 4軒向かい
 
"Over/beyond four buildings" rather than "opposite four buildings"
 
7:01 AM
向こう/あっち are more "deictic"(?)
 
四軒向かい would still make sense but mean a different place ?
 
向かい4軒 makes sense, but I don't understand what is meant by 4軒向かい
 
Ah, I should try to draw a diagram to see if I make sense.
 
Ah I just noticed @ChrisHarris posted and took back his post
@Flaw Maybe you can draw a picture here? (I haven't tried yet though...) flockdraw.com
(I'm new to the Internet so I think you must know more about these sites though)
 
I didn't know about that site!
Anyway I'm done with using paint so this is my drawing
 
7:11 AM
Yeah~~
 
四軒向こうのビル would be at "A" ?
 
Right~~!!
 
Would 四軒向かい be at "E" ?
Or would E be called 四軒のビルの向かいビル ?
 
Hmm we don't say 4軒向かい
I think it'd be その4軒のビルの,向かいのビル
or その4軒のビルの向かい側のビル
 
"F" would be その4軒のビルのななめ向かいのところ ?
 
7:15 AM
Yeah I'd say it that way
 
Thanks for your help! Directions are clearer to me now.
勉強になりました
 
いいえ~~どういたしまして
@ChrisHarris がんばれ~~
 
7:28 AM
@Flaw Do you mind if I ask what your avatar means?
 
@Skullpatrol Not at all. It symbolises flawed logic
I normally go by "Flawgic" everywhere else, but it kinda got shortened to just "Flaw".
 
@Flaw Thanks :-)
 
Hi @gibbon~
 
Good morning. Or afternoon for you perhaps.
Weird.. just got a text saying I can pick up my dictionaries at the post office, but amazon still says Belgium, estimated delivery Tuesday..
 
7:43 AM
Double order?
 
I guess I'll be studying this weekend \o Finally finished Genki2 textbook last week.
Just one I think
 
8:01 AM
@gibbon I'll be finishing Japanese for Busy People 1 this term. (Term = 6 to 8 weeks). I'll be a little sad though. My original class disintegrated a fortnight ago.
We started off with a course run by a community college, which had about a dozen students in it. At the end of the course (two terms), there were only three students left. The community college wouldn't teach a class that small, so we relocated to the tea-room of one of the students.
There were three students: me, a person whose wife is Japanese, and another person whose daughter-in-law is Japanese. The goshujin dropped out a couple of months ago, because his wife was pregnant. And then two weeks ago, the teacher had to stop teaching, because she had too many commitments. I was really hoping that we'd finish JFBP 1 together.
 
Too bad, but self-study is quite alright with some determination.
 
I've told the obaasan about lang-8.com . I hope to see her there some time, but I doubt it.
 
Is what I've found even for languages at least.. And I'm terrible at language study.
 
@gibbon is it ok to ask when do you yourself use Japanese? (As opposed to studying it)
 
8:19 AM
@AndrewGrimm I guess I'm not really using it at all. I've gained some penpals in order to practice, that would be it I guess. Otherwise I don't really want to practice with my japanese friends as I met most of them while studying in the US and some while traveling over there while I spoke next to zero Japanese. (so we stick to English) How about you?
 
@gibbon During the Japanese lessons I had with the two other students, we actually described what we did in the past week, or what we would be doing. I'm also practicing on lang-8.com , and also at a Japanese meetup that happens each fortnight in Sydney - there's a good mix of Japanese and non-Japanese people there.
I've also started doing simple emails and bug reports in Japanese. But that's pretty much practice as well. In that I'm doing it because it's polite, and because I need the practice, not because the other person doesn't understand English.
And I've used it when going to Japan.
I've had an attitude of "Use Japanese when I can, use English if I have to". I'd use English if what I'm talking about is too complex for my Japanese, for example.
I used Japanese in the non-technical slides of my talk at RubyKaigi 2011 - ie stuff where it didn't matter if I got my Japanese wrong.
(RubyKaigi is a programming conference)
 
So I've heard.
Yes it's a good idea to use it as much as possible of course.
 
8:37 AM
I want to break down the language barrier a little bit - whether it's westerners learning Japanese, or Japanese people learning English.
 
You deal with lots of Japanese people in your work?
 
No. But as I've probably mentioned, the programming language I use was made in Japan.
 
I see, yeah I didn't know that.
So it has a large Japanese community?
 
Reasonably large. It's popular as a programming language that people use in their spare time, but not as their day job. Because Japanese programmers are more forced to use "enterprisey" programming languages (such as Java) than westerners are.
Whereas in western countries, a lot of people use it for web development (Ruby on Rails has more questions on Stack Overflow than Ruby itself does!)
 
I've never used Ruby, or even bothered learning a scripting language.. though I definitely should have by now. The closest I've got was when I forced myself to learn a bit of JavaScript to hack together this thing: addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/rikaisan/?display=en
 
8:44 AM
That's one reason why I like meeting programmers in Japan - because I myself don't use Rails, I feel more of a gaijin (outsider) in Australia than I do in Japan.
(Can you use "gaijin" to mean outsider in a non-nationality sense these days?)
 
@AndrewGrimm Hmm.. Maybe よそもの?
(And I think gaijin is a derogatory term. I use がいこくじん)
 
9:02 AM
@Chocolate I normally use がいこくじん as well.
 
Do you guys use "gaijin" to mean "outsider" at where you are? In Japan we don't.
 
9:24 AM
@AndrewGrimm I would say よそもの for "outsider" in that context, or as a sentence 浮[う]いてる気がする/浮いてる感じがする. I don't think gaijin has ever been used to refer to an outsider in a non nationality sense. In Japan, I mean.
 
Do you have a word for "people who don't fit into some group or society as a whole"? (hikokimori for the last part I guess, but something more general)
Maybe that would be よそもの?
 
hikokimori? Maybe hikikomori(引きこもり/引き籠り=someone who never goes out, stays home all day, like "neet", or maybe because of depression/mental illness etc.)?
I think it can be referred to as よそもの、部外者[ぶがいしゃ],
If someone's left out of a group, excluded from a group, we'd say 仲間外れ[なかまはずれ]
You can also describe someone who can't really fit into a group by verbs(?) like 浮[う]いてる, or maybe 馴染[なじ]めない
 
9:40 AM
Lots of words for people who don't fit in. :)
 
Haha... yeah 浮いてる for this meaning is quite colloquial I think
浮いている literally/originally means 'is floating'
 
10:03 AM
I feel guilty breaking into the conversation between gibbon and Andrew, maybe I sounded like blaming him for using the term gaijin by saying it was a derogatory term.
I hope I didn't hurt his feeling
 
I think that conversation was over already, so don't worry about it. And I'm sure Andrew already knew it was a derogatory term, but wondered if it was ok to use in other contexts to mean outsider when nationality was not involved. (made me wonder at least)
 
@Chocolate Wikipedia claimed that it used to be used in a non-nationality sense en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaijin#Etymology_and_history
I actually asked about the word last December. I hit the Sawa wall, but not too hard. japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/4131/…
 
11:14 AM
@gibbon to make it slightly more difficult to close - unless diamond mod superpowers are invoked, people will have to wait a week, and then decide whether or not to close it. If an awesome answer comes along, maybe the community will decide to keep the question unclosed.
 
 
4 hours later…
3:01 PM
Morning all :)
or afternoon, or evening, depending on where the sun is where you are :)
 
3:19 PM
Hi @silvermaple, morning
 
3:42 PM
Hey @Flaw
 
4:25 PM
Anyone here good with math? I just got hit badly by trying to understand infinity
 
cardinality?
 
I have no idea what that is
 
It's the usual trouble people have with infinity
 
I'm trying to understand "gravitational potential energy" right now
 
basically... "certain infinities are more infinite than others"
 
4:27 PM
 
gravitational potential energy of a mass at a point is defined as the work done from bringing an object from infinity to that point
 
ok, there's a video...it's in English, let's see if i can find it...it might be too simple for you though
 
Which is also the area under the force-distance graph
if I try to integrate from infinity to that point
my brain explodes
 
He kind of talks fast though
I understand it until about 1:10
 
@silvermaple My brain blew up at 36 seconds
 
4:31 PM
@silvermaple 99.9% of the time when someone has trouble with infinity, cardinality is the issue... that doesn't appear to be the case this time though
 
@jkerian Oh, I don't know what you mean
I thought that was less complicated then what @Flaw was asking
 
@Flaw If I'm right... you're having trouble believing that the integral of f(x) with x from Y to infinity can be anything other than infinity?
 
Yes something along those lines
My current argument in my mind is
If I use a pen to shade the area
Every time I move rightwards, I have new area to shade, and I will deplete the ink in my pen
this continues endlessly, and I would spend an infinite amount of ink
 
Hmm... how to explain this.... it's the same as the man who starts 1m away from a wall, and moves half the distance towards it
then half again, then half again... never closing more than half the distance... since he's always moving (for an infinite amount of time), he'll obviously move an infinite amount of distance, right? (obviously wrong in this case)
 
But he will never exceed the 1m wall because he keeps halving the distance
 
4:41 PM
In mathematics, a series is the sum of the terms of a sequence of numbers. Given a sequence \left \{ a_1,\ a_2,\ a_3,\dots \right \}, the nth partial sum S_n is the sum of the first n terms of the sequence, that is, :S_n = \sum_{k=1}^n a_k. A series is convergent if the sequence of its partial sums \left \{ S_1,\ S_2,\ S_3,\dots \right \} converges. In more formal language, a series converges if there exists a limit \ell such that for any arbitrarily small positive number \varepsilon > 0, there is a large integer N such that for all n \ge \ N, :\left | S_n - \ell \right \vert \le \ \v...
 
So for a graph of y=1/x
I could find a finite area from integrating from 0 to infinity?
 
The heck? did I get turned into a system-wide chat admin just now?
I was just asked if an admin flag was valid in another room
@Flaw I'm pretty sure that one diverges
 
Which means I would get an infinite area?
 
pretty sure gravity isn't linear...
1/r^2 converges
in fact... I seem to recall 1/x^K (with K>1) converges... and that's actually fairly important
 
Yes it is GM<sub>1</sub>M<sub>2</sub>/r^2
 
4:53 PM
Quick question, anyone know of a (preferably historical, perhaps no longer in use) derogatory term for servant/slave?
 
In English? Or Japanese?
 
Japanese :)
 
Can't help you much there
 
5:07 PM
I don't get it
isn't 奴隷 derogatory by default
simply because of 奴?
 
well but 貴様 has 貴, and it's not honorific by default
 
good point
 
Math and 1:15am does not go well together.
 
what are you learning?
 
My vocabulary is tiny, I didn't even know of 奴隷. It's good though, thanks. :) 奴.. I just got my kanji (learners) dictionary today, but I can't find it. Is this an odd one?
 
5:20 PM
I'm not sure
I think its 奴
やつ
yep
 
Yes rikaisan plugin picks it up, I'd just like a more detailed explanation.
 
gibbon, how do you study?
 
Oh no this is not for my studies.. I got my raspberry pi today and I'm trying to think of a name for it. Thought servant would suit it well. dorei just sounds kind aboring though... perhaps tsubune or yatsuko?
 
oh, ahaha
 
 
3 hours later…
8:28 PM
@gibbon hmm... I may need to get a few of those
 
Servants? yes
 
those too
 
I always thought I shouldn't own a TV in Japan..
 
8:40 PM
@jkerian I think all the super-early adopters got one already, and they're still dirt cheap. ;) I got mine just a week or two after ordering and I don't even think you need to "register interest" and all that bs anymore.
What I'm saying is, no reason not to order one right now!
 

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